1966 Topps 6th Series/Semi-Hi's

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

I'm not completely sure how we came up with Wood or Edwards being RE cards. I had the Carreon/Edwards listed a vertical pair, but I can't find the MC where that was firmly established and I have nothing on Wood.

My counts support Aaron & Gonzalez as being 4x, and Nuxhall as being indeterminate, but the other 4 (Cubs, Moeller, Skinner, Fox) as being 3x

Here is Wood over the Giants Rookies and what is all but certainly Edwards over Carreon - when you look at all the other cards it could possibly be, Carreon is the only possibility but there is an anomaly in that the Carreon card has a white space to the left of the Orioles banner - any other cards in the 6th that this image below Edwards could possibly be?

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

Is it certain that Steve Hamilton is under Carreon, couldn’t it be another Dodger/Yankee with blue sky?

When looking at the Carreon over what I concluded was Hamilton, both the positioning of the visible "S" relative to the letters in "Carreon" as well as the positioning of the orange box on the reverse seems to only be possible with Hamilton, but please take yours and do an in-hand comparison - as much as I want to make progress, I'd prefer to go back to a drawing board than to go down a wrong path.

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

I only have this for Carreon, so it could be Hamilton, Ferrara, Friend, Podres.

Can't be Richardson or Moeller or yanks RS

Attachment 614300

Pretty certain it can't be Friend with that artificial deep blue behind him - looks like a primitive cut and paste job - must have been some busy or objectionable activity behind him.

[Cliff Bowman]

Is this Wood under the Checklist?

[deweyinthehall]

I think so - the small patch of lighter coloring near the top right is the giveaway, I think.

[Kevvyg1026]

I think so, as well

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Pretty certain it can't be Friend with that artificial deep blue behind him - looks like a primitive cut and paste job - must have been some busy or objectionable activity behind him.

You're right. I found the original photo Topps used on the Bob Friend card, and I agree, the background seems to be waaaaaay too busy...

1966bobfriendbackground.jpg

[deweyinthehall]

Oh, the humanity

[Cliff Bowman]

After looking at blown up scans of the Carreon miscut and comparing it to Steve Hamilton I agree that it is Steve Hamilton under Carreon and Carreon is a right edge card. Next I will have to re-examine the Edwards miscut and see if it is Carreon, I think I originally figured it was the only Oriole/Astro possible from the 6th Series.

[Cliff Bowman]

Unless that is a color different than the lime green of the Astros and the Orioles it has to be Carreon, no other Astro or Oriole in the 6th Series is anywhere close to the sliver of the card under Edwards.

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

Unless that is a color different than the lime green of the Astros and the Orioles it has to be Carreon, no other Astro or Oriole in the 6th Series is anywhere close to the sliver of the card under Edwards.

The only other color it could conceivably be is gray amd no Indians or Phillies match.

I think it is Carreon - by the time you move from the right edge to the left limit of the green banner the space is barely wider than the black border line. By the time you reach the left edge it is no wider. I think you can see some enough lighter patches in between to make the rest of the anomaly the result of the fuzziness of the imahe.

Does this make any sense?

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

I recall seeing a miscut of check 7 (series 6 printing) that has, what looked like a either a team card or Rookie card above it, but the coloring was off (almost looked blue), suggesting a color shift. I don't have that MC though. When I saw that miscut, someone suggested that the card might be a color shifted A's team?? Boy, I wish I had a scan of that MC now.

It's from way back in the 1966 7th Series thread in 2020. It won't let me download a scan of it, it's on post #292 of this page. I am assuming it's the Giants Rookie Stars card.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...=258947&page=6

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

With this, I think we have all 7 LE and RE cards.

LE:
Aaron
Nuxhall
Fox
Moeller
Skinner
Gonzalez
Cubs Rookies

RE:
6th Checklist
7th Checklist
Hamilton
Wood
Giants Rookies
Carreon
Edwards

Please check my 'math', but I think this is accurate.
Granted we still have no idea which ones are on which rows, but still....

Since we pretty much have these established as being correct I would now say the three 4x LE cards are Aaron, T Gonzalez, Nuxhall, and the three 4x RE cards are S Hamilton, Giants Rookie Stars, and (probably) Carreon.

[Kevvyg1026]

In retrospect, that looks like the Giants RS card above the checklist

[Kevvyg1026]

I was able to download a copy from the older post.

1966_517_series_6_card above.jpg

[Cliff Bowman]

Frank Howard has a Tiger or Cardinal above him.

[Kevvyg1026]

Well, it shouldn't be: 471 (LE), 472 (LE), or 509 (RE).

So, that leaves 454 (Buchek), 455 (Lolich), 489 (Simmons, with Oliva above him), 495 (McAuliffe), or 514 (Woodeshick).

We do have a vertical sequence of Howard above Oliva, and Oliva above Simmons, so Howard and Simmons are in the same column. But that close sequence might make it difficult to have Simmons as the card above Howard.

[Kevvyg1026]

Is it my imagination, or does that yellow above Howard appear to extend to the edge of the card?

1966_515_yellow above_1.jpg

[deweyinthehall]

I don't think it goes to the edge, but on both these images it certainly extends beyond the Howard image, which is odd enough. If you look at the first Howard image the yellow seems to start further to the left as well, which make is appear the upper card is completely offset to the left by a couple millimeters - that's weird.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

I don't think it goes to the edge, but on both these images it certainly extends beyond the Howard image, which is odd enough. If you look at the first Howard image the yellow seems to start further to the left as well, which make is appear the upper card is completely offset to the left by a couple millimeters - that's weird.

I noticed that too, the Howard card might be slightly oversized. ETA: that yellow might be a color separation/registration issue, something to keep in mind later.

[deweyinthehall]

I went back and looked through some of the 'indeterminate' miscuts we have and was able to place just this one - Terry Fox is beneath the Cubs Rookies on at least one slit - the Cubs rookies is the only non-player card in the 1st column with Fox.

So, baby steps.

[deweyinthehall]

Having some time to kill, I tried something I thought would be non-productive. We have a Dennis Bennett card showing a slight piece of the card to his left.

I decided to take a run through the 6th series so see if it was possible at all to narrow down the possible cards it could be.

Turns out, the vertical and horizontal placement of the trademark line on the orange field cuts the 76 possibilities down to about 6 immediately, and then closer inspection, and comparison with an actual Bennett card for alignment, suggests a single candidate - Al Ferrara.

Take a look and let me know if you think there is any other card you think it might be other than Ferrara.

[Cliff Bowman]

O’Donoghue is inarguably a 4x card who has two different cards above him, that means at least one of the three 4x rows has two different rows above it and at least one of those rows is 3x because it has Jimenez. I looked at every miscut LE and RE scan we have but unfortunately I couldn’t find any with a different card than what is already known.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Having some time to kill, I tried something I thought would be non-productive. We have a Dennis Bennett card showing a slight piece of the card to his left.

I decided to take a run through the 6th series so see if it was possible at all to narrow down the possible cards it could be.

Turns out, the vertical and horizontal placement of the trademark line on the orange field cuts the 76 possibilities down to about 6 immediately, and then closer inspection, and comparison with an actual Bennett card for alignment, suggests a single candidate - Al Ferrara.

Take a look and let me know if you think there is any other card you think it might be other than Ferrara.

I hope you’re right, we need horizontal matches to start linking up the vertical runs.

[Kevvyg1026]

So fox is below Cubs rs and below nuxhall, correct?

[deweyinthehall]

Yes - I believe that's what the miscuts show.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

So fox is below Cubs rs and below nuxhall, correct?

Nuxhall is one of the few players in the 6th Series that has a smaller than normal top oval at the top of the back of the card, Klippstein has the same thing. It is the same size as the Rookie Star cards and the manager cards.

[Kevvyg1026]

Are you suggesting that Gonzalez is over Klippstein rather than Nuxhall? These miscuts appear to suggest that both the Cubs RS and Nuxhall are LE card, and Gonzalez is clearly under Cubs RS.


1966_478_482_TC_1.jpg

1966_482_wavy_LE.jpg

1966_483_LE.jpg

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Are you suggesting that Gonzalez is over Klippstein rather than Nuxhall? These miscuts appear to suggest that both the Cubs RS and Nuxhall are LE card, and Gonzalez is clearly under Cubs RS.

Not at all, I’m saying a sliver of a back miscut of a Nuxhall would be similar to the Cubs Rookie Stars card.

[deweyinthehall]

I haven't looked too deeply into it, but last year I did run pop counts for this series across eBay, Deans, COMC and PSA.

Looking at the numbers I came up with I wonder whether there isn't a third level of quantities - like in the 1967 7th series with something like 5x, 3x and 2x or whatever it was. I can't see any clear breaks which would suggest that it can be divided neatly into 3 4x's and 4 3x's. It seems like a steady consistent upward slope in counts from the obvious lowest (Moeller, Cubs Rookies etc. ) to the obvious highest (O'Donoghue, Hannan, Stigman etc.).

I also saw a lot of incongruities between the numbers, particularly eBay and PSA.

You've gone through exercises like this more than I have, so I'm interested to know what your thoughts are.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

I haven't looked too deeply into it, but last year I did run pop counts for this series across eBay, Deans, COMC and PSA.

Looking at the numbers I came up with I wonder whether there isn't a third level of quantities - like in the 1967 7th series with something like 5x, 3x and 2x or whatever it was. I can't see any clear breaks which would suggest that it can be divided neatly into 3 4x's and 4 3x's. It seems like a steady consistent upward slope in counts from the obvious lowest (Moeller, Cubs Rookies etc. ) to the obvious highest (O'Donoghue, Hannan, Stigman etc.).

I also saw a lot of incongruities between the numbers, particularly eBay and PSA.

You've gone through exercises like this more than I have, so I'm interested to know what your thoughts are.

I think there are too many confirmed 4x cards for there to be a 5x, 4x, 3x, 3x, 3x, 3x, 3x situation like the 1967 7th Series, but it is odd to me why there are currently 220 listings of Steve Hamilton and 90 listings of Camilo Carreon on eBay if they are both on 4x rows.

[Cliff Bowman]

I thought for sure that it was Pirates Rookie Stars under Schofield but when I compared the miscut to a #498 Pirates Rookie Stars card the white in the corner didn't match Woodie Fryman's black sleeve, so I looked at what other Rookie Stars cards there are in the Series and forgot there is a Red Sox, it has the same color as the Pirates and the white of Joe Foy's uniform matches the white in the corner so I'm positive #456 Red Sox Rookie Stars is under Dick Schofield.

[deweyinthehall]

Couple new ones by Battersbox today -

Manny Jimenez under what appears to be a Red or Twins (we also have him beneath an Angel or Brave).

Also, Tony Gonzalez is on the top of at least one slit - this gives us 4 cards in a top row - Gonzalez, Aaron, Lolich and Wynn.

[deweyinthehall]

With the Schofield over the Red Sox rookies, we now have 6 of 7 in another column - Schofield, Red Sox Rookies, Gibbon, Braves Rookies, Coleman, Hannan.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

With the Schofield over the Red Sox rookies, we now have 6 of 7 in another column - Schofield, Red Sox Rookies, Gibbon, Braves Rookies, Coleman, Hannan.

I keep forgetting there are only seven cards in each column, in my mind I keep thinking there are twelve. If we can figure out the seven cards in most of the eleven columns this Series might be doable after all.

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

I keep forgetting there are only seven cards in each column, in my mind I keep thinking there are twelve. If we can figure out the seven cards in most of the eleven columns this Series might be doable after all.

Enough over/unders will let us ID the columns - it's the rows that seems like it will be tough - estimates will be possible based upon pop counts, but...

[Cliff Bowman]

Vic Roznovsky is under Steve Barber, it's an Astro/Oriole under Barber with a flaw near the right edge of the top border line that matches every Roznovsky card.

[Cliff Bowman]

I don't think anyone has called this one yet, it is a Dodger/Yankee under Wynn and the only cards as of now it can be are Ferrara and Friend, I am very confident it is Ferrara because it looks like real sky unlike the Friend with the fake blue background and there is a miscut Friend with a Cub/White Sox above him. The only possibility of it being Friend is he has two different rows above him which I very highly doubt so I am going to call it Ferrara.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

With the Schofield over the Red Sox rookies, we now have 6 of 7 in another column - Schofield, Red Sox Rookies, Gibbon, Braves Rookies, Coleman, Hannan.

That was my bad on earlier having Schofield above Braves Rookie Stars, it is Schofield above Red Sox Rookie Stars so we have two separate vertical combos of:

Hannan
Schofield
Red Sox Rookie Stars

and

Gibbon
Braves Rookie Stars
Coleman

[Cliff Bowman]

I believe these are the current vertical combos we have in the interior not including the LE and the RE cards:

Phillie-Indian
Barber
Roznovsky
Kline

F Howard
Oliva
Simmons
Ellsworth

Hannan
Schofield
Red Sox Rookie Stars

Dodger/Yankee
Richardson
B Rodgers

Cannizzaro
Belinsky
Wyatt

Gibbon
Braves Rookie Stars
Coleman

Bunker
Bob Lee

Buford
Latman

Red/Twin
Yankees Rookie Stars
Bressoud

Blefary
Klippstein

Brave/Angel
Jimenez
O'Donoghue

Wynn
Ferrara

Hatton
Athletics Team

[Kevvyg1026]

1. Wasn't there that strange miscut of Howard, with yellow above, i.e., Card/Tiger but the coloring went close to the edge?

2. isn't there a Brave/Angel or perhaps an Indian/Phil under Coleman?

3. There is a MC of Azcue, which had been tentaively, but not conclusively, identifed as Buford.

4. A card or Tiger is below Klippstein.

5. Indian/Phil may be above Wynn.

6. Radatz appears to be above Rollins

7. A top Mc of Covington appears to have a Phil/Indian. A bottom Mc of Covington might have a Cub/WS below him

8. McAuliffe appears to have a Twin/Red below him

9. A pirate or Red Sox is above Bailey

10. A pirate/Red Sox is above Ken Johnson

11. A WS or Cub is above Hargan (508)

12. I can't definitely say, but there might be Indian/Phil above Lenny Green (502)

14. A Senator or Giant is above Linz (522)

15 A twin/Red is also above O'donoghue

16. Phillies team has Indian-Phil above it

17. Pirate or Red Sox above McDaniel

18. There is a card below George Banks that hasn't been positively identified but may be Indian/Phil

19. A Twin/Red is above Tommy John

20. There is a coloring band I can't identify above Bob Rodgers

[deweyinthehall]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

That was my bad on earlier having Schofield above Braves Rookie Stars, it is Schofield above Red Sox Rookie Stars so we have two separate vertical combos of:

Hannan
Schofield
Red Sox Rookie Stars

and

Gibbon
Braves Rookie Stars
Coleman

I think you're wrong about being wrong - check out post 29 in this thread - there's an image of Schofield over the Braves Rookie stars, no? I don't think it can be another team. So in one instance he's over the Bosox and in another the Braves - this means the column of 6 is still alive.

[Kevvyg1026]

If you blow that Schofield MC up, it looks more like the violet of the Red Sox than the lavender of the Braves, IMO

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

1. Wasn't there that strange miscut of Howard, with yellow above, i.e., Card/Tiger but the coloring went close to the edge?

2. isn't there a Brave/Angel or perhaps an Indian/Phil under Coleman?

3. There is a MC of Azcue, which had been tentaively, but not conclusively, identifed as Buford.

4. A card or Tiger is below Klippstein.

5. Indian/Phil may be above Wynn.

6. Radatz appears to be above Rollins

7. A top Mc of Covington appears to have a Phil/Indian. A bottom Mc of Covington might have a Cub/WS below him

8. McAuliffe appears to have a Twin/Red below him

9. A pirate or Red Sox is above Bailey

10. A pirate/Red Sox is above Ken Johnson

11. A WS or Cub is above Hargan (508)

12. I can't definitely say, but there might be Indian/Phil above Lenny Green (502)

14. A Senator or Giant is above Linz (522)

15 A twin/Red is also above O'donoghue

16. Phillies team has Indian-Phil above it

17. Pirate or Red Sox above McDaniel

18. There is a card below George Banks that hasn't been positively identified but may be Indian/Phil

19. A Twin/Red is above Tommy John

20. There is a coloring band I can't identify above Bob Rodgers

1. I would put an asterisk next to that one, the yellow might be a color separation/registration issue.

5. Haven't seen that one.

6. You're right, I missed that one.

12. Definitely a Phillie/Indian.

18. Haven't seen that one.

20. I think it's safe to say that Yankee/Dodger is Richardson.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

If you blow that Schofield MC up, it looks more like the violet of the Red Sox than the lavender of the Braves, IMO

Yes, that is correct, it is the Red Sox Rookie Stars and I was wrong when I originally said it was Braves Rookie Stars in post #29. It's the same scan I just flipped it on its side later on.

[Cliff Bowman]

I'm pretty sure that is Stigman above Bailey because that color band has irregularities that seem to match Stigman but I don't know if I can call it.

[Kevvyg1026]

That Stigman card has a lot going on. Looks like a Red Sox or Pirate is to his right.

Here are Wynn and Banks miscuts.

1966_banks.jpg

1966_520_TC.jpg

[Kevvyg1026]

Here are the Covington miscuts

1966_484_miscuts.jpg

[Kevvyg1026]

Found this miscut Buchek (454). The dot at the top appears to match the recurring dot Cliff mentioned that is on the Phillies TC (463).

1966_454_Top_dot_463.jpg

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Found this miscut Buchek (454). The dot at the top appears to match the recurring dot Cliff mentioned that is on the Phillies TC (463).

Attachment 614980

Great catch!