Brooklyn CDV

[GaryPassamonte]

The one thing that keeps coming back to me about this CdV is why the individual that put it on ebay started it at $.99 and why he didn't take one of the many substantial offers he had for it at that time. If he was trying to perpetuate a fraud, he would have taken the money and run.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

The one thing that keeps coming back to me about this CdV is why the individual that put it on ebay started it at $.99 and why he didn't take one of the many substantial offers he had for it at that time. If he was trying to perpetuate a fraud, he would have taken the money and run.

The disclosure from the auction house says the person who put it on eBay did take one of the offers he had for it.

[GaryPassamonte]

Back to square one, Corey.

[Saco River Auction]

Due to overwelming speculation and debate I have decided to heed the advice of one of my customers(thanks Jay) and have the card examined by a recognized expert in 19th century photography. I have an appointment on January 7th with Paul Messier of Boston who is a world renowned expert in photography and photographic process.

He will inspect the card to determine whether this is a "laser copy". He will also determine if there is the microscopic presence of gold an silver using xray technology and this will give us the absolute answer to all of our questions. He will also provide documentation in support of his scientific findings. I had hoped to put this issue to rest earlier than January 7th, however Mr. Messier is booked until that date. On Monday December 24th I am going to post photos of the SGC slabbed card for all of you who do not believe that it has been authenticated, and this will allow all of you to inspect the work performed so far.

As far as the 99 cent auction speculation, it is true that my seller did put it on ebay and was offered pretty good sums of money to end it. However he is an intelligent man who buys and sells for a living and decided to find out what he had. He then decided to sell the card to his partner. It was his partner who sent it to Leland's for their auction. When the card was returned by leland's the partner requested his money back as it was deemed a fake. My seller gave his partner the money back and mailed me the card for further inspection. I sent the card out not knowing the entire story at the time. I am still very certain that this card is real and SGC has confirmed that. Unfortunately I do not feel comfortable moving forward without getting a second opinion. I respect and appreciate all of the members of this forum and as an auction house we cannot proceed with even an ounce of doubt. In this business your reputation is all you have and it is paramount that all of the questions and rumors are put to rest prior to the sale.

This unfortunately is going to change the timing of the auction for this card. If this card is in fact genuine as we believe, we will have to postpone the auction until March 6 2013. This will allow the scientific process to be completed and adequate time for marketing.

I thank you all for your patience in this process as we all want to know the truth.

Troy Thibodeau
Saco River Auction

[barrysloate]

You're doing the right thing Troy. If the card is a laser copy you don't want to sell it, and if Messier says it's good you have some strong documentation. It's a win-win.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

You'e doing the right thing Troy. If the card is a laser copy you don't want to sell it, and if Messier says it's good you have some strong documentation. It's a win-win.

+++1

[benjulmag]

Troy,

Kudos for the disclosures you've made and the actions you are taking!

[GaryPassamonte]

Bravo, Troy.

[yanks12025]

I don't understand why he would sell it to his friend and not take one of the other offers which i guess would have been higher?

[Runscott]

I want to see a clear scan of this cdv, while it's residing in an SGC holder.

???

[Jay Wolt]

Troy Solid move!

[Jacklitsch]

Presume it will have to be cracked out of the SGC case for proper examination.

[Leon]

Kudos to Troy for having it authenticated even more. As a follow up, I am told that the SGC folks spoke with the Lelands folks and the issue Lelands had might have been more with the printing on the back of it than the photo itself. Sending it to a photo expert for re-evaluation is certainly a smart move. The piece will do much better in auction when all doubt is cleared.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

Kudos to Troy for having it authenticated even more. As a follow up, I am told that the SGC folks spoke with the Lelands folks and the issue Lelands had might have been more with the printing on the back of it than the photo itself. Sending it to a photo expert for re-evaluation is certainly a smart move. The piece will do much better in auction when all doubt is cleared.

That's a whole different story from 'xerox photo' or 'inkjet printer' - significantly different.

[MW1]

<< As far as the 99 cent auction speculation, it is true that my seller did put it on ebay and was offered pretty good sums of money to end it. However he is an intelligent man who buys and sells for a living and decided to find out what he had. He then decided to sell the card to his partner. It was his partner who sent it to Leland's for their auction. >>

These two folks wouldn't happen to live in Cincinnati, would they?

[Saco River Auction]

They live in Washington county maine

[oldjudge]

Good work Troy!

Brian--that one slipped by.

[e107collector]

I really don't follow 19th century cards, but let's just say this turns out to be real, - which I hope it does.

What would this card be worth, $30K, or is my guess way off?

Any info is appreciated.

Tony

[barrysloate]

I'll guess 50K.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I'll guess 50K.

Really 50K?? I think it's ugly looking, lol Also what would be the reason for it to be worth that much?

[Matthew H]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

Really 50K?? I think it's ugly looking, lol Also what would be the reason for it to be worth that much?

For the same reason other rare 19th century items are worth that much.

[barrysloate]

The Brooklyn Atlantics were among the strongest clubs in the 1860's, and any team photos of them from that era are very rare and in very high demand. It will certainly go for a lot.

[bmarlowe1]

It's one of the earlier known images of a high caliber team. I can think of images of the '59 Excelsiors (plus Knicks), the '60 Excelsiors, c1860 Atlantics, 1864 Mutuals, and the 1865 photo under discussion here.

[GaryPassamonte]

I think Barry is spot on. $50K may be the highest price ever paid for a baseball CdV. Only the 1860/61 Atlantics CdV may have exceeded this amount. I am unsure how much that CdV sold for.

[barrysloate]

Gary- I sold the 1861 Atlantics CdV privately at least ten years ago, before the prices escalated. I think it was somewhere in the 15K range at the time. That's one I let get away.

[GaryPassamonte]

Barry-I remember the CdV well, the price I didn't know. If only we had known. I looked at some old correspondence from you and found a copy of the CdV. This is without a doubt, the best baseball CdV I know of. It was 1997. Time flies.

[Saco River Auction]

Happy Holidays from SRA and here are the scans I promised.Dsc_1886.jpg

Dsc_1885.jpg

Dsc_1884.jpg

Dsc_1883.jpg

Dsc_1882.jpg

Dsc_1881.jpg

Dsc_1880.jpg

Dsc_1879.jpg

Dsc_1878.jpg

Dsc_1877.jpg

Dsc_1874.jpg

[Saco River Auction]

While we all are waiting for the results, feel free to bid on the cool old judge items we have in the January 1st sale including an 1888 Grays Studio Charlie Ferguson, Old Judge N-172's and 1889 Bean Eater photo.

Again Happy Holidays

Troy

[Runscott]

Thanks for posting, Troy. I sent an email regarding the Jan 1 auction and didn't receive any response.

[e107collector]

Troy,

Great looking piece. I hope for your sake, and the sake of the hobby, everything turns out to be authentic when the expert reviews it in a few weeks.

You are doing the right thing.

Happy Holidays,

Tony

[Saco River Auction]

I just went through the email and there is no email from you. Our email is info@sacoriverauction.com or you can call me 207-650-5677 that is my cell phone and i can answer any questions you have.

Troy

[Runscott]

edited after speaking with Troy

Thanks for the discussion!

[benjulmag]

While I recognize I am comparing only scans, the scans posted by the auction house do not differ in any significant way from the initial scan of the image. They exhibit a degradation in resolution (in ways having nothing to do with contrast) compared to the LOC copy that make me struggle to understand how they can be printed from the same negative. I have never before seen such differences in identical albumen photos where each are genuine. While I'm interested to hear what Mr. Messier has to say, unless he can establish that one cannot in the 21st century create an albumen photo that is chemically indistinguishable from one printed in the 19th century, I would regard his results as inconclusive.

[Saco River Auction]

There are going to be distinct differences in this Cdv and the loc one because this one is a vignette process albumen whereas the loc version is a full view non vignette version of the same pose. If you look at the photographers branding label on the rear of our Cdv it says vignette specialty.

[Saco River Auction]

The vignette process has clearly been mistaken for photo degradation. Vignette was used to make the center pieces of the pose, In this case the team, stand out, rather than the back ground. It was a very common practice in the mid 19th century especially by this photographer. Mr. Messier will be the deciding factor on this because as a scientific expert on 19th century photography there is no way to rule his results(good or bad) as inconclusive. His findings either combined with sgc or aside from sgc will be the final verdict on this card.
Troy

[GaryPassamonte]

Corey- The 1875 Hartfords CdV comes with both the actual background visible or obscured. Could this CdV have been produced in a similar manner? Also, some images from the same photo shoot are slightly different such as the those of the 1874 Red Stockings. The placement of the equipment is different in the few copies known suggesting multiple negatives. Could the Atlantics CdV be from a different negative from the same shoot? I realize there appear to be no differences between the LOC copy and the CdV, but isn't it possible they may actually be from different negatives?

[benjulmag]

Troy,

The differences in resolution pertain to the players themselves. Perhaps the vignette process caused this. If so. then I will have learned something. In addition, I will point out that the printing in the verso (where the vignette process is identified) has been mentioned as the aspect of this CdV that caused Lelands to reject it. Accordingly I would hope that as part of Mr Messier's analysis he examine the verso. Finally I must respectfully disagree with your view as to the capabilities of forensic testing. It is a negative process which tells one what something is not, as opposed to what something is. If an item flunks forensic testing, then we know it is a fake. It it passes then we can say it is consistent with authentic items but that doesn't mean it MUST be authentic. It raises then the feasibility of whether a forger could recreate the process in current times.

In saying all this I am not saying the CdV has to be a fake. Rather I am simply noting aspects of it that trouble me in the hope they will be directly addressed by Mr. Messier. I should also reiterate that while we may disagree about certain aspects about this item, I do appreciate your openness about this item and responsiveness to expressed concerns.

[benjulmag]

Gary,

The difference in background in the 1875 Hartford CdV was created by the studio applying white paint to the background in the mammoth plate from which the CdV was made. I say this because I have seen the mammoth plate. Also, there are multiple copies known of each version of that CdV thus giving reassurance as to the legitimacy of the difference.

[barrysloate]

I owned the mammoth plate at one time and you could easily see the gobs of white paint (it looked like white out) that was applied to the background.

[GaryPassamonte]

I have never seen that mammoth plate. Very interesting.
What about the possibility of multiple negatives from the same sitting?

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

I have never seen that mammoth plate. Very interesting.
What about the possibility of multiple negatives from the same sitting?

I suppose anything is possible but unless a single shoot can generate multiple negatives, I would think there would be a least some noticeable difference in the pose, no matter how minor. And if the single shoot of this pose did generate multiple negatives, wouldn't they generate prints of identical resolution?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I suppose anything is possible but unless a single shoot can generate multiple negatives, I would think there would be a least some noticeable difference in the pose, no matter how minor. And if the single shoot of this pose did generate multiple negatives, wouldn't they generate prints of identical resolution?

It depends - it's basically another photograph. Because of this, there would be differences in the composition, even if very very small.

[GaryPassamonte]

It would be ideal to have the LOC image and the CdV in hand to compare, but I don't believe that is going to happen. Given the current situation, it seems that nothing will completely dispel some doubts about the CdV. This is unfortunate because this is a CdV we would all want to be positively genuine due to its historical and hobby significance.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

It would be ideal to have the LOC image and the CdV in hand to compare, but I don't believe that is going to happen. Given the current situation, it seems that nothing will completely dispel some doubts about the CdV. This is unfortunate because this is a CdV we would all want to be positively genuine due to its historical and hobby significance.

Gary, if a 19th century albumen expert (including yourself) took a look at it and gave your opinion, I think all doubts that mattered, would be dispelled. This is about to happen, which should be very exciting.

[oldjudge]

The following is the process to create an albumen photograph. I am no photo expert, but after reading this it appears that there could be variations in quality amongst prints made from the same negative:


The process of making an albumen print

A piece of paper, usually 100% cotton, is coated with an emulsion of egg white (albumen) and salt (sodium chloride or ammonium chloride), then dried. The albumen seals the paper and creates a slightly glossy surface for the sensitizer to rest on.
The paper is then dipped in a solution of silver nitrate and water which renders the surface sensitive to UV light.
The paper is then dried in the absence of UV light.
The dried, prepared paper is placed in a frame in direct contact under a negative. The negative is traditionally a glass negative with collodion emulsion, but this step can be performed with a modern silver halide negative, too. The paper with negative is then exposed to light until the image achieves the desired level of darkness, which is typically a little lighter than the end product. Though direct sunlight was used long ago, a UV exposure unit is preferable because it is more predictable, as the paper is most sensitive to ultraviolet light.
A bath of sodium thiosulfate fixes the print’s exposure, preventing further darkening.
Optional gold or selenium toning improves the photograph’s tone and stabilizes against fading. Depending on the toner, toning may be performed before or after fixing the print.

[drc]

Albumen prints can range in quality (light, dark, etc), cuts, placement on the card. The prints can sometimes have goofy cuts and not be straight on the card.

Albumen prints are on very thin paper, you can see the paper fibers under a microscope, and sometimes have silvering (like a patina) the dark areas of the image. They also usually have a gloss.

All 19th century real photo baseball cards (N172, N173, Gypsy Queens, Peck and Snyder, Newsboy cabinets) are albumen photos. It was the most common paper photo process of the day. I would imagine you find variations of the image qualities of these cards, and how the prints were cut and placed on the mount for the cabinet cards.

[bmarlowe1]

To the extent that I can discern all the head, hand and other body part positions, IMO both images are derived from the same negative. It is extremely unlikely that they all could have so perfectly held their positions.

[GaryPassamonte]

At this point, I would have to agree with you, Mark.

[Saco River Auction]

On January 7 2013 Paul Messier Conservator of Boston inspected the card and his findings are in the detailed report which I am including.

A Quick summary of his findings are as follows.

This is a 19th century Albumen Print, and was not created with a laser, inket, or any other kind of modern photography process.

We have spent the time to be certain and to make all of you certain that this is an authentic 19th century albumen print. We have provided conclusive evidence from SGC and Paul Messier.

It is now time to move forward and sell this card. We have scheduled the sale for February 6 2013@5PM at our auction hall in Biddeford Maine.

I am currently registering phone bidders and absentee bidders, internet bidding will begin later this week.

If you would like to schedule a phone bid or have any questions please call Troy 207-650-5677

[ullmandds]

Alrighty...let the pigeons loose!!!!