ESPN Top 100

[Peter_Spaeth]

If already posted please delete.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...s-all-nos-25-1

100. Barry Larkin
99. Phil Niekro
98. Jim Thome
97. Adrian Beltre
96. Charlie Gehringer
95. Duke Snider
94. Bryce Harper
93. John Smoltz
92. Roy Halladay
91. Ryne Sandberg
90. Ivan Rodriguez
89. Shoeless Joe Jackson
88. Willie Stargell
87. Carlton Fisk
86. Roberto Alomar
85. Jim Palmer
84. Paul Molitor
83. Roy Campanella
82. Eddie Collins
81. Mike Piazza
80. Robin Yount
79. Hank Greenberg
78. Chipper Jones
77. Vladimir Guerrero
76. Cap Anson
75. Rod Carew
74. Juan Marichal
73. Willie McCovey
72. Justin Verlander
71. Al Kaline
70. Harmon Killebrew
69. Ozzie Smith
68. Manny Ramirez
67. Brooks Robinson
66. Cal Ripken Jr.
65. Max Scherzer
64. Eddie Mathews
63. David Ortiz
62. Mel Ott
61. Carl Yastrzemski
60. Whitey Ford
59. Miguel Cabrera
58. Steve Carlton
57. Pete Alexander
56. Dave Winfield
55. Reggie Jackson
54. Lefty Grove
53. Oscar Charleston
52. Clayton Kershaw
51. Ernie Banks
50. Bob Feller
49. Frank Thomas
48. Nap Lajoie
47. Warren Spahn
46. Ichiro Suzuki
45. Wade Boggs
44. Tony Gwynn
43. George Brett
42. Nolan Ryan
41. Satchel Paige
40. Jimmie Foxx
39. Yogi Berra
38. Jackie Robinson
37. Joe Morgan
36. Tris Speaker
35. Josh Gibson
34. Pete Rose
33. Bob Gibson
32. Sandy Koufax
31. Mariano Rivera
30. Albert Pujols
29. Johnny Bench
28. Derek Jeter
27. Roberto Clemente
26. Alex Rodriguez
25. Christy Mathewson
24. Randy Johnson
23. Rickey Henderson
22. Tom Seaver
21. Cy Young
20. Rogers Hornsby
19. Frank Robinson
18. Mike Schmidt
17. Roger Clemens
16. Joe DiMaggio
15. Mike Trout
14. Greg Maddux
13. Ken Griffey Jr.
12. Honus Wagner
11. Pedro Martinez
10. Stan Musial
9. Walter Johnson
8. Barry Bonds
7. Mickey Mantle
6. Lou Gehrig
5. Ted Williams
4. Ty Cobb
3. Hank Aaron
2. Willie Mays
1. Babe Ruth

[JustinD]

Not a horrible list. Off hand the Yankee association really moved Jeter unreasonably far up that list, but I am sure someone will disagree. No list will keep everyone happy, but I have seen far worse. I am happy that the list writer added some history in there versus the usual of having a list of 90% players after 85'.

[iwantitiwinit]

Too high:

Bonds
Seaver
Henderson (way too high)
Clemente

Too low:

Bench

[Wanaselja]

Jeter at #28 is laughable (yes, I am a Met fan).

[Peter_Spaeth]

IMO Pedro, Jeter, Clemente, Rivera, Ortiz too high.

[CobbSpikedMe]

How did Pedro get #11?



.

[Tyruscobb]

Shoeless Joe Jackson is 89th out of 100? This was the biggest headscratcher for me.

[chadeast]

Jeter > Foxx and Speaker? Ummm, no.

[D. Bergin]

Finally! A list everybody can agree on!

[BobbyStrawberry]

Where is Hyun-Jin Ryu?!

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Where is Hyun-Jin Ryu?!

#101 Just missed the cut.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

Shoeless Joe Jackson is 89th out of 100? This was the biggest headscratcher for me.

Yeah, head scratcher for me too... why was he even on the list?

Ha - could you imagine trying to get just a few people to agree on this list?

At least they probably have the #1 player selected correctly (well, at least for a third of the people that read the list...)

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

#101 Just missed the cut.

Lol.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

Shoeless Joe Jackson is 89th out of 100? This was the biggest headscratcher for me.

+1 agree about Joe jackson

Do not understand Jeter being so high up and ahead of some greats

[Golfcollector]

I am biased but find it disappointing that Sam Crawford didn't make this list....

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Golfcollector

I am biased but find it disappointing that Sam Crawford didn't make this list....

Agreed, would like to see Heilmann make the list too.

[oldjudge]

I can’t understand why DiMaggio ranks so low. He had a shorter career than Mantle but his batting stats per season are better and there was no comparison in the field-DiMaggio was much better.

Per 162 game season

Runs-DiMaggio -130, Mantle-113
Doubles-DiMaggio-36, Mantle-23
Triples-DiMaggio-12, Mantle-5
Homers-DiMaggio-34, Mantle-36
RBIs-DiMaggio-143, Mantle-102
BA-DiMaggio-.325, Mantle-.298
OPS-DiMaggio-.977, Mantle-.977

I think Joe D was the greatest center fielder ever although I can see an argument for Mays.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

Where is Hyun-Jin Ryu?!

Fabulous question, he's sooooooo much better than Warren Spahn, right? LOL

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I can’t understand why DiMaggio ranks so low. He had a shorter career than Mantle but his batting stats per season are better and there was no comparison in the field-DiMaggio was much better.

Per 162 game season

Runs-DiMaggio -130, Mantle-113
Doubles-DiMaggio-36, Mantle-23
Triples-DiMaggio-12, Mantle-5
Homers-DiMaggio-34, Mantle-36
RBIs-DiMaggio-143, Mantle-102
BA-DiMaggio-.325, Mantle-.298
OPS-DiMaggio-.977, Mantle-.977

I think Joe D was the greatest center fielder ever although I can see an argument for Mays.

And yet, Mantle is comfortably ahead on WAR type stats. 4th among CF, DiMaggio is 7th. And not just longevity, Mantle is ahead in WAR7, 64 to 52. And his dWAR for whatever reason is MUCH better 9.6 to 3.2.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/l.../jaws_CF.shtml

And FWIW, Bill James rates Mantle 6th all time, DiMaggio 13th.

[Tao_Moko]

Pete Rose #34. Uhhhhh

[BobC]

Here's another one I think is a real head scratcher. They have Ichiro at only #46!!!

I don't know how ESPN made their decisions and selections, but to me this is a real travesty. Especially if they are only going by his MLB record and stats. Because if so, Ichiro is being placed in a similar situation as to what was done to the Negro League players before it was recently decided to count those leagues as equivalent to the rest of MLB. And not unlike the Negro players, Japanese players apparently faced their own discrimination and bias from being allowed to play in the major leagues. Why else would it take all the way till 2001 for Ichiro to become the very first ever Japanese born person to be signed to a MLB contract and actually play as an everyday position player for a major league team? Or are you going to tell me in the long history of the Japanese leagues there wasn't at least one other person before Ichiro that had the talent and ability to be an everyday position player on a major league team?

When Ichiro finally signed with the Mariners in 2001, it was after he had already played nine years in the Nipon Professional Baseball league, Japan's top professional baseball league. And yes, you read that correctly, NINE YEARS more he could have possibly been adding to his major league stats, records, and legacy. As it was, his very first year in MLB he won the AL-ROY and the AL-MVP awards, and led the majors in steals to boot. He also was elected to the All-Star team his first 10 years in the majors, during which time he also won 10 consecutive Gold Glove awards, received MVP votes in 9 of those years, and even grabbed three Silver Slugger awards. He also set the record during this time as the only player in MLB history to have 200 or more hits in a season for 10 consecutive seasons, and even set the MLB record for most hits in a single season during this run. And again, this was ALL AFTER HE SPENT THE FIRST 9 YEARS OF HIS CAREER PLAYING BASEBALL IN JAPAN!!!! Really let that sink in for a couple minutes!

Had he been signed to a MLB contract early on, they probably wouldn't still be talking about Pete Rose as the all-time major league hits king. If you were to add in his Japanese league stats, like was done with the Negro League players, his numbers are even more mind boggling. The only possible knock against him was he didn't swing for the fences, but came up near the end of the steroid/PED era when the fans were so enamored of the big guys belting all the homers. Seeing Ichiro get hits like no one ever had before just didn't seem to create the same excitement and fervor as the big boppers. Also, playing the bulk of his MLB career in Seattle, especially during his best years, didn't help boost his fame and popularity with the fan base as much as it would have had he originally signed with a team like the Yankees, and spent his most productive years with them.

Still, only #46, really?!?!?!

[perezfan]

Jeter, Pedro and Bryce Harper are ranked way too high. And Bench, Speaker, Ott and Foxx are too low.

Maybe it's my eyes.... but I do not see George Sisler or Carl Hubbell anywhere on the list (I scanned it twice). If that's the case, those are two terrible omissions that compromise the credibility of the list.

[ClementeFanOh]

Opinion time, I'm sure this will end well

1) Aroid is wrong and Bryce Harper is laughable

2) Roberto belongs

3) Actually a decent list for the most part

Fire the cannons! Trent King

[paul]

Grove is way underrated in this list.

[molenick]

This list was discussed a bit in the "Who Are Your Inner Circle Hall of Famers?" thread but the full list wasn't posted. My initial surprise was seeing how high Pedro Martinez was ranked. He's kind of like the new Koufax in that he gets a lot of credit for his peak performance.

The thing Martinez has going for him is that more of the voters saw him pitch (to have seen Koufax we're talking about people at least in their early 60s) and he benefits from modern stats, which give him a lot of credit for pitching in a hitter's era and (at least when he was with the Red Sox) in a hitter's park. Whereas now people (some people) downplay Koufax because he pitched in a pitcher's era and park.

Of course it is impossible to have a list that everyone agrees on, but I would rank the next six pitchers (Maddux, Clemens, Young, Seaver, Randy Johnson, Mathewson) ahead of him as well Grove (54th!) and Alexander (57th!), which still makes him the tenth best pitcher (also being behind Walter Johnson who is on the list at 9) which is nothing to sneeze at. I am not sure how to weigh peak vs. career but all these guys had both great peaks and long careers.

There's an endless amount to discuss here but I will just add these observations:

Not sure how Lajoie is ranked 48th and Eddie Collins 82nd. Putting Lajoie where he is shows awareness of earlier players so I am unclear why Collins was ranked that low.

I am not a Bryce Harper hater but I disagree with having him on the list at all while leaving off Crawford, Waner, and Heilmann (as well as many other players I would choose over Harper, but I was focusing on right fielders).

All that being said, there isn't a list of 100 players any one of us could come up with that anyone else would agree with 100%. And I think this pays tribute to the history of the game while recognizing that some current or recent players are pretty good as well.

To me the list skews a little too modern but I would imagine my list (and possibly the list of others on this site) would skew a little older.

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And yet, Mantle is comfortably ahead on WAR type stats. 4th among CF, DiMaggio is 7th. And not just longevity, Mantle is ahead in WAR7, 64 to 52. And his dWAR for whatever reason is MUCH better 9.6 to 3.2.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/l.../jaws_CF.shtml

And FWIW, Bill James rates Mantle 6th all time, DiMaggio 13th.

That is surely an indictment of WAR. Every person I have known who saw both play said DiMaggio was the better player. Mantle walked more but DiMaggio beat him by almost 60 total bases per 162 game season.

[Ricky]

No George Sisler.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

That is surely an indictment of WAR. Every person I have known who saw both play said DiMaggio was the better player. Mantle walked more but DiMaggio beat him by almost 60 total bases per 162 game season.

The plural of anecdote is not data, my friend. Not that he's infallible, but I have a lot of respect for Bill James. Obviously both are very very upper echelon all time greats we can agree on that.

[Fred]

Having a difficult time with a few of the selections:

Trout at # 15 - wow - that's a bit presumptuous - great player (no doubt). He's still playing. What happens if he plays 8 more years but with mere mortal numbers? Yes, top 100, but #15?

Harper at #94 - he's a .279 lifetime hitter. Yes, there's potential there, but really top 100?

Yes, more, but those two stand out to me.

[John1941]

I'm far from PC, and don't think the Negro Leagues were the equal of the major leagues, but I think the low rating for Negro League greats is ridiculous. Oscar Charleston 53rd? He should, at the very least, be in top 20, and there's a good argument for him being in the top 5. Josh Gibson behind Derek Jeter? Whaaaa???

And I agree -- Bryce Harper is nowhere near the top 100. Needs three to five more great seasons.

[RCMcKenzie]

WAR is not a perfect stat, but it works pretty well sometimes, and other times not at all.
47th Bob Gibson
48 George Brett
49 Tim Keefe
50 Robin Roberts
60 Nolan Ryan
65 Curt Shilling
66 Dimaggio

I don't think anyone thinks Schilling was a better baseball player than Dimaggio

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by John1941

I'm far from PC, and don't think the Negro Leagues were the equal of the major leagues, but I think the low rating for Negro League greats is ridiculous. Oscar Charleston 53rd? He should, at the very least, be in top 20, and there's a good argument for him being in the top 5. Josh Gibson behind Derek Jeter? Whaaaa???

And I agree -- Bryce Harper is nowhere near the top 100. Needs three to five more great seasons.

Harper and Trout probably reflect who ESPN had on the panel. Still puzzling out Pedro, obviously a very great pitcher at his peak, but the career to me just doesn't add up to him ranking over Clemens, Young, Alexander, etc.

[molenick]

Yeah, I think Harper really stands out. I recall a book years ago of the 100 best players that had George Foster in it, I guess right after he had his monster years and before it was clear he was just going to be a very good player but not a great player. In retrospect, that was not a wise choice.

[isiahfan]

Ozzie Smith?...NO WAY....

ARod...love him or hate him...SS and OF #s...way too low IMO

Gets dicey towards the middle as far a placement...but good list overall

[Dead-Ball-Hitter]

Well, I actually agree with the top 5….

[bnorth]

After going over the list I can't believe George Brett is ahead of Wade Boggs and Eddie Mathews. On best ever 3rd baseman lists he is always below them and correctly so.

[Lobo Aullando]

I don't know on Henderson. I'm wondering if he's a few notches too low. He was terrifying because you knew if he got on -- and he did even more with that small strike zone -- it was like it was downhill the rest of the way to home plate. (Great if he's on your team, though.)

3,055 hits, 2,190 walks, and then 1,406 steals.

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

Too high:

Bonds
Seaver
Henderson (way too high)
Clemente

Too low:

Bench

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

After going over the list I can't believe George Brett is ahead of Wade Boggs and Eddie Mathews. On best ever 3rd baseman lists he is always below them and correctly so.

Boggs had not much power once batting practice ended and that hurt his legacy, along with his appearance of self-obsession. Mathews just never got his due, I don't know why.

[RCMcKenzie]

In another thread, someone was naming their greatest pitchers and they went with the soccer-type, first name only, reference of "Pedro", and the first name I thought of was "Pedro Borbon". After about 30 seconds, I realized he was talking about Martinez. Martinez was good, and so were Roy Oswalt and Orel Hershiser.

[Tabe]

Mariano on the list at all is terrible let alone the high ranking he got. Oooooooh, he was great for 65 innings a year. Whoopee.

I definitely don't agree with Maddux ahead of Clemens. Clemens has a case for greatest pitcher ever. Maddux does not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Mariano on the list at all is terrible let alone the high ranking he got. Oooooooh, he was great for 65 innings a year. Whoopee.

But but but but but those were all NINTH innings when it mattered more!!! SARCASM I'm of the all runs count the same school.

[nat]

"I don't think anyone thinks Schilling was a better baseball player than Dimaggio"

Nobody thinks he was, and WAR doesn't say that he was. WAR is a measure of value, not ability. If you want to measure ability you'll need something like WAR/PA or something like that. (Tricky here, since Schilling was a pitcher and DiMaggio was a position player.)

Anyway, by WAR they're tied in total career value. (The difference is less than one WAR, which is totally meaningless over the course of a player's career.) And the only reason that DiMaggio isn't ahead of Schilling is that his career was so short. He only played 13 years - or really only 12.5 since he missed half of 1949. If you want to give him any credit for the years he missed during the war, he'd pull way ahead.

The Trout rating is obviously based on some expectations of what he'll do in the future. I think it's pretty likely that he ends up being a top-20 player, although obviously he isn't there yet.

As for the rest of the list: it's so bad I'm just going to ignore it. Half of it looks like click-bait, and the other half looks like whoever put it together didn't bother to check the players' records (for example, check out how much daylight they put between Matty and Pete).

[RCMcKenzie]

I stand corrected, nat. I'm not familiar with war/pa, I'll have to check it out. I don't care for this espn list either, but it makes for fun conversation. I could argue Trout has only been the 2nd best player on a losing team his whole career. Pujols, Ohtani.

[Kidnapped18]

42 Nolan Ryan should be higher up towards the top for me

These three should be much lower towards bottom
11 Pedro Martinez
15 Mike Trout
28 Derek Jeter

No way am I putting these three ahead of some of the greats on this list

94 Bryce Harper doesn't make the cut for me

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

I stand corrected, nat. I'm not familiar with war/pa, I'll have to check it out. I don't care for this espn list either, but it makes for fun conversation. I could argue Trout has only been the 2nd best player on a losing team his whole career. Pujols, Ohtani.

There is no way on earth Pujols on the Angels was remotely close to Trout. No one seriously disputes Trout has been the best player in baseball since he came up in 2011.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie

WAR is not a perfect stat, but it works pretty well sometimes, and other times not at all.
47th Bob Gibson
48 George Brett
49 Tim Keefe
50 Robin Roberts
60 Nolan Ryan
65 Curt Shilling
66 Dimaggio

I don't think anyone thinks Schilling was a better baseball player than Dimaggio

It seems reasonable to me. Total WAR is a counting stat that rewards longevity - Dimaggio's career is very short, only 13 seasons and not all of them complete seasons. For a guy who played like 1,736 games in the OF, 79.2 WAR is incredible. If you factor in this longevity factor, Dimaggio's WAR relative to time played moves him way, way up the list.

[G1911]

Clemente 27th
Kaline 71st

WAR gives Clemente 94.8, Kaline 92.8. Their merits can be debated, but same position at the exact same time and very close statistically overall, with each a bit better in certain areas.

There are a number of players on this list rated on their popularity.

[insidethewrapper]

Where is Harry Heilmann ? He batted .390+ ( 4 times ) !! Only others to do that were Cobb and Hornsby. My Uncle saw Heilmann play and he use to say "he never seen anyone hit the ball harder then Harry ".

[RCMcKenzie]

Peter I said I could make a case, not that I would win. What do y'all think about Robin Roberts as the 50th "most valuable" of all-time by WAR? I did not see him play, but heard he had a good fastball early in his career. I picked up a nice 1956 Topps that I should be getting soon.

Greg, to me as a baseball card collector, I never saw Clemente or Kaline, but I consider them both all-time greats. I don't consider Bryce Harper an all-time great.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Kidnapped18

42 Nolan Ryan should be higher up towards the top for me

These three should be much lower towards bottom
11 Pedro Martinez

I'm curious about these two opinions. Based on what are you saying these guys should be moved?

For all his strikeouts and no-hitters, Ryan still finished his career with a 112 ERA+. He had an ERA+ under 100 nine different times in his career. Pedro, on the other hand, had an ERA+ of 154 and had an ERA+ under 100 just two times in his career. Besides those two, his next lowest for a season was 117. That's right - his third-worst ERA+ season was 5 points higher than Ryan's career total. Pedro won 3 Cy Youngs and was runner-up twice - Ryan was a runner-up once with no wins. Pedro once had an ERA - in a hitters' park in a steroid era - that was 3.17 runs below the league average.

So, again, what's the case for Ryan needing to be higher up to the top and, thus, many, many spots ahead of Pedro who should be "towards the bottom"?