Jeter SP Foil auction

[WillBBC]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I like Jeter. Think he played the game the right way. But the love fest that the modern fan has with the guy makes me scratch my head. And $100,000 for a non autographed rookie is the height of insanity. I don't care what the grade is.

He got 3,000 hits, so he should be in the Hall. But outside of hitting for average (.310 is good, I will give him that), tell me what Derek Jeter did that was exceptional?

I will admit to being a Jeter apologist but I think something that gets discounted quite often is just how valuable it is to have a guy put up rock solid production year in and year out for 20 years! In 20 years he had one real extended period of injury time. Once in 20 years! The other 18.5 years he was a top 5 producer at the position, 2-3 most years, hopefully without steroids! That goes a long, long way!

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by WillBBC

I will admit to being a Jeter apologist but I think something that gets discounted quite often is just how valuable it is to have a guy put up rock solid production year in and year out for 20 years! In 20 years he had one real extended period of injury time. Once in 20 years! The other 18.5 years he was a top 5 producer at the position, 2-3 most years, hopefully without steroids! That goes a long, long way!

But, he didn't put up rock solid production year in, year out.

Forgetting, for a moment, his defense, which was atrocious. Look at his offensive production, keeping in mind that 100 is league average for OPS +.

Excluding 1995 and 2013, as he played a combined 32 games, the years you could argue Jeter had "rock solid production" at shortstop:

1999 153 OPS +. Great season, MVP caliber, given his position.
2000 132 OPS +. Very good season, right?

In his second best offensive season, Derek Jeter was only the third best hitting shortstop in the American League. Alex Rodriguez put up a 163 OPS +, and Nomar Garciaparra put up a 156 OPS +.

Continuing.

2000 (128 OPS +), 1998 (127 OPS +), 2003, '05 and '09 (125 OPS +), 2001 (124 OPS +), 2007 (121 OPS +).

All solid, if unspectacular seasons. If you're a shortstop producing twenty percent above league average or higher, you're still valuable with the bat. Jeter had to keep this kind of offensive performance to continue being valuable to the team, because his defense is below average.

This next batch of seasons is where things get dicey, as his offensive production doesn't adequately offset his defensive deficiencies.

In 2004 and '12, he had a 114 OPS +. He was 30 years old in 2004. There were 77 batters in the American League with at least 500 PAs. Derek Jeter was 32nd in the AL in OPS +, and a very distant third best offensive shortstop, behind Carlos Guillen (143 OPS +) and Miguel Tejada (131 OPS +).

In 2002, his OPS + was 111. He was 28 years old. Of the 71 batters with 500 or more plate appearances in the American League, Derek Jeter was 41st overall. His OPS + was 7 points above Omar Vizquel's 104, who was not known as a hitting shortstop. Overall, he was the fourth best offensive shortstop in the AL, behind Alex Rodriguez (158), Miguel Tejada (128), and Nomar Garciaparra (127). By WAR, Derek Jeter was the fifth best shortstop in the American League (3.7), behind Alex Rodriguez (8.8), Nomar Garciapara (6.8), Miguel Tejada (5.6), and David Eckstein (5.3).

In 1997, his OPS + was 103. This is at least understandable, given his age, and Major League service time.

In 2008, his OPS + was 102. This is his age 34 season. He was a league average hitter. Fortunately for Jeter, the shortstops in the American League were terrible that year. Yet, he was still only the third best offensive shortstop, behind Mike Aviles (121 OPS +) and Jhonny Peralta (113 OPS +). And by league OPS +, of the 103 batters with over 400 plate appearances, Derek Jeter was 55th.

In 1996, his OPS + was 101. He won the Rookie of the Year
In 2011, his OPS + was 100.
In 2010, his OPS + was 90.
In 2014, his OPS + was 76.

For a full third of his career (1997, 2008, 1996, 2011, 2010, 2014), he was either barely above league average, or below league average, as a hitter. These seasons are somewhat forgivable given his youth, or, towards the end of his career, his age.

But it's the other seasons just above those listed that are problematic. A 111 or 114 OPS + really isn't that good, either at age 28 or 30. Not for a Hall of Fame shortstop who got to Cooperstown solely on his hitting. I can forgive his 114 OPS + in 2012 because he was 38. But in the big picture, that's nine of eighteen full seasons where his OPS + was 114 or lower.

Was Derek Jeter ever the best shortstop in the American League? I'm not even including the NL, here. Just the AL.

[BLongley]

When it's all said and done you can make arguments about many HOFs. How many are still truly great near the end of their career... they all have bottoms and peaks... Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, and others included... Willie Mays hit 1 HR in the playoffs...

Jeter got the nicknames Mr November and Captain Clutch, and yes went to the postseason consistently and that's why he has many postseason records. Do you think maybe he had something to do with them going to the postseason??? He played in one game in his entire career that was meaningless...the Yankees were in some sort of playoff contention in every other regular or postseason game that he played. He has won World Series MVP... How many for Banks, oh how many playoffs did Banks go to.... none.... his 500 HRs and MVPs never got his team to the playoffs? How many World Series for Yount....none.... Yount never lead the league in any of the triple crown categories....which to you was a big knock on Jeter... One could argue Banks is only in the Hall because he hit 500 HRs... he was a terrible defensive SS.... but he won 2 MVPs, was Mr Cub and was beloved by many...but he barely hit .250 in any of his last 10 seasons, but to you he is amazing? I think he is amazing too, but more for than what just his stats say... most HOF players are more amazing than their stats say...

What means more to you? Having your favorite player win an MVP? Or you favorite team winning the World Series? Jeter played in a steroid induced era (hence his annual AL SS offensive numbers being 3rd behind ARod and Tejada, both known steroid users) and didn't cheat. Derek Jeter played consistently in the playoffs and in the biggest games, Jeters play to get Giambi at home, his dive into the stands vs the Red Sox, his HR in the 96 ALCS are the plays people remember...they don't remember that he hit only .250 in a postseason series, etc....

I'm a Yankees fan and Jeter was my favorite player... I have been to dozens of regular season games and I have been to World Series games watching him...the entire nation watched him numerous times on TV during the playoffs. Sure he had good and bad postseasons, back to Willie Mays... who was terrible in his few post season appearances...does that make Willie Mays less of a player? Based on your analysis it does....

You don't have to like him, or the Yankees.

Apparently there are many more people with lots of money that believe Jeter is one of the greats and value his rookie cards... especially his 93SP.... the money talks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A Rod was by far the superior baseball player, but he was a steroid user, an egomaniac and a whiner who also was prone to prodigious playoff slumps. The contrast IMO is a huge part of why Jeter was so popular despite lesser abilities and accomplishments. Imagine if Ripken, who IMO was much better than Jeter, had played in NY.

[Rookiemonster]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A Rod was by far the superior baseball player, but he was a steroid user, an egomaniac and a whiner who also was prone to prodigious playoff slumps. The contrast IMO is a huge part of why Jeter was so popular despite lesser abilities and accomplishments. Imagine if Ripken, who IMO was much better than Jeter, had played in NY.

Well said , I’m a Yankees fan I don’t get either. Idk who you give your team is but I watched a lot of jeter. I liked him but he wasn’t always my favorite or the best player on the field. If I had to make a argument it would be that he played in the steroid era clean. He played against pitcher and defensively that were roided out like never before. I guess if you take that into account his star didn’t shine as bright. When people are mashing homers and throwing gas all day to look at jeter and say he a all time great is hard to do.

[Hxcmilkshake]

Nice argument until you said his defense was "atrocious".

See the flip play. His jump throws. Him diving into the seats.

Was he great defensively? No of course not.

But "atrocious" defenders dont play the position for 20 years....

Originally Posted by the 'stache

But, he didn't put up rock solid production year in, year out.

Forgetting, for a moment, his defense, which was atrocious. Look at his offensive production, keeping in mind that 100 is league average for OPS +.

Excluding 1995 and 2013, as he played a combined 32 games, the years you could argue Jeter had "rock solid production" at shortstop:

1999 153 OPS +. Great season, MVP caliber, given his position.
2000 132 OPS +. Very good season, right?

In his second best offensive season, Derek Jeter was only the third best hitting shortstop in the American League. Alex Rodriguez put up a 163 OPS +, and Nomar Garciaparra put up a 156 OPS +.

Continuing.

2000 (128 OPS +), 1998 (127 OPS +), 2003, '05 and '09 (125 OPS +), 2001 (124 OPS +), 2007 (121 OPS +).

All solid, if unspectacular seasons. If you're a shortstop producing twenty percent above league average or higher, you're still valuable with the bat. Jeter had to keep this kind of offensive performance to continue being valuable to the team, because his defense is below average.

This next batch of seasons is where things get dicey, as his offensive production doesn't adequately offset his defensive deficiencies.

In 2004 and '12, he had a 114 OPS +. He was 30 years old in 2004. There were 77 batters in the American League with at least 500 PAs. Derek Jeter was 32nd in the AL in OPS +, and a very distant third best offensive shortstop, behind Carlos Guillen (143 OPS +) and Miguel Tejada (131 OPS +).

In 2002, his OPS + was 111. He was 28 years old. Of the 71 batters with 500 or more plate appearances in the American League, Derek Jeter was 41st overall. His OPS + was 7 points above Omar Vizquel's 104, who was not known as a hitting shortstop. Overall, he was the fourth best offensive shortstop in the AL, behind Alex Rodriguez (158), Miguel Tejada (128), and Nomar Garciaparra (127). By WAR, Derek Jeter was the fifth best shortstop in the American League (3.7), behind Alex Rodriguez (8.8), Nomar Garciapara (6.8), Miguel Tejada (5.6), and David Eckstein (5.3).

In 1997, his OPS + was 103. This is at least understandable, given his age, and Major League service time.

In 2008, his OPS + was 102. This is his age 34 season. He was a league average hitter. Fortunately for Jeter, the shortstops in the American League were terrible that year. Yet, he was still only the third best offensive shortstop, behind Mike Aviles (121 OPS +) and Jhonny Peralta (113 OPS +). And by league OPS +, of the 103 batters with over 400 plate appearances, Derek Jeter was 55th.

In 1996, his OPS + was 101. He won the Rookie of the Year
In 2011, his OPS + was 100.
In 2010, his OPS + was 90.
In 2014, his OPS + was 76.

For a full third of his career (1997, 2008, 1996, 2011, 2010, 2014), he was either barely above league average, or below league average, as a hitter. These seasons are somewhat forgivable given his youth, or, towards the end of his career, his age.

But it's the other seasons just above those listed that are problematic. A 111 or 114 OPS + really isn't that good, either at age 28 or 30. Not for a Hall of Fame shortstop who got to Cooperstown solely on his hitting. I can forgive his 114 OPS + in 2012 because he was 38. But in the big picture, that's nine of eighteen full seasons where his OPS + was 114 or lower.

Was Derek Jeter ever the best shortstop in the American League? I'm not even including the NL, here. Just the AL.

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Hxcmilkshake

Nice argument until you said his defense was "atrocious".

See the flip play. His jump throws. Him diving into the seats.

Was he great defensively? No of course not.

But "atrocious" defenders dont play the position for 20 years....

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

This is pretty great - reads like a perfect Michael Shur argument right off the Poscast...

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-...eters-defense/

[pokerplyr80]

I'm not sure now many collectors care about stats like war and ops+, but I can tell you that I sure dont.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I'm not sure now many collectors care about stats like war and ops+, but I can tell you that I sure dont.

Those are old metrics now, try the new ones like BABIP, FIP, etc.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-...eters-defense/

I'll see your link and raise you one:


http://www.highheatstats.com/2014/03/owar-and-dwar/

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

For a full third of his career (1997, 2008, 1996, 2011, 2010, 2014), he was either barely above league average, or below league average, as a hitter. These seasons are somewhat forgivable given his youth, or, towards the end of his career, his age.

I'm not a Jeter guy at all, but I'll respectfully disagree with you. A league average hitter at shortstop is very valuable, but Jeter provided above average production for approximately 2/3s of his career, which has tremendous value.

Jeter finished a career OPS of .817, which ranks 7th all tie for SS based on MLB's sortable stats table. And that is more impressive considering that table includes Hanley Ramirez and Nomar Garciaparra above him on the list - two guys who played significantly less at short than Jeter did.