T216s, how do they stack up with their E card counterparts?

[edjs]

I love the People's Tobacco cards. I was wondering which of the E cards that share the same images usually go higher, lower, or about the same? Are there specific players that do better in one set over another? And always a good opportunity to show your cards!

[buymycards]

I also love the People's cards. I would think that all of these cards would sell for more than their caramel or baking counterparts, with Virginia Extra being the most difficult, Mino would be next, with Kotton being the most common.

There are a few things that I am unsure of in regard to the Kotton's. There are 3 different Kotton back's. Does each player have one of the backs that is the only back available for that particular player or is each player available with each of the 3 backs. Has anyone ever seen a player who has more than one of the available back styles?

Also, some of the Kotton's are available with a thin paper stock rather than a cardboard stock. Is the thin paper version limited to one style of back or do all 3 backs have a paper version? Do all of the players have a paper version?

What about Mino and Virginia Extra? Do they also have a paper version?

Thanks, Rick

[ullmandds]

I'm not sure for all players but I do know that the Dots Miller big glove is available in t216 with 5 possible backs...all 3 kottons, mino and blank. I currently have 4 of the 5.

And how could I forget the VE back as well...that's 6!!!!

[edjs]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I'm not sure for all players but I do know that the Dots Miller big glove is available in t216 with 5 possible backs...all 3 kottons, mino and blank. I currently have 4 of the 5.

And how could I forget the VE back as well...that's 6!!!!

Pete, your run is a great example. And I wasn't thinking about the VE or MINO either, but I should. With Dots, which of the types were highest to get, and which were bargains, comparatively? And do you guys see the prices holding the same player to player? Say someone did a run with Speaker, would you expect the same price ratios if someone did a run with Fromme? Are there players that would be harder in the E sets than in T216, if so, which ones? Thanks.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by edjs

Pete, your run is a great example. And I wasn't thinking about the VE or MINO either, but I should. With Dots, which of the types were highest to get, and which were bargains, comparatively? And do you guys see the prices holding the same player to player? Say someone did a run with Speaker, would you expect the same price ratios if someone did a run with Fromme? Are there players that would be harder in the E sets than in T216, if so, which ones? Thanks.

The easiest to obtain for me was the mino...which tells you something about t216!!!!! Then the blank backs came to me...which there are 2 in existence I believe and I have both. Then one by one I acquired 2 of the kottons. This took me maybe 5-7 years btw.

I don't know if its others running me up because they know I want some of these cards...on the other hand I've had friends step aside for the sake of my run too. Point being miller is not priced at what a common would be. I've paid hofer money for a few...but never low common prices.

My advice if you are going for a run is not to tell many people!!!!!!! Try to obtain the majority before the secret is out!!!!

Were any bargains?????? The blank backs were the biggest bargains of the t216 millers I have. Right time right place.

[buymycards]

Hey guys, thanks for the answers!

Rick

[brass_rat]

Originally Posted by buymycards

There are a few things that I am unsure of in regard to the Kotton's. There are 3 different Kotton back's. Does each player have one of the backs that is the only back available for that particular player or is each player available with each of the 3 backs. Has anyone ever seen a player who has more than one of the available back styles?

Also, some of the Kotton's are available with a thin paper stock rather than a cardboard stock. Is the thin paper version limited to one style of back or do all 3 backs have a paper version? Do all of the players have a paper version?

What about Mino and Virginia Extra? Do they also have a paper version?

Thanks, Rick

Hey Rick,

So the "paper version" is limited to Virginia Extra and the Kotton "Never Go Out" big scroll -- and all of the VE and KNGO are thin paper. The Kotton "Not in a Trust" (KNIT), Kotton 123 (K123), and Mino are all on regular stock.

Not all players are available with all backs, and this is very much true for the team variations.

Cheers,
Steve

[Leon]

I love the T216s and had a fair amount in my first collection. It took several years to get my first VE so I had to have one for my current collection too. I concur with what Steve said, right above, except I am hopeful all players can eventually be found with all backs. I haven't seen anything (yet) that makes me think we can't eventually find them. I haven't seen any of the back styles have a different type stock.
Overall, I don't think their value is as high as it should be relative to their extreme scarcity but then again I am biased..

[brass_rat]

Originally Posted by Leon

I concur with what Steve said, right above, except I am hopeful all players can eventually be found with all backs. I haven't seen anything (yet) that makes me think we can't eventually find them.

I don't have any formal proof yet, but I'm fairly confident that you can't find all players with all backs. I believe that the Kotton "Never Go Out" big scroll (KNGO) and the Virginia Extra were printed first on the thin paper. At the end of those runs, they started printing the KNIT, K123, and Mino backs.

If you look at the team changes as well as the players with only one team, you'll see what I mean.

For example, Fred Jacklitsch -- he played with Philly through the 1910 season, then in the minors for 1911 through 1913, and then went to the Baltimore Feds for the 1914-1915 seasons. He has with Phila. Nat. and Baltimore Feds cards in the set, but you'll only find the KNGO and VE backs with Phila. Nat. You won't find those two backs with Baltimore, but you will find K123 and Mino backs with Baltimore

Another example is Ray Demmitt. He only has Chicago Am. cards, and he played for them in 1914-1915. I'd love to see someone show a KNGO or VE of Demmitt, but I don't think they exist. The K123 and Mino definitely exist.

Eddie Plank is only pictured with St. Louis Feds, and he played with them in 1915. You won't find a KNGO or VE of him, but the K123 and Mino exist.

On the flip side, Lajoie Cleveland Amer. (fielding) I believe is only ever found with a KNGO back (although I think I VE could exist). Lajoie was with Cleveland through the 1914 season before going to the Philadelphia Athletics for 1915-1916. The Lajoie Portrait is only found with Phila. Americans team caption, and isn't found with the KNGO back, but definitely has the K123 and Mino backs. (I think the KNIT back could exist, but I haven't confirmed it...only my list of things to do.)

Chief Bender (striped cap, Baltimore Feds) -- he played with them in 1915, and that can be found with the KNIT, K123, and Mino backs. The striped cap with Phila. Am. is found with the KNGO and VE backs. (I'd be interested to see Phila. Am / striped cap with any of the KNIT, K123, or Mino backs -- I haven't seen them, but since he was with them through 1914, perhaps they exist.)

(If anyone has any of the backs that I claim don't exist, please do show! I'd love to be wrong here. )

Cheers,
Steve

[Leon]

Originally Posted by brass_rat

I don't have any formal proof yet, but I'm fairly confident that you can't find all players with all backs. I believe that the Kotton "Never Go Out" big scroll (KNGO) and the Virginia Extra were printed first on the thin paper. At the end of those runs, they started printing the KNIT, K123, and Mino backs.

If you look at the team changes as well as the players with only one team, you'll see what I mean.

For example, Fred Jacklitsch -- he played with Philly through the 1910 season, then in the minors for 1911 through 1913, and then went to the Baltimore Feds for the 1914-1915 seasons. He has with Phila. Nat. and Baltimore Feds cards in the set, but you'll only find the KNGO and VE backs with Phila. Nat. You won't find those two backs with Baltimore, but you will find K123 and Mino backs with Baltimore

Another example is Ray Demmitt. He only has Chicago Am. cards, and he played for them in 1914-1915. I'd love to see someone show a KNGO or VE of Demmitt, but I don't think they exist. The K123 and Mino definitely exist.

Eddie Plank is only pictured with St. Louis Feds, and he played with them in 1915. You won't find a KNGO or VE of him, but the K123 and Mino exist.

On the flip side, Lajoie Cleveland Amer. (fielding) I believe is only ever found with a KNGO back (although I think I VE could exist). Lajoie was with Cleveland through the 1914 season before going to the Philadelphia Athletics for 1915-1916. The Lajoie Portrait is only found with Phila. Americans team caption, and isn't found with the KNGO back, but definitely has the K123 and Mino backs. (I think the KNIT back could exist, but I haven't confirmed it...only my list of things to do.)

Chief Bender (striped cap, Baltimore Feds) -- he played with them in 1915, and that can be found with the KNIT, K123, and Mino backs. The striped cap with Phila. Am. is found with the KNGO and VE backs. (I'd be interested to see Phila. Am / striped cap with any of the KNIT, K123, or Mino backs -- I haven't seen them, but since he was with them through 1914, perhaps they exist.)

(If anyone has any of the backs that I claim don't exist, please do show! I'd love to be wrong here. )

Cheers,
Steve

Thanks Steve. Ok, I guess some won't be found.

[x2drich2000]

Originally Posted by brass_rat

I don't have any formal proof yet, but I'm fairly confident that you can't find all players with all backs. I believe that the Kotton "Never Go Out" big scroll (KNGO) and the Virginia Extra were printed first on the thin paper. At the end of those runs, they started printing the KNIT, K123, and Mino backs.

If you look at the team changes as well as the players with only one team, you'll see what I mean.

For example, Fred Jacklitsch -- he played with Philly through the 1910 season, then in the minors for 1911 through 1913, and then went to the Baltimore Feds for the 1914-1915 seasons. He has with Phila. Nat. and Baltimore Feds cards in the set, but you'll only find the KNGO and VE backs with Phila. Nat. You won't find those two backs with Baltimore, but you will find K123 and Mino backs with Baltimore

Another example is Ray Demmitt. He only has Chicago Am. cards, and he played for them in 1914-1915. I'd love to see someone show a KNGO or VE of Demmitt, but I don't think they exist. The K123 and Mino definitely exist.

Eddie Plank is only pictured with St. Louis Feds, and he played with them in 1915. You won't find a KNGO or VE of him, but the K123 and Mino exist.

On the flip side, Lajoie Cleveland Amer. (fielding) I believe is only ever found with a KNGO back (although I think I VE could exist). Lajoie was with Cleveland through the 1914 season before going to the Philadelphia Athletics for 1915-1916. The Lajoie Portrait is only found with Phila. Americans team caption, and isn't found with the KNGO back, but definitely has the K123 and Mino backs. (I think the KNIT back could exist, but I haven't confirmed it...only my list of things to do.)

Chief Bender (striped cap, Baltimore Feds) -- he played with them in 1915, and that can be found with the KNIT, K123, and Mino backs. The striped cap with Phila. Am. is found with the KNGO and VE backs. (I'd be interested to see Phila. Am / striped cap with any of the KNIT, K123, or Mino backs -- I haven't seen them, but since he was with them through 1914, perhaps they exist.)

(If anyone has any of the backs that I claim don't exist, please do show! I'd love to be wrong here. )

Cheers,
Steve

Steve, out of curiosity, have you ever seen a Young with anything other than KNGO back? From my very limited observations, I have seen this back multiple times, but never any others. This would also support your KNGO first theory since Young last played in 1911.

DJ

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by edjs

I love the People's Tobacco cards. I was wondering which of the E cards that share the same images usually go higher, lower, or about the same? Are there specific players that do better in one set over another? And always a good opportunity to show your cards!

Ed, the only person that I believe could provide you with a very comprehensive, meaningful answer to your questions would be a very advanced collector of all the relevant sets, and I would be surprised if such a person exists on this planet (to use a Goodwin embellishment). I think the best you can do is use the pop reports and VCP coupled with info that advanced collectors of any of these individual sets are willing to share with you.

Steve, great stuff! You have most certainly done your T216 homework!

DJ, while I agree that E92 Red Croft's are rarer than any of the other sets mentioned in this thread, I suspect there are D303s, E105s, T216 Kottons, etc. that would sell for more than a comparable condition Red Croft's of the same player. I say this because Red Croft's are so scarce that I doubt any set collector is working on this set - ditto for the T216 VEs. But, there are dedicated collectors working on the D303, E105, T216 Kotton, etc. sets who will pay strong for tough cards they need for their sets.

As some/many are aware, I'm working on a back run of the Hugh Jennings pose that is in these sets. Below is a pic of the cards I currently have, except for a T216 Kotton Tobacco "K123" that I won in the recent Memory Lane auction that I will be picking up from them at the upcoming Chantilly Show. I paid significantly more for my T216 VE than any of my other Jennings cards, however, based on what a poor condition E105 Jennings sold for at auction earlier this year, I am sure that an E105 Jennings in the same condition as my T216 VE would sell for significantly more, even though the pop reports show fewer T216 VEs (2 vs. 3), because of the demand from E105 set collectors. Can anyone confirm the existence of any of the following Jennings cards: (1) E92 Croft's Candy - Red, (2) D303 Mother's Bread, (3) Blank back, or (4) T216 Kotton Tobacco thin paper ("KNGO")?

[x2drich2000]

Val, you certainly could be right that certain e105/t216/d303 combination could outsell a red crofts. I know there are at least 2 people seriously building e105 sets, but as they acquire their cards, the next example generally drops signifcantly in price as the comptition is no longer there. This happened last year with the Jacklitsch card. I am aware of 1 collector considering pursuing a set of known red crofts. The bigger issue with the price of red crofts are people looking for any example as a type.