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  #1  
Old 01-27-2007, 02:56 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Call me a contrarian....or whatever....but, I have never accepted the "broken plate" explanation for Plank, and I cannot buy
that they "yanked" the Magie card just because of a simple "spelling error". There are at least 20 other spelling errors in the
T206 set....so, I ask....why weren't they corrected ?

My conjecture is that the T206 designers initially confused Sherry Magee with a player named Magie on the Syracuse team in
the New York State Lge. Shown here is Mr. Magie, from pages in my 1906 Spalding BB Guide. Also, I've identified eight players
in this League who appear in the T206 set. Although this was Class A ball, this League was the source of quite a few HOFers
and was one of the "hotspots" of many Major Lge. scouts back then.

Furthermore, to add more "fuel" to the confusion factor, besides Magie, there was also a Magee (possibly Lee) that played in
this League at the same time......I will conclude by saying that it appears that the T206 designers were not that concerned
about "spelling errors".....but were very diligent about identifying the correct player with their picture; and, that is why they
corrected MAGIE to MAGEE.
Just consider this....here is a set with 524 cards....389 different Subjects and there isn't another wrong pix with a wrong name
....that is very rare in the production of 20th Century (large) sportscards sets.

Just some thought-provoking stuff for you T206 guys....let us hear your opinions on this subject ?

TED Z


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  #2  
Old 01-28-2007, 10:29 AM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Brian Weisner


Hi Ted,
You make an interesting argument, and it's apparent that mistakes were made throughout the set, but very few were corrected. So, Why was Magie corrected? Probably for the same reason you came up with in the Plank Thread. Maybe the American Caramel Co complained to the ATC about the use of the Philly players they had contracts with, like Plank, and they took another look at all of the Philly cards, Nat'l and American to make sure they were in compliance. Or perhaps the sports writer who was in charge of Magee's team failed to get his consent in time, so they misspelled his name on purpose so they could claim they were confused with the other "Magie". Be well Brian


PS Or Magee was a big smoker and complained about his name being spelled wrong.

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Old 01-28-2007, 11:59 AM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: T206Collector

...who would confuse some scrub minor leaguer with a bona fide star in Magee?

Moreover, it's a common spelling error -- the sound "ee" at the end of words is usually completed with a "y" or an "ie". So, that is really the most likely explanation. The fact that they didn't correct any other names is really not persuasive as to why they corrected this one -- they did change Demmitt's and O'Hara's teams and they did take Nat'l away from a few Doyles, so corrections were clearly made, in addition to Magie.

The simplest explanation is some guy caught it -- maybe he was a Magee fan -- and he decided to fix it. Simple enough.

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Old 01-28-2007, 02:53 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Dylan

Magee was a star in his day, he has both an action and portait in the set. They realized they goofed the name on his portrait and fixed it.

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  #5  
Old 01-28-2007, 04:39 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: davidcycleback

Whatever the reason behind its usage, Magie is not the correct spelling of Magee
and is an error. Is is possible the printers switched names instead of mistyped
the letter 'e'? I suppose, but the Magie is still an error.

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  #6  
Old 01-28-2007, 05:16 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

DAVID

No one is arguing whether it is an error or not.....but, I am curious how this mistake occurred ?
I am questioning that it was the result of a simple spelling mistake.....since there are 20 more
player's names misspelled in the T206 set.
And the T206 guys did not find it necessary to correct those 20 cards.

Can you explain this inconsistency ?

I feel that there was something else that caused the T206 guys to "stop the press" and quickly
correct this mistake in their very first Series production run.

TED Z

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  #7  
Old 01-28-2007, 05:27 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: davidcycleback

I don't know what cards appeared on what printing plates, but if the printing
plate was damaged they might have remade plate-- giving the chance to change
cards, rewrite text and make edits that they would have orinarilly let go by.
This is only idle speculation on my part, as I haven't thought much about the issue.

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  #8  
Old 01-28-2007, 06:01 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: john/z28jd

Ted you glossed over this answer in the last thread,so ill copy and paste it.Its different examples of the same exact situation from before the t206 set was made,sets made during that time,and a set made long after. A player had his name spelled wrong and they corrected it but they didnt correct other mistakes in the following sets which is exactly what happened with Magee in the t206 set.It should also be noted that Magee's last name was spelled wrong in boxscores too including his first career game as McGee...(heres my response on jan 21st)






The old judge set has some names spelled wrong that were never right,some were corrected in the same pose and some in different poses.


The t213 set which has the same fronts as T206s has a Solly Hofman spelled Hofmann and a corrected version spelled Hofman.It also has a Kid Elberfeld spelled wrong that they never corrected

The mayo 1895 set has a Rusie spelled Russie and one spelled Rusie yet didnt correct Ed Del"e"hanty and Otis Stock"s"dale

The m101-5 set has a John Lavan spelled Lavin then corrected yet they didnt correct Del Gainor(Gainer) Harry Coveleski"e" and Charles Comiskey(Comisky)

The 1948 Leaf set has Gene Hermanski spelled wrong Hermansk and they corrected it yet they didnt bother to fix Phil Caverretta(Caveretta),Johnny Vandeermeer,Bob Elliott(Elliot)or Larry Jensen(Jansen)

Its happened before the t206 set,its happened since

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  #9  
Old 01-28-2007, 06:14 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Dylan

Are any of the spelling errors of players names that occured in the T206 set with players that had more then one card issued to them(other then Magee) My point being that Magee and other players who had multiple cards in the set were allstars and most were later HOF's. Perhaps no one really noticed or cared about misspelling a common players name but misspelling a notable players name was worth ammending. What do you think about this?

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  #10  
Old 01-28-2007, 06:34 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Here are the 20 cards whose player's names are misspelled, that I have found....
and, there could be more....

George Brown (Chi) in 150 series....should be Browne
George Brown (Wash) in 350 series....ditto....so why didn't they correct it ?

Mickey Doolin (port) in 150 series....should be Doolan
Mickey Doolan (fldg) in 350 series....corrected
Mickey Doolan (bat) in 350/460 series....corrected

George Mullin (horiz) in 150 series....correctly spelled
George Mullen (port) in 350 series.....should be Mullin
George Mullin (bat) in 350/460 series....correctly spelled

Chief Myers (bat) in 350 series....should be Meyers
Chief Myers (catch) in 350 series....should be Meyers

Simon Nicholls (fldg) in 150 series....correctly spelled
Simon Nichols (bat) in 350 series....should be Nicholls

Ossee Schreck in 350 series....shortened from Schreckengost

Ed Willett (bat) in 350 series....correctly spelled
Rd Willetts (throw) in 350/460 series....should be Willett

And, the following players names are misspelled....listed here are the
corrected names....

Coveleski, Josh Clarke, Dinneen, Donahue, Hannifin, Kissinger, Krueger,
Livingston, Puttmann, Pfiester, Quillin, Viola

TED Z

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  #11  
Old 01-28-2007, 07:14 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Yes, Sherry Magee was an established ML player by the time the T206 set was produced.
But, the point I am trying to present here with the information from my 1906 (and the 1907)
Spalding BB Guides is that (as I pointed out), 8 other players that were in this League with
Magie (1904-1907) eventually appear in the T206 set. And, 1907 was probably the starting
time period that the T206 set was on the "drawingboard". So, you cannot lightly dismiss the
argument I am trying to make here.

Let me reiterate, this was not some "scrub minor League" (as you described it), The NY State
League brought forth a lot of great players back then. Several of which became HOFers.
If I can find where I read it, I will post a scan to the fact that some of the top BB scouts of
that period travelled to Syracuse, Troy and other teams in this League every Spring.

Incidently, Sherry Magee's career BA = .291.... this fellow, Magie, had a batting average in
the .290's while in this League and I don't know if he was ever given a tryout for the Majors.

TED Z

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  #12  
Old 01-28-2007, 08:01 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: john/z28jd

Ted,i have a better one for you. I think the 2 cards of Ted Downey really arent both him and heres why.

1- the players on the 2 cards dont look alike
2 he was a nobody,a poor fielding shortstop with no batting skills when the t206 set came out so why have 2 cards
3- his batting pose doesnt have the word Cincinnati on the uniform but his fielding pose does
4- there was a player in 1909 named Red Downey who couldve easily been confused with a guy named Downey on the Reds
5- If you look at the belt buckle on Downey in his batting pose youll notice the middle part(whatever the heck that things called) is facing backwards as if the photo is reversed
6- Red Downey was a lefty so when he they got the picture they couldve noticed this and assumed it was Ted Downey and just reversed the picture to make it correct which explains number 5

Theres no doubt in my mind that the batting pose is really Red Downey which proves they didnt get every player/card right in the set

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  #13  
Old 01-29-2007, 08:19 AM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

John, that is great stuff on the Downey cards. A fine observation and analysis. Ted, I'm working on my thoughts on Magie, but John's post was too good to not address.

One thing that has always bothered me was when collectors articulate the name, they say 'mu GEE' for the card with 2 e's (almost typed 'correctly spelled' there), and they say 'MAG e' for the card with the 'ie'. I never could understand the thinking on that, if it is the same guy. But then half of collectors mispronounce Cicotte, Evers, and Lajoie, too... and those guys are sufficiently well known for folks to get 'em correct.

I want to find out more about Magie of Syracuse...

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  #14  
Old 01-29-2007, 11:16 AM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Interesting observation.....I've never compared the two Tom Downey cards; but, I now see
what you have noticed. And yes, there was a Red Downey who played in only 19 games for
Brooklyn in year 1909.

Now, all the Cincy guys in the set are depicted with dark blue uniforms. Some have red let-
tering and red trim around the collar and some don't. None of them have that red "stuff" on
their sleeve as does the Tom Downey batting pose....what is that red on his sleeve ?.

All, Brooklyn players are depicted with white uniforms and blue lettering, so cannot make a
uniform comparison regarding a possible Red Downey picture.

You might just have something here since both Tom and Red started in 1909.

But, I must say this type of error (if so) provides more "fuel" for my conjecture on the Magie-
Magee mix-up.

Incidently, if the photo was reversed, I think the batter's grip would be shown as "cross-handed".

T-Rex TED

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  #15  
Old 01-29-2007, 01:14 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Andrew

What is the correct pronunciation of Lajoie? I have heard it several different ways from various collectors I consider to be knowledgeable.

Andrew Jerome

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  #16  
Old 01-29-2007, 01:20 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: peter ullman

i've always pronounced magee...may-gee...and I've always pronounced lajoie...lah...jooo..ee.

pete in mn

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  #17  
Old 01-29-2007, 09:00 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

LA zuh way

first sylable has same A sound as in hat.

Gotta get the record, or even better the CD, of The Glory of Their Times.

It is pronounced all kinds of ways... many are incorrect.

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Old 01-30-2007, 09:02 AM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: T206Collector

...dismissive, but I think the simplest explanations are usually the right ones. And it is easy to create conspiracy theories when no one will ever know the truth. I believe the evidence of other players whose names were not corrected is not persuasive evidence that something magical was at work in the one player whose name was corrected -- especially since Magee was a star player at the time. And, especially when it is easier to leave errors alone. That is, it would be something if there were 8 errors and 7 were corrected, leaving just 1 alone -- especially if that one were the Magie. But in the obverse, which is what we have, it is not particularly surprising.

Comparing Magee's lifetime stats in the Major Leagues with Magie's NY State League stats is pretty much irrelevant. If anything, the fact that the NY State Leaguer compiled a below .300 average lends further evidence to his obscurity. Indeed, if he was a .400 hitter, even in the minors, then he would surely be of some notoriety and might have been confused with the regular player on the Philadelphia team. But, again, the fact that we are talking about a common mis-spelling of the sound "ee" with an "ie" is evidence that it was just a phonetic issue, not a player confused with another player issue. And, again, especially since we are not talking about confusing two Major Leaguers -- regardless of what level of play the New York State League provided. If you had Magie as a player for Rochester in the T206 set, now then you might be on to something.

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Old 01-30-2007, 09:23 AM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Andrew

Frank,

Thanks for the info. I haven't heard it pronounced that way too much. I am not doubting you have it right, but just to satisfy my curiosity, with so many additional (incorrect) ways his name is pronounced (LA JOY (a like hat), LU JOY, LA JO I, LU JO I, LA JO EE, etc), how do you know for certain that is the correct pronunciation?

Andrew

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Old 01-30-2007, 09:40 AM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

When I was in the Air Force in Maine, I reported to a MSgt Jack Lajoie......and,
if you pronouced his name other than "LA-JOY"....he'd give you a stern lecture.

Hey guys, were in America....Lajoie is "LA-JOY" (in France it's something else).

T-Rex TED

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Old 01-30-2007, 10:04 AM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: T206Collector

Basically like Frank said.

I have a CD from the Baseball Hall of Fame from the Centenial in 1939, and that's how they pronounced it -- I think that's even how he was announced before he took the podium. Plus, it's how it was pronounced in the song Baseball, Gee, It's A Wonderful Game, in the Ken Burns documentary. Plus if you buy the Glory of Their Times CD, you can hear his contemporaries call him that. And finally, Wikipedia has it like this: la-ZHOWAY

Game, set, match...



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Old 01-31-2007, 12:59 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

You guys say....."LA-ZHO-WAY"

and, I say.........."LA-JOY"

and, I don't care what Ken Burns says....he ticked me off with his JAZZ documentary,
as he did not do a fair and complete rendering of some of the real Jazz greats. So, I
did not bother to see any of his other.....whatevers.

TED Z

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Old 01-31-2007, 01:57 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: barrysloate

Ken Burns did leave out some important jazz figures, but the footage he accumulated was substantial. He took an in depth look at Charlie Parker and Miles Davis, plus Louis and Duke, and unearthed a lot of other rare footage. So despite the omissions, I think he did a commendable job.

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Old 01-31-2007, 02:04 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: dan mckee

Ted, please pass me what you are smoking, I will need it for the next Reading show! I love your posts though! Your friend, Dan Mckee.

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Old 01-31-2007, 02:21 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: T206Collector

...with logic like "whatevers"

(-;

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  #26  
Old 02-02-2007, 06:07 AM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

OK....we are done with the discussion on the "LA-JOY" digression (hi-jacking)....

So now....how about some more meaningful discussion on this topic ?

Thanks,

TED Z

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Old 02-03-2007, 10:54 AM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey John, Ted...

Here's the 2 Downey card so everyone who cares (the 3 of us) can look at them.

There are 22 Cincinnati cards. Griffith has 2 cards, Huggins has 2. Both made the HOF. And the only other fellow who might have 2 cards is Downey. Both of my cards are 350 series. 1909 is Tom's first year in the majors, first game May 7th, he hit .231 in 119 games. Hardly stellar enough for 2 cards. The fielding card is only in 350, I think. The batting card is in 350 and 460. 8 of the 22 Cincy cards have a good view of a belt. Most are wide and red. The Downey batting belt is narrow. (Color isn't significant, I think, because that was created by the printer, not necessarily reality.)

I count 27 Brooklyn cards. I'd hoped one would have that big stripe on a sleeve like the batting Downey, but I don't see that. A variety of sleeve length, a jacket, a sweater, but no big stripe.

Red Downey of Brooklyn is in the majors for his first and only year in 1909, first game September 14th. He hit .258, 20 for 78 in 19 games.

The batting Downey is batting right handed, Red was a lefty. The batting Downey has lighter hair on the card than the fielding Downey, Red was a "redhead". The batting Downey card has no team logo, name or initial on it, somewhat unusual for the issue. Of the 22 Cincinnati cards, all show a letter or "Cincinnati" or part thereof, except these: Downey batting, Ewing (showing his right side and back in a follow thru so no letter would show anyway), Griffith batting (showing him from left elbow up, left side so no letter would show anyway), and McClean (who is shown from thigh up, but he has a chest protector and mask on, tools of ignorance, no letter would show anyway). Only the batting Downey shows chest but no "Cincinnati".

The American Tobacco Trust cards heavily favor the New York area. There are lots of those cards. Lots of Cubs and Tigers. That stripe on batting Downey looks way out of place (but it doesn't match with a Brooklyn uniform either), and the belt is inconsistent. Batting Downey has lighter hair (which could be attributed to artistic license as much as matching red hair). I think John is correct about this batting Downey being Red Downey, because of the focus on the New York area, because Tom didn't deserve 2 cards and it is more likely the "other" card belongs to someone else, and because the belts don't match.

What we need are some good photos of both Tom and Red, and see how the cards compare to the photos.

Frank.

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Old 02-03-2007, 11:42 AM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

If all else fails in comparing two people, I find that closely comparing the ear formation
of the two subjects makes the final determination. And, the ears in both Downey's are
identical.
So, why are their uniforms different....the batting pose could have been taken from a
photo of him in his Minor League uniform. As you pointed out, 1909 was his 1st year in
the Majors.

TED Z

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Old 02-03-2007, 01:05 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

So the eyes and the ears have it. Downey batting is the same guy as Downey fielding...

Still 2 cards for such a mediocre player seems odd.

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Old 02-03-2007, 01:40 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

FRANK W and JOHN D

Good ole buddies.....I hate to disagree with both of you, but both these T206's are of Tom Downey.
Don't let the uniform differences between these cards have you 2nd guessing those T206 designers.

The more I learn about this set and the players, the more I am impressed with it's design, structure,
and complexity.

TED Z

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Old 02-03-2007, 02:34 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

There are other players with similar career stats. like Downey's, that have multi-cards in the set.

Charley O'Leary comes to mind. Another is Mickey Doolan and there are 3 cards of him in the set.
I am sure you can think of several more.

TED Z

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Old 02-03-2007, 03:09 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Dan Bretta

I don't know much about Tom Downey, but many players who we may not think of today as anything special were quite popular in their day for reasons other than their batting average. Could explain the reason for multiple cards of average players....?

And I don't think you can look at the T206 rendering of any player and assume that is what the uniform looked like in the photo as the T206 artists could put any uniform on any player they wished. The original picture used for Roy Ellam's T206 with Nashville shows him in a uniform from a Pennsylvania minor league team.

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Old 02-03-2007, 03:10 PM
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Default MAGIE/Magee, spell error or mix up....your thoughts ?

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

O'Leary played in 615 major league games from 1904 thru 1908, Downey 0. Doolan 564 games 1905 thru 1908, again Downey 0.

Both Downey's zero.

Most of the T206 players are in there for what they were doing 1905 thru 1908. That is true for series 150 cards.

Zach Wheat's one card is a 460 series card. His first year is 1909, he played in 26 games. In 1910 he leads the league in games with 156, and bats .284 with 53 extra base hits.

Tris Speaker has one card. He's in 7 games in 1907, only 31 in 1908, hitting .158 and .224. That didn't get him on a card. Hitting .309 in 1909 and .340 in 1910 did it.

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Old 02-04-2007, 06:44 AM
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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

You are absolutely right about those players and most of the Subjects in the T206 set. The
Tom Downey cards are one of those "mini-mysteries" that we'll not be able to figure out.

Speaking about mysteries, we will be in Philly today and I will start with some research in
the Library.......wish me luck.

TED Z

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