Iconic Player?

[KCRfan1]

In your opinion, what defines a player as iconic? And, why are some players able to achieve or are viewed in that respect, and others, even with the stats / numbers, are unable to achieve that status?

[brian1961]

Lou, let me preface my remarks by saying I cannot answer all you're asking. However, in regard to why some players are able to achieve this distinction, and are viewed in that respect, there are a few key ingredients that seem to typify that kind of player.

Now, again, I am thinking in terms of a player to a city, not so much nationwide.

He seems to be someone with the same club for 8-10 years, or more.

He seems to achieve strong stats, leading his team, and is often at the top, or near the top, of the league leaders.

In clutch situations, he seems to come through the majority of the time.

He seems to be quiet, and yet affable to the press. The camera likes him, a phrase I got from the immortal directer, John Huston. Thus, he seems to give decent interviews for the papers, and proves even better in front of the camera. Athletes, when you boil it all away, are indeed entertainers. So, the combination of sport performance, especially when you "rise to the occasion", being a good interview, and finally, if you are genuinely friendly and wholesome with your fans. Of the latter, hockey players used to be among the very best with their fans. The legendary Maurice Richard, the recently deceased Gordie Howe, and Bobby Hull were adored by their legions of fans, and the feelings of love and respect were reciprocated by these three gentlemen right back to their fans. Their fan-hero relationship was priceless.

Some athletes believe the only thing they owe the fans is their best performance, and then leave me alone. I do not want to be bothered by you. Get away from me---you make me nervous. Whatever. In time, they've assassinated or bludgeoned enough of their fans emotionally, that people look at them at best as a mixed bag.

When Rocket Richard died, all Montreal went into mourning. I suspect the same will happen in Detroit with Gordie Howe's passing. Or when the time comes that Al Kaline leaves us. I sure felt that when Ernie Banks passed away, as he was my hero growing up in the suburbs of Chicago in the 60s.

I wasn't from New York, but it hurt when Mickey Mantle passed away. I was in anguish.

Summarizing, you gotta be good, be good in the clutch, and be friendly with the press and with your fans. They make you.

Or else, they wad you up like a piece of waste paper and spit on you if you ignore them, are mean to them, or hurt them or their child!

Just my nickel pack's worth. ---Brian Powell

[David W]

You can be " iconic" but not great - Joe Carter, Bill Mazeroski, Kirk Gibson.

You can be "iconic" for a brief time and then have a better post career legend - Gale Sayers Bo Jackson, Jimmy Hendrix.

Or you can be "iconic" by being in the discussion about best ever - Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, John Unit as.

[CxG Seven Dust]

Jeter comes to mind as "iconic" imo. Durability, team he played for, clutch, etc...

[packs]

To me an iconic player is someone who embodies their sport. An icon is usually specific to a generation or a location. For example, Ichiro is undoubtedly an icon in Japan. I wouldn't say he's an icon in America though. The current American baseball icon as a whole (in my opinion) is Derek Jeter.

What makes them icons? I would say it is usually a mix of talent, opportunity, playing for the right team / at the right time, and exemplifying something more than just a baseball player. For Ichiro it would be because he is a pioneer. For Jeter it was that he demonstrated unparalleled class and endurance while playing the most high profile position for the most high profile team during the most high profile dynasty in sports at the time.

[ALR-bishop]

If you originated in St Louis like I did, Stan Musial was and remains iconic, as opposed to other fine players who were there, like Gibson, Brock and Ozzie Smith.

[KCRfan1]

Al,

So what makes Musical iconic, and why aren't Gibson, Brock, and Smith viewed as such?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by David W

You can be " iconic" but not great - Joe Carter, Bill Mazeroski, Kirk Gibson.

You can be "iconic" for a brief time and then have a better post career legend - Gale Sayers Bo Jackson, Jimmy Hendrix.

Or you can be "iconic" by being in the discussion about best ever - Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, John Unit as.

One mistake, I'll fix it for you.

You can be " iconic" but not great - Joe Carter, Bill Mazeroski, Kirk Gibson.

You can be "iconic" for a brief time and then have a better post career legend - Gale Sayers Bo Jackson .

Or you can be "iconic" by being in the discussion about best ever - Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, John Unitas, Jimmy Hendrix.


Steve B

[steve B]

On a more serious note, I think it's mostly about someone who might immediately come to mind to a casual fan. Usually by being part of or better still the main player in one of an eras defining moments.

Too hard to compare Ruth to Mantle. I'll just say that in the 20's Ruth was the larger than life character that made people forget how crooked the game was before Landis. (And that's a debate for another thread entirely !)

I don't really see Mantle that way, but for a generation of NY fans he was THE player.
But then, I didn't see him play only getting interested in baseball in 73. So for me it was other players. Aaron especially.

And of course Reggie in the 70's for both Oakland and NY

A great example for the 80's would be Kirk Gibson. One amazing moment that really represents the best of 80's baseball.

Being press friendly doesn't hurt a bit of course.
Jim Rice was amazing for a number of years, but seldom got into the special games. And while he had reason to feel slighted by the press, his general unresponsiveness didn't help things.

I never really liked the hype, but yeah, Jeter has to be up there for the last couple decades. Didn't like the "best player ever" stuff, and he played for NY. but he was hard to really dislike even as a sox fan. I admired him all the more when I heard an interview where he was asked about the Fenway fans getting on him. Great response! Something like "I actually like it, Boston and NY have fans that really know baseball, and they don't get on the average guys like that. So it's sort of an honor, and one that pushes me to play harder against them." Gotta like that a whole lot.

Steve B

[MCoxon]

Iconic is a moving target. There was a time that if you made it to the cover of Life, you had transcended your vocation. But even those who made Life Magazine covers while playing don't necessarily remain popular forever.

Ted Williams, Carl Yastrzemski, Nolan Ryan. Each seem to have fallen out of favor with baseball card collectors recently, but were extremely iconic in their time and place (ie, in Boston, and nationally in the late 80s/90s for Ryan). Williams and Yaz both were on the cover of Life.

Joe DiMaggio was probably more iconic in his time in terms of transcending sports into the national culture than several others mentioned in these posts. Two Life covers. Even after he finished playing, he was still in the national consciousness (married to Marilyn Monroe; Mr. Coffee commercials; being named in the song Mrs. Robinson; heck, on Seinfeld). But he doesn't have any topps cards (or goudey for that matter), so from a card collector's stand point not as much anymore

Bob Feller was a national phenomenon and icon. He pitched in MLB at 17 while still in high school. His high school graduation was broadcast by CBS. He was on the cover of Life. He was a top 3 MLB draw in the late 30's and 40's along with Williams and DiMaggio. But in a stats-obsessed age, 266 wins (less 4 years of 25 wins each lost to WWII - which he signed up for first among ball players) doesn't cut it, and he's forgotten except in Cleveland.

More modern fan favorites weren't necessarily iconic until later, sometimes late in or even after their career.

Clemente became iconic after the 1971 World Series (when people finally paid attention) and of course after Dec 31, 1972; he was relatively unknown to the non-NL baseball fan, let alone to the broader national consciousness, before that. (he's my favorite player, I'm not dissing him)

My Two Cents

Definition of iconic
a : widely recognized and well-established
b : widely known and acknowledged especially for distinctive excellence

PETE ROSE

Iconic ? 19th Century , Pre War, Post War and Modern, and even further Regular Season vs Playoffs and World Series

[7nohitter]

David Ortiz-Boston

Rusty Staub-Montreal

Mike Sweeney-Kansas City

Mookie Wilson (though I'm loathe to admit it) NY

Tony Conigliaro - Boston

Jeff Burroughs - Texas

Sid Bream - Atlanta

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by 7nohitter

David Ortiz-Boston

Rusty Staub-Montreal

Mike Sweeney-Kansas City

Mookie Wilson (though I'm loathe to admit it) NY

Tony Conigliaro - Boston

Jeff Burroughs - Texas

Sid Bream - Atlanta

I live in KC, and Sweeney is FAR from iconic here. George Brett is, but certainly Sweeney is not. Fine player, but definitely not iconic.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by steve B

One mistake, I'll fix it for you.

You can be " iconic" but not great - Joe Carter, Bill Mazeroski, Kirk Gibson.

You can be "iconic" for a brief time and then have a better post career legend - Gale Sayers Bo Jackson .

Or you can be "iconic" by being in the discussion about best ever - Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, John Unitas, Jimmy Hendrix.


Steve B

One mistake, I'll fix it for you.

Or you can be "iconic" by being in the discussion about best ever - Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, John Unitas, Jimi Hendrix.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

One mistake, I'll fix it for you.

Or you can be "iconic" by being in the discussion about best ever - Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, John Unitas, Jimi Hendrix.

Darn! Burned by copy and paste laziness.

I'll listen to a few tracks tonight as penance

Steve B

[bravos4evr]

I tend to think that to reach "icon" status, you need to be great, charismatic,(being fan friendly helps) BUT,THE BIGGEST THING, is to stay on one team for a looong time.

If Chipper Jones had left in free agency to the Blue Jays he would have still been a great player but he wouldn't have been an icon like he was due to staying in ATL his whole career.

edit: and to add, the media helps, Jeter was treated like he was a top ten all time player, if he had played for the Twins we'd remember him in a similar vein as Barry Larkin. Great, icon of his team, but not this elite player of all time like the media treated him.

[tedzan]

The term "iconic" nowadays is an overused, and many times misplaced adjective to describe a celebrity, sports figure, etc. Whatever. The following certainly applies.......

Being fortunate (and old enough) to have seen lots of baseball games from 1949 - 1960, in my book Mickey Mantle and Jackie Robinson are the 1950's guys. And this is
how I gauge this......if you were busy at whatever in your everyday activities, and you were near a TV or radio, you stopped everything when you knew Jackie or Mickey
were at bat and your undivided attention was with them.

In the 1920's, it would have been Babe Ruth.

In the 1930's and the 1940's, Joe DiMaggio.

Also, in the 1940's, Ted Williams and Stan Musial.

In the 1960's, Sandy Koufax.

In the 1970's, Reggie Jackson and Pete Rose.


TED Z
.

[Vintagevault13]

I think of an iconic player as someone that is synonymous with a team or, more importantly, a period of time. Even non-baseball fans know icons. Hard to argue with Mantle, Ruth, or Jackie R. I would also add Aaron for breaking Ruth's "unbreakable" record. #715 provided a moment that will live on. Vin Scully said it was the most important home run call of his storied career.


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[mintonlyplz]

Originally Posted by KCRfan1

In your opinion, what defines a player as iconic? And, why are some players able to achieve or are viewed in that respect, and others, even with the stats / numbers, are unable to achieve that status?

Icons are recognizable leaders...icons are one of the greatest players of all time whose records stand the test time...and icons deliver in the clutch.

Here are mine in the Topps era:

1. Mickey Mantle...if he had taken care of his body....his records would be even more remarkable
2. Willie Mays...statistic wise very underrated...missed 2 years due to military service...most likely would have hit 700+ HRs
3. Hank Aaron...still home run king...fair and square
4. Sandy Koufax...no pitcher dominated in his prime like Koufax whose career was cut short.
5. Nolan Ryan...career no hitters and KKs unapproachable
6. Reggie...Mr October performed well when the bright lights shone. A World Series ring for each finger on one hand
7.Pete Rose...Love him or hate him. He still played the game the way it should be played with all out hustle. I would want his leadership on my team. Hit record nearly unapproachable.
8. Clemente...humanitarian and complete ball player in the field and at the plate. He could do it all: run, hit, field

For these players...I like to collect more than just their rookie cards. High prices seem to trickle down to their other cards more so than other HOFs.

[packs]

To me an icon has to be transcendent though. I don't think Clemente or Pete Rose or even Willie Mays even transcended baseball. Mantle in my opinion certainly did. As have Jeter and Ichiro (in Japan). To be an icon (IMO) means that even people who might have never seen a baseball game before in their life know who you are.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

To me an icon has to be transcendent though. I don't think Clemente or Pete Rose or even Willie Mays even transcended baseball. Mantle in my opinion certainly did. As have Jeter and Ichiro (in Japan). To be an icon (IMO) means that even people who might have never seen a baseball game before in their life know who you are.

By that standard I think you would have to include Jackie.

[packs]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

By that standard I think you would have to include Jackie.

You're right about that. I would include Jackie too.

[egri]

I keep going back and forth about whether or not Pee Wee Reese is iconic. He anchored their infield for 17 years in two cities (with a break for World War II), won seven pennants and one World Series (plus another as a coach the year after he retired), and put his arm around Jackie Robinson, but when I think "Brooklyn Dodgers", I think of Robinson, Hodges, and sometimes one or two others before getting to Reese.

[jchcollins]

Part of this I think is knowing how to separate what is "iconic" vs. who is popular right now simply due to the passage of time. There are few people still alive today that really remember Babe Ruth well, yet we know from the history books and the highlight reels that we owe pretty much the foundation of the sport to him and what he did to keep it going after the Black Sox scandal. Back when I first started collecting cards in the late 1980's, there were a good deal more '50's stars that were super popular then who seem to have fallen out of favor a bit now. Musial, as already referenced used to be referred to as the greatest hitter in the NL, and was often compared with Ted Williams. You rarely hear that kind of talk now, at least outside of St. Louis. Bob Feller was a regular on the card show circuit, and much was made of his career - the excellent start as a youngster, the 3 no-hitters, the war service. But you are right, you rarely hear Feller's name brought up today (outside of Cleveland anyway) on a regular basis when discussing all-time great pitchers, or at least it seems to me. Feller in the end I don't think helped his own cause much - as he aged there were a few notable times where he said disparaging things about Nolan Ryan or made other comments to the fact where it seemed obvious that he did not want to acknowledge the times. Who knows. On par I think he was one of if not the greatest pitcher of his era. Some of that got borne out a few years back when he was ranked fairly high in the Sporting News top 100 players of all-time. Roy Campanella is another one I point to. Back in the 1980's, there weren't many players at all who had won 3 MVP awards in their careers. That seems to be totally overlooked today in light of the mockery that Bonds made of that award. But others since have come along and won more. I think Pujols has 4.

The point is I think that times just change. I would not define iconic as different just due to the popularity of the present era. Bottom line - collect your favorites and remember why they are important to you regardless about what the rest of the collecting community or society seems to have to say about them.


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