Pricing for a PSA/DNA Certified Authentic (autographed) vs. a Graded PSA

[MCoxon]

All - any rules of thumb for how to value a PSA/DNA signed card, graded A, vs. a PSA numerically graded card?

An example would be, say:
- 1955 Topps Ted Williams PSA 6. SMR=$350
- 1955 Topps Ted Williams PSA/DNA. SMR=?

I'm sure there are situations where the difference between a graded and a signed card is bigger or smaller, depending on if:

A) the player is alive or deceased. I'd bet a deceased PSA/DNA would be closer in value, maybe more expensive than, a highly graded number. Example: 1967 Topps Maris PSA/DNA worth more than a 1967 Topps Maris PSA 8

B) the card is rare or common, e.g., a 1959 Bazooka Mickey Mantle PSA/DNA vs. PSA graded, as opposed to 1969 Mantle PSA/DNA vs. PSA graded, given there are so many more 1969 Topps Mantles and so many fewer 1959 Bazookas.

I have a specific card I'm looking at...

other thoughts? thanks, mike

[Zach Wheat]

Mike,

I would have to say it is all over the board. It depends upon the card, the desirability of the player & auto, the scarcity of the card itself as well as a number of other factors.

For instance, I have an Houtteman '53 Glendale Meats card (the key card in the set) that happens to be autographed. I am not really an autograph collector - and the autograph is PSA/DNA certified. The card is not graded. I have never seen another autographed Houtteman Glendale Meats card so it must be scarce - but I actually prefer it without the autograph.

More common cards I think you will find the opposite to be true.


Z

[brian1961]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

For instance, I have an Houtteman '53 Glendale Meats card (the key card in the set) that happens to be autographed. I am not really an autograph collector - and the autograph is PSA/DNA certified. The card is not graded. I have never seen another autographed Houtteman Glendale Meats card so it must be scarce - but I actually prefer it without the autograph.


Z

Zach, I would also prefer the beautiful and fairly rare Glendale Franks Art Houtteman without his autograph. Congratulations on at least having it, and condolences for the autograph.

We've been in the hobby long enough, I imagine, to both remember when if a Glendale Houtteman was brought put up for the live auction at the big Detroit sports collectors convention in the early 70s, more than a few collectors would inhale audibly at its presence. The bidding would be spirited. I wrote about such an occasion in my E-book on a CD, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN. It was 1973, if memory serves, though I got it right in the book. Anyway, it went down for $85. Collectors were shaking their heads at such a high price, were envious of the winner, and really, the whole place was in an uproar over that particular sale.

Least any of our brothers back talk with, "85 bucks--big deal", a '33 Goudey #149 Ruth also went down that day at the same live auction, in the ultra high-grade for the time of EX-MT, and sold for $28.

The Glendale Franks Art Houtteman sold for nearly triple of the common, but still highly desirable, Goudey Babe Ruth!

Nothing more needs to be said. ---Brian Powell

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by brian1961

Zach, I would also prefer the beautiful and fairly rare Glendale Franks Art Houtteman without his autograph. Congratulations on at least having it, and condolences for the autograph.

We've been in the hobby long enough, I imagine, to both remember when if a Glendale Houtteman was brought put up for the live auction at the big Detroit sports collectors convention in the early 70s, more than a few collectors would inhale audibly at its presence. The bidding would be spirited. I wrote about such an occasion in my E-book on a CD, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN. It was 1973, if memory serves, though I got it right in the book. Anyway, it went down for $85. Collectors were shaking their heads at such a high price, were envious of the winner, and really, the whole place was in an uproar over that particular sale.

Least any of our brothers back talk with, "85 bucks--big deal", a '33 Goudey #149 Ruth also went down that day at the same live auction, in the ultra high-grade for the time of EX-MT, and sold for $28.

The Glendale Franks Art Houtteman sold for nearly triple of the common, but still highly desirable, Goudey Babe Ruth!

Nothing more needs to be said. ---Brian Powell

Hey Brian,

Cool stuff! Wonder if it is the same card....

Z

[pokerplyr80]

If anyone figures this out let me know. I never know what to bid when a signed vintage card comes up at auction. Another net54 member and auto collector was kind enough to help with a few questions I recently had.

[Exhibitman]

I don't think you can establish an easy formula to answer this. There are too many cross-cutting factors:

--Vintage or modern signature? Many collectors (I am one) value a vintage signature over a modern one, especially for the players who lived well into the card show age and especially if their signatures became stylized over the years. Like Willie Mays. An early Mays looks nothing like the stylized scrawl he developed for signings. Or this very early Maurice Richard:



His modern signature while still very nice was simplified and stylized by comparison.

--Significance of the card? There is a growing market for rookie cards signed. I know that Hank Aaron has signed a lot of lower grade RCs in some recent private signings and they've sold at a premium to the RC in comparable grade. Yet some other cards sell at a discount signed because the autograph 'ruins' the card. At one National I bought a 1958 Bell Duke Snider, signed, at a discount to a comparable raw one. I also happily paid up for a Don Drysdale card signed back in the day (postcard mailed from Brooklyn in 1957). Drysdales are readily available signatures but the vintage provenance made this one special for me.



--Signature medium? Some favor sharpie, some favor ballpoint. Some like paint pens.

--Signature placement? There are some players notorious for signing across their faces, which 'ruins' the item. I was so disappointed when I got a TTM back from Stu Lantz, the Lakers announcer, and he'd signed right across his face (something he often does).

--Signature quality? Depending on the circumstance of the signing, the signature might be fugly or truncated. I got a Lennox Lewis in person on a 1991 Kayo that no one will ever believe is him because he was on the move and scrawled it.



Some players, especially the old-timers who were trained in cursive penmanship, had beautiful legible signatures that enhance any card they are on.




--Card and signature aesthetics? Do they work together? I wanted a Wilt Chamberlain signed card. Easy enough to find. But The Stilt usually signed in ballpoint pen, and many of his cards have significant dark areas that 'eat' ballpoint autographs, or (like his 1970) are close-ups where he ends up writing on his face. I looked at quite a few before finding this one:



Here's one where the pen used was a terrible choice:



--Illnesses? You don't have to worry about the player when buying a card but you definitely have to account for human frailty in autographs. An example is Carl Hubbell. King Carl had a stroke and signed a lot of cards in a choppy hand post-illness. The exact same vintage card with a pre-stroke signature is worth more than the post-stroke version.

In terms of what to bid, that is not an answerable question, other than you need to do your homework as to how many of that item are out there. I watched for my Satchel Paige signed card for a long time before I found what I wanted (RPPC with vintage provenance) so I knew how tough it was and that I would have to pay up for it when I bid.

[irv]

Very nice, Adam!

[RayBShotz]

Mike - I got to thinking about this card I own when I first your your post Mike.

PSA/DNA grade this Jackson sig a 10.

The card itself is really strong. Might even be an 8 but certainly is a 7.
(Its a little crooked in the holder in this scan).
Either way its a very strong card.

I won this in an eBay auction at a very reasonable price many years ago.
I've wondered whether a dual grade (card & sig) would raise or lower its value.

[Neal]

Ray, the value on the Jackson would certainly increase imo. The auto grade would remain the same (spectacular auto btw) and the card would be able to be included in a registered set - which has a value to someone.

Not sure what a dual grading fee costs, but would be worth the investment imo, and perhaps PSA would only charge for the card grade .....