Thoughts on the National...

[GKreindler]

Hey all,

So, I had a thought recently that I've been wrestling around with. I brought it up to the 800lb gorilla (Dean) today, and after our conversation, it seems like the match has gotten tougher. And at this point, I thought it was worth bringing up to the boards, as all of your opinions would be incredibly valuable. I should warn you that I'm going to ask a bit about money and how you spend your own, so please know that I do not mean to offend anyone or come across as being rude or crass. This is all just information that I'm trying to gather for my own understanding (and sanity).

For starters, some of you might remember that Dean and I did the National in Cleveland five years ago. It was the first time I had ever taken part in a convention or trade show like that. We had a GREAT time. In all honesty, it was one of my favorite long weekends of ALL time. We had a booth that was filled with larger paintings from my inventory, and there was even enough room for me to set up my portable easel and get some painting done while Dean sat around and handled other stuff (probably porn-related). The photo below illustrate it pretty well:



I got to meet a lot of people and made a ton of friends (many of whom are on this board today). It was basically an excuse for me to talk shop with fellow passionate collectors for five days and enjoy myself. From my point of view, it couldn't have been better.

But then there's Dean. He enjoyed himself for the most part, don't get me wrong, but I think he was a little bit disappointed with the actual sales that were made. In those five days, a collector purchased a 12" x 16" portrait, and another commissioned a smaller 5.5" x 10" painting of the T206 Wagner card. The larger ones, all of which included popular top-tier players like Ruth, Koufax, Cobb, Jackie, Mantle, Williams and DiMaggio didn't sell. For him money-wise, it was a losing proposition.

What Dean surmised was that though there were thousands of people who walked in and out of the convention center, only of few of them really made the jump from the idea of collecting cards to the idea of collecting art/fine art/illustrations/whatever. In other words, they were more comfortable putting their money into those cards - things that have many rubrics to determine their value - than they were with what I was doing. I did end up agreeing with him to an extent, but I also thought a lot of it had to do with the pricing. I'm not necessarily saying that they should have been lower or fairer, but the fact is, I'm well aware that these paintings aren't cheap. Not everyone is in the position to buy them if they want (which I do think sucks). The fact is, they're really a luxury item - I make stuff that people don't need. And that's especially true in a down economy. (Though it's still important for me to reiterate how grateful I am for everyone who likes what I do, whether they can afford an original or not.)

Over the past few years, I've wanted VERY much to exhibit again at the National. Any National. There's been a little bit of a problem with coming up with enough inventory (as that sort of thing does have to cut into the time I spend painting stuff on commission), but then there's also the problem that Dean mentioned. I wish that it all didn't really come down to money for him, but after all, he is my agent, so I guess it should. In the end, I think he just wants to know that if we did get a booth at some point in the near future, that he would be able to break even if nothing else, especially considering the cost of the space, all of the accoutrements within, lodging, food, transportation, and whatever else happens to come up.

Now, fast-forward to present time. Recently, Dean has started selling the small color studies I make in preparation for larger portraits (16" x 20"s and around that size). Any of you who are on his email list probably read about this a few months back. For those who aren't, in summation I do at least one of these sketches for each fully-realized portrait that I paint. In reality, they had always been for my own purposes, just stuff that I would throw in a closet and had no intention to sell. Though, I guess Dean saws the ol' dollar signs in his head and couldn't resist. And, since a number of them have been done that I have yet to turn into the larger pieces, he's been able to offer something pretty unique to his clients. I've included a few examples below:







As you can probably tell, they're rather loose and painterly. I try my best to limit my experimenting on them so that when I get to the final pieces, it's less guesswork. At 5" x 7", they're the smallest things that I create. Additionally, they're also the least expensive - Dean charges $599 for each one.

What I was wondering is whether any of you fellas thought that something like this might be an item that a larger percentage of convention-goers might be interested in. I think that the price-point isn't too bad, especially considering the cost of the larger guys, and the size makes it somewhat comparable to a typical baseball card in stature, so in my mind, that mental jump isn't so far.

My idea was that for an upcoming National, I could try to paint like 200 of them or something like that, and then just see what happens. I know that from Dean's perspective, the goal is to just knock people out with the size and presence of a larger oil painting, but I'm starting to think that for a lot of people there needs to be somewhat of a bridge there.

That idea especially applies since I feel like a lot of people do come to these conventions with a reasonable budget in mind, and perhaps, even a wishlist. I would imagine that no one is thinking that they 'need' something from me like they might need a few high-grade commons for their '54 Bowman set. I guess the hope would be to attract a number of people who would like what they see enough to inquire about purchasing one, and then not completely balking at the price. Granted, I do realize that even $599 is a LOT of money. And of course, there are just a good number of people who have no interest in what I do (which is totally fine).

In the end, do you think that these are items that people could get into in that kind of environment? Is your budget at one of these things at all conducive to that kind of purchase (and that can apply to either before or after you walk the floor and find whatever's on your list), or is that price point even too high for a casual convention attendee?

Any and all thoughts are GREATLY appreciated. You guys rule.

Thanks,

Graig

[whodey14]

Graig,

I am new to your work and think it is quite nice. I will say however as a guy that wouldn't mind dropping thousands at the national wouldn't do so in fine art. I feel like the guy that would buy at 599 or thousands would be a guy far more wealthy. The only way I would see you selling some of them at 599 is if a big collector of a certain player wanted to add something new to there collection. But a common person walking by that has a modest spending limit in mind would opt to purchase some set fillers or a nice autograph like you hinted at. I hope however you make the trip I would love to see them in person next year.

-Adam

[GKreindler]

Hey Adam,

Thanks so much for your insight.

I think that for the most part, you're right. One of the things I deal with constantly is that if a collector has, say, $10,000, is he/she going to buy one of my paintings, or maybe a game-used Campanella bat? Or maybe a really nice high-grade T206 HoFer? I expect to lose that battle nine times out of ten. Actually, more like 19 out of 20. And that's totally cool and understandable. I guess in the end, it really just takes the right kind of person, and then I have to remind myself that not everyone is that right person. And again, I don't mean to insult anyone or criticize - it's just all important stuff that I need to know about my audience, I guess.

And I VERY much hope that you'll be able to see my stuff in person someday, too. Dean has been talking about setting up next year for sure...but he's also been saying that for a few years now, too.

Booooo.

Thanks again for responding.

Graig

[whodey14]

Graig,

Was trying to not put a price on your full scale paintings, was unaware if they were $1,500, $15,000 or $150,000 haha. However using your number of $10,000 a guy who is a card/memorabilia collector on a $10k budget is like you said buying that iconic gamer, card, signature ect. It will take the guy that has everything else or big pockets and a $100k budget for the weekend to buy a $10k painting on a whim. One other thing to keep in mind is it sounds like your full scale paintings are quite large, a card can be put in a box and stored in a very small space where as your paintings take a large financial and space commitment. Hope I have positively influenced you to come to the national! Haha!

-Adam

[GKreindler]

Adam,

Trust me, you didn't need to influence me!

Graig

[Lordstan]

Wow Graig,
That is a really interesting question.
For me personally, I would rather save up to get a bigger one than spend $599 for the small ones. For that reason the smaller ones wouldn't likely be something I would buy.

In a more general sense, I think the problem is that, in my experience, most people have a plan for the national. What I mean is this. They have saved up a set sum of money and come in with a specific set of items they are looking for. Unfortunately for you, fine art isn't likely to high on the list of things that people come looking to buy. A painting of your caliber is a large enough purchase that I think only the wealthy would be able to do as a spur of the moment thing. Most of us need to budget for it ahead of time.

The small paintings are a very different thing. I think that there definitely would be more of a market for the $599 paintings than the big ones in that setting. I could see where $600 would be an amount that a much higher percentage of attendees could justify taking out of their budget for a spur of the moment buy.
Having the larger paintings there serve 2 purposes. First is to create future commissions. The second is to create buzz that would make someone who can't afford the larger purchase excited about the opportunity to purchase a smaller one at a much more modest price.

Mark

[YankeeFan]

Graig -

I don't know if the rules of the National would allow it, but what if you ran one or more raffles, like the one done here on N54 recently, while there?

I'm thinking something like $5 or $10 a chance, with a limited number of tickets sold. The prize could be a choice of one of those $599 paintings you mentioned. As you pointed out, the number of people who could or would make a $600 purchase is limited. But everyone there has $5 - $10 bucks to spare.

Depending on the price per ticket you could pick a winner after every 60 or 120 tickets sold, for example. There's a chance you could "sell" a few of those paintings each day that way.

You could also do a "larger" raffle, just like the one done here. $20 per entry and the winner gets a "painted to order" 16 x 20.

I'm sure you and Dean can come up with other workable variations.

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by GKreindler

Hey Adam,

Thanks so much for your insight.

I think that for the most part, you're right. One of the things I deal with constantly is that if a collector has, say, $10,000, is he/she going to buy one of my paintings, or maybe a game-used Campanella bat? Or maybe a really nice high-grade T206 HoFer? I expect to lose that battle nine times out of ten. Actually, more like 19 out of 20. And that's totally cool and understandable. I guess in the end, it really just takes the right kind of person, and then I have to remind myself that not everyone is that right person. And again, I don't mean to insult anyone or criticize - it's just all important stuff that I need to know about my audience, I guess.

And I VERY much hope that you'll be able to see my stuff in person someday, too. Dean has been talking about setting up next year for sure...but he's also been saying that for a few years now, too.

Booooo.

Thanks again for responding.

Graig

Graig,
I don't think it's so much the "right type" of person, but the right setting. If I come to a National having saved up to buy a Gehrig autographed photo, the probability is that I would not scrap my plan for a spur of the moment purchase. On the other hand, if I came in with the same amount, with no set plan, just looking to buy whatever strikes my fancy, then your paintings, very definitely, wind up on my short list of contenders.
I don't think it's as simple as the people want the card or bat more, I think it's that people aren't likely to be thinking about buying a painting when they are planning/budgeting for the national.
Mark

[bobfreedman]

Greg, while I understand your situation, I do believe that you should attend the Nationals and here is why,
I never would have known who you were prior to meeting you at the Nationals five years ago and had I not met you, I would have never seen your work in person. Don't get me wrong, your pictures that you post of your paintings are great but, there is nothing like seeing them in person. You cannot overstate how important word of mouth is either i.e. Friends telling friends and the publicity you receive from being there etc...

Have you thought about possibly partnering with a few of the companies attending the Nationals and placing your artwork at several of them and work with them on consignment? Also, maybe do a raffle or two at the Nationals working with Mike Berkus (the head honcho that runs the show)?

I do not know how much it costs you and Dean to attend and I am sure you have calculated how many of the small paintings you would have to sell to break even, so I can't tell you if I think it is feasible but, I do believe those painting would sell better than the more expensive and larger painting.

Thanks and again, I hope you can attend, IMHO

[prestigecollectibles]

I first met Graig at the National in Cleveland and although I did not purchase anything at the show I am proud to currently own three paintings and a few studies. Having seen his work in person made it easy for me to make future purchases. Below is a painting of Japanese Hall of Famer Eiji Sawamura he did for me.

[MGHPro]

Graig
Have you considered selling giclees or limited edition prints or lithos ? I would prefer to a have a larger piece that could be a focal point vs a small original .. The studies are great but the details in your larger pieces are awesome .
Matt

[Scott Garner]

FWIW, I totally agree with many of the points that Mark and Bob just posted.
Additionally, I believe that the value of you attending The National is for you the artist to "cast a larger net" which will reach collectors that still do not know about your incredible work.

I must admit that I commissioned a painting with you before I ever saw your work in person. As a person that really appreciates painting per se (I love many different styles), I believe that this opportunity would be huge, plus I really like you as a person having worked with you now.

I hope to see you in Cleveland this year, although my time there is going to be very brief due to other obligations.

Keep up the incredible work.
All my best,
Scott

[Deertick]

Graig,
I agree with some of the other comments. I do think that is a combination of price point and desire, with the latter being more relevant. HOWEVER, I think the exposure acts as targeted advertising. I have been to several Nationals and many large regionals and each time I went with a budget and a wantlist. That is not to say I haven't purchased some things way off of my radar going in, but those items were in the minority. But the most important aspect that I think relates to you and your (awesome!) work is I have seen items and made the purchases at a later date from vendors that I have met there that otherwise I would have never been exposed to (pre-internet).
While we at Net54 are all familiar (and covetous) of your pieces, someone viewing them for the first time may take a little time to justify/decide/budget for their purchase. This obviously doesn't bode well for the balance book at the end of the National, but I believe may pay off in spades for the future.

edited to add: What Scott said.

[thecatspajamas]

Not speaking from my own experience, but one guy that I know who sets up at the National every year does so more for making contacts and getting leads than for trying to realize sales. He deals primarily in game-used items, and will take some pretty high-end stuff for show, but doesn't necessarily expect to actually sell much at the show. I would think your paintings would be the same way, in that you might not sell many (or any) large pieces at the show, but through lots of hand-shaking and pressing the flesh, would expect to come away with some commissions or at least having made contacts that would yield commissions down the road. As far as the larger pieces go, I really don't think you or Dean should be expecting spur-of-the-moment purchases, as to me, that sort of purchase requires a bit more planning and forethought, not just because of the $ involved, but also because the personal connection with the subject and involvement in its selection seems to be a much more integral part of the process.

On the other hand, if you're looking for something to specifically fund the trip and make it immediately pay for itself, I would think that smaller pieces or something like the forthcoming book (*ahem* any updates there?) would be ideal for bringing to the National as those would fall closer to the spur-of-the-moment purchase category. They would also be much easier for buyers to transport back home than the larger pieces.

That's my 2 cents anyway. (And glancing back at the thread, I see that I'd better go ahead and post this before EVERYTHING gets restated pre-stated in more eloquent fashion )

OT question: What is that little standee/statue thing on the table in the shot from 5 years ago? It looks a lot like the things George Burke used to make for players occasionally (I know, I know, it's the one thing in the photo that is NOT an awesome Kreindler painting, and I'm sure many fists are shaking with utterances of "If he mentions George Burke one more time...")

[parker1b2]

I agree with most of what everyone is saying. I think getting people to see your paintings in person would generate sales down the road.

Last year me and a few buddies went to a wine festival where they had various wineries and vendors set up. This one guy had very high end wine themed furniture, wine racks etc. It was a 3 day festival and we were there late day two. We were talking to the guy and he said he didn't make any sales, but a lot of interest and contacts. We took his, card and a few months later my friend made a large purchase from the guy for his backyard. My friend probably would never have sought out that type of furniture, and was not going to make a purchase like that at the festival, but by seeing it in person, he decided to buy it later on.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by parker1b2

I think getting people to see your paintings in person would generate sales down the road.

This. The marketing and creating awareness of your work to the perfect target audience I would think would be worth the price of the trip (even if you were to not actually sell a single piece at the show).

I for one fell in love with your work only after seeing David's Smokey Joe in person at one of the Nationals.

[Kawika]

Graig: Five years ago you were just bursting on the scene. Your amazingness hadn't sunk in yet. At the best of times it's a lot to expect the average show attendee to buy a 5 or 10 $K painting on impulse so it's no wonder you didn't have great sales. But the exposure to your works and the opportunity for folks to meet the artist has got to be a positive even if you don't sell many paintings. Anybody who hasn't seen your works in person is missing the better part of the experience - I just look up from my keyboard and Smokey Joe Wood is looking back at me and I am blown away every time. And you can remind Dean that the Cobb Sliding piece did sell as a result of the Cleveland National. I wasn't there but when I saw it on a post about the show I jumped on it. As for the small studies, I understand that you don't want to be a starving artist, and Dean doesn't want to be a starving agent, but to me it just cheapens things a little bit. Keep on painting masterpieces and leave the tchotchkes to Dick Perez.

[Leon]

That is a great painting!!

[billyb]

Graig,

Definitely show your paintings at the National. I would also take a look at whose signing at the National. Maybe select a couple of the top stars, get the okay from the National Organizers and ask of you could display, your painting, of the star when he is signing. The cost of the 200 smaller paintings would probably be the same as a couple larger pieces you could display.
And you have enough credibility to approach MLB about paintings done by you for the MVPs of each league. I think you are that good.
Aim high my friend, you have the talent. The smaller pictures, I would avoid selling too many of those (the 200 mentioned).

[hcv123]

Hi Graig,

I echo much of what has been shared already, but am weighing in as someone who has never seen your work in person, is a hard core collector and not so into paintings.
1) I agree you need to decide what market you are in - high end or low end (or wherever in between) - to have the 5x7's that you use to make the "good stuff" sold as a "consequence" of making a larger fine art painting is different than painting the smaller ones trying to make sales. I agree with the comment that such a move could "cheapen" the perception of your work in the marketplace.
2) I think the number of "lead generation" and exposure comments are spot on as well. Especially looking at the product that you offer, looking to "justify" the expense of showing by "breaking even" in show sales is VERY short sighted. There would be no marketing and advertising industry if companies expected an immediate roi equal to their investment in such things. I think it would be smarter to try to demographically identify who your customers are/have been and determine if the national is a good venue to get exposure to more people that fit that demographic. If not, where are they? How do you get in front of them?
3) I think a collector like me is part of the reason you saw so few sales at the national you showed at - I have spent thousands on cards and memorabilia. I even own a couple of memorabilia connected paintings, but appreciate fine art more from a museum perspective ( I like visiting and looking at it) than owning it. While I am sure I would be wowed given all I have read about your work, it is highly unlikely that I would buy a painting. A part of that is consideration of future appreciation or resale (When I buy cards or memorabilia I know I will be able to resell one day (gain loss, etc.). If I wanted to/needed to- how quickly would I be able to resell a painting - at what level of appreciation or depreciation? It would be a MUCH smaller market and arguably greater risk of depreciation in the short term. Not to get morbid here, but haven't most of the great fine artists work appreciated after they have left this world?
4) You clearly are an AMAZING fine artist. I applaud your courage in opening a dialogue exploring ways to make a good business/living out of it. It is a very different question than the quality of the work you do.
Be well and good luck. If you end up showing I will be sure to bring my 7 year old (his first national) by so we can take in your work in person.

-Howard

[timzcardz]

Originally Posted by prestigecollectibles

I first met Graig at the National in Cleveland and although I did not purchase anything at the show I am proud to currently own three paintings and a few studies. Having seen his work in person made it easy for me to make future purchases.

Originally Posted by Kawika

And you can remind Dean that the Cobb Sliding piece did sell as a result of the Cleveland National. I wasn't there but when I saw it on a post about the show I jumped on it.

I don't know what more could be said. It's all about targeted exposure. The direct/indirect benefit from that exposure is difficult to quantify.

A was mentioned elsewhere here, the coffee table type book that you have mentioned previously would be an ideal quick sale at The National. Autographed and personalized to collectors would be provide incredible targeted exposure. How many fellow collectors would the books sold be seen by? How many commissions would it lead to?

There are sales, and then there's marketing. For you, I would think that The National would be more about marketing . . . and marketing is about future sales.

[perezfan]

I work for a major food company who participates in dozens of trade shows every year. We rarely (if ever) sell enough product at these shows to recoup the booth fees and sample product given away.

It's all about the PR and building brand awareness. It is a long-term investment. If you look at the immediate term, and only "turning a profit", you are missing the boat. Same seems true for your situation. The Coffee Table Book signing idea is a great one. Something classy that people could easily afford... and would undoubtedly lead to future sales. I much prefer this option to selling the small studies (and potentially cheapening the "Kreindler brand").

That said... I am intrigued by the Agent/Artist relationship dynamic. Who makes the final call in the end... you or Dean? I'm pretty sure most of us are hoping it's you

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Kawika

As for the small studies, I understand that you don't want to be a starving artist, and Dean doesn't want to be a starving agent, but to me it just cheapens things a little bit. Keep on painting masterpieces and leave the tchotchkes to Dick Perez.

David, your comparison to Perez' work is completely invalid - Graig's small studies are much better quality than anything Dick Perez does, and there is nothing cheap about them.

[Runscott]

Graig, I think 200 is way too many - that changes them from 'studies' to something else. I would go all-out as you did in the National 5 years ago, bringing some of the larger paintings, but also bring maybe 20-50 of the smaller studies to gauge interest in that sort of thing.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by perezfan

i work for a major food company who participates in dozens of trade shows every year. We rarely (if ever) sell enough product at these shows to recoup the booth fees and sample product given away.

It's all about the pr and building brand awareness. It is a long-term investment. If you look at the immediate term, and only "turning a profit", you are missing the boat. Same seems true for your situation. The coffee table book signing idea is a great one. Something classy that people could easily afford... And would undoubtedly lead to future sales. I much prefer this option to selling the small studies (and potentially cheapening the "kreindler brand").

That said... I am intrigued by the agent/artist relationship dynamic. Who makes the final call in the end... You or dean? I'm pretty sure most of us are hoping it's you

+100

[shelly]

If you paint it they will come and see it.

[Kawika]

Originally Posted by Runscott

David, your comparison to Perez' work is completely invalid - Graig's small studies are much better quality than anything Dick Perez does, and there is nothing cheap about them.

Agreed with you on the quality of Graig's works. Matter of semantics. My yiddische mama (no joke here, I really had one) referred to little incidental things as tchotchkes, no value or judgement necessarily implied. (The real crap was chazzerai, fit only for pigs).

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Kawika

Agreed with you on the quality of Graig's works. Matter of semantics. My yiddische mama (no joke here, I really had one) referred to little incidental things as tchotchkes, no value or judgement necessarily implied. (The real crap was chazzerai, fit only for pigs).

I see what you mean. Perez did actually cheapen his work. The stuff he did early on;e.g-for the 'Great Moments' series, was in some cases very good, but the stuff you see in auctions now doesn't generally even resemble the players he is trying to depict. I'm sure he could do better work if he would slow down.

[Jantz]

Graig

If you don't spend the money on a booth at the National, you're just going to spend the money somewhere else.

Your talent should be seen and appreciated.

You said it yourself that you had a great time.

Hope to see you there. I'll buy the first round.


Jantz

[GKreindler]

Hey everyone,

Thank you all for your wonderfully thought-out replies. You've certainly given me a lot to chew on, and I seriously appreciate your candor. Now, I have to warn you, I didn't really end up editing this post or anything, so hopefully I don't sound too weird or bitter - it's definitely not my intention.

Before I jump to anything, I wanted to answer a few of the questions that some of you posed:

Matt, the issue with the prints and lithographs is a headache, as it all comes down to a lot of legal red tape which is super expensive to cut through. In essence, the paintings that I make are the safest bet for me right now, as since they're one-of-a-kind originals, I'm protected under my first amendment rights. However, if I were to make prints, giclèes, lithographs or any other kind of reproductions of a particular piece, then I would be using it for commercial purposes. So, if I'm doing a painting of Babe Ruth, if I don't buy the permission to do so, I could be in trouble with not only the people who run the estate of Ruth (CMG), but also MLB, MLBPA, the photo service I'm using the photograph from, or any number of others. In other words, if I'm making money off of their clients, they feel as if they're entitled to a slice (which they certainly are). Securing such licenses is a VERY expensive thing to do. I remember chatting with Mickey Mantle's estate about 10 years ago, and they said that in order for me to sell prints depicting the man, they would need 25% of the royalties, 20 copies of the particular print, and around $30,000 down. And that's JUST for Mantle, for one project. MLB licenses run around $50,000 a year these days from what I've heard. It's possible that I could just do it and fly under the radar, but it's a risk I'd care not to take (and for the record, 'yes', they're PLENTY of artists out there who are doing so without permission from whomever owns the intellectual property). With that in mind, it's gotta just stay as originals for now. Though, if the right opportunity presents itself with creating reproductions, then I'll surely listen.

Lance, for starters, the book seems to be on a bit of a hold. To be honest, I'm not quite sure what the holdup is on Dean's end, though I imagine it has something to do with people not returning phone calls or emails (which seems to be the trend this year). And in regards to the Feller silhouette, it was given to us by the people at Photofile. I'm not really sure why, to be honest, but when we met with their owner Chuck Singer, he gave it to us when we told him we were heading to Cleveland. I thought it was a pretty neat thing to have, so we kept it around the booth. Whether they sell them regularly or not, I'm not even sure.

Mark, in the end, I think it's up to me regarding certain decisions. Though, what's good is that Dean and I are in constant contact, and he's always concerned about where I'm going with my career, both in regards to how I feel about the journey and where I want to see myself. So in the end, if there was something that he thought we should really do that I didn't agree with, I theoretically could put the kibosh on it. But, because of our relationship, I feel like we wouldn't ever really get to a major fork that we were completely diametrically opposed to. Or at least, I hope not.

If I've forgotten to answer something, forgive me, but I think I got them all?

Now, I think you're all right about the National. The main thing is, it's a great place to meet people and just get my work in front of them. And in all honesty, that was always the most important part of it for me. That's one of the reasons why I still go today, even if I don't have a booth. Just getting to meet people and talk about similar passions is a beyond fun. And of course, the fact that I have a few good buddies to troll around the floor with and tell jokes to NEVER hurts.

But seriously, the fact is, these paintings aren't cheap, and that applies to both the studies and the full-blown ones. And some of you mentioned that it's not the kind of money and decision that is normally made on the fly. Especially at a place where 'fine art' doesn't really appear on many people's wishlists and in many cases, budget.

Howard brought up a really good point about deciding what market I'm in. And I guess when it comes down to it, that's a big problem for me. Going to an art trade-show, you know that you're setting up for people who want to buy art. In a way, a lot of them are prepared to spend the kind of money necessary to acquire whatever pieces they fall in love with, so if they see a price tag of $40,000, they're not completely shocked out of contention. But some of the issues that I have there is the subject matter. It's sad to say, but when art collectors see my work, though they might like the handling of the paint, baseball as a focus ends up being a bit kitschy to them. It's almost like if I'm not displaying a landscape or a nude then the work I'm making isn't worth the investment.

And then, if I go to a place like the National, a lot of people don't see the paintings as 'fine art,' but more of a unique collectible - something that doesn't take the place of the cards or memorabilia that they're seeking out. Some of them don't see any value in having the painting unless it's paired with something. I had a one dealer at Cleveland mention to me that the paintings were alright, but they really needed was to be framed and signed by the players to be worth the prices Dean was asking. I know that he didn't have any malice in his words or anything, but hearing that really made me think that maybe I was barking up the wrong tree.

I think ideally, I'd like to be straddled in the middle. When I started doing these paintings, I just really got into the idea of bridging the gap between sports and art in a different way than others had. I feel like everybody out there creates paintings for the sole purpose of producing prints and lithographs, many of which are signed by the athletes and sold through their websites and then eventually, the secondary market. And there's nothing wrong with that at all, but to me, it almost ends up that these pieces are looked at as products and not works of art. I never wanted to feel that way about the stuff I was making myself, nor did I want others to feel the same way. I thought that having sports collectors see paintings and develop an appreciation for the medium could be a wonderful thing, no matter how rare the occasion. I feel like some people have made that jump because of me, which I'm incredibly humbled to even fathom.

But I guess this is the kind of stuff that can hopefully happen over time. Rome wasn't built in a day, right? I'd like to think that if I put my head down and keep doing what I'm doing, some good has to come out of it. And of course, a lot of this stuff needs to fall on the shoulders of Dean, as he's the brains in that department, but I can't imagine that it hurts for me to think about it. Either way, it's nice to obsess over something else besides becoming a better painter. I think.

I do like the idea of the raffle, Jack, and it's something I'll pose to Dean at some point. Granted, I would love to finish the one from the boards and call it a success before even considering it (but of course, I'm still waiting for the image). But I think it's a nice way to attract a buzz and help Dean recoup some of those immediate expenses. Also, a couple of you mentioned the ideas of approaching the organizers and auction houses too, which I also really like the idea of, so again, something to bring to Dean's attention.

Again, thank you all for taking the time to read and respond to this nutty brain fart of mine. It's VERY much appreciated.

Graig

[Runscott]

Your response sounded weird and bitter.

[GKreindler]

My legacy continues.

[Big Ben]

Graig,

I have attended two National Conventions. While I have gone there with a specific plan as to what to purchase, I have also found that i have saved and purchased items from vendors sometimes months after I met them at the show. From that standpoint, I feel that going to a future National will be very beneficial to you and I really hope that you go to next year's National in Chicago so I can meet you!

Your paintings speak for themselves and will attract people to your booth. Personally, if you sell some 5x7's I know that I would purchase a couple. You are a very talented artist! Keep doing what you are doing and you will gain even more notoriety. That happened to a friend of my family who was able to attain a very high degree of acclaim.
Best of luck to you and I will say this again. Please go to the National in Chicago next year!

[Runscott]

I agree with Ben. I've only bought two paintings in my life, so obviously I have no collecting inclination in that direction, and both of those paintings are Graig's. That says something about his work and it's ability to sway hobbyists toward related items they wouldn't normally purchase.

[frankbmd]

"It's almost like if I'm not displaying a landscape or a nude then the work I'm making isn't worth the investment."


Nude Hall of Famers ?

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Nude Hall of Famers ?

Well that casts the image of a crouching Honus Wagner in a whole new light. Yuck!

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

Well that casts the image of a crouching Honus Wagner in a whole new light. Yuck!

Damn, Lance. You just had to go there. Didn't you.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Damn, Lance. You just had to go there. Didn't you.

I figured if I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight, nobody else should either

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

I figured if I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight, nobody else should either

Lance,

If it weren't for my respect for Graig and not wanting to ruin his thread, I would post a picture of John Kruk for you. Plus, there might be children who read the board and I wouldn't want to permanently scar them.
Enjoy that image!
Mark

[Exhibitman]

Nearly 20 years ago I was lucky enough to be in NY during a one-man show of an emerging artist. Really stunning stuff--Old Master caliber work. The gallery had everything from giant oils to small sketches. My wife and I spent two days marveling at the work. We weren't comfortable with a multi-thousand dollar purchase of an oil so we opted for an ink study at $1,000 instead. My point is that when you are offering artwork at a show setting or in a gallery open to the public you are essentially asking a potential customer to start a relationship with you, try out your product, so to speak. What you want is for the shopper to become a customer and that requires an entry level item. A guy like me isn't likely to plunk down several thousand dollars on a big canvas at the show--what if I do it and then my wife vetoes hanging it in the house--but might very well pick up a small, modest piece that only costs a few hundred dollars. If you turn a shopper into a customer with something modest you may find yourself selling something more expensive to the customer later. The key is to start the relationship. I think a modestly priced study or sketch offering is the way to go.

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Lance,

If it weren't for my respect for Graig and not wanting to ruin his thread, I would post a picture of John Kruk for you. Plus, there might be children who read the board and I wouldn't want to permanently scar them.
Enjoy that image!
Mark

Ummmm, no thanks Sorry for the sidetrack, Graig. I blame it all on Frank for bringing it up and my proclivity for low-brow humor for carrying it over the line

At the risk of adding something productive, as others have hinted at, I think there is a difference between selling sketches, studies, and such as "by-products" of the fully-realized paintings, and purposely producing those smaller pieces just to fill out that lower price-point category of offerings. I think I'd rather see that time devoted to producing the fully-realized full-size pieces, knowing that is where your desire lies. Now if you were interested in exploring some new technique best applied at the smaller size or exploring working on a smaller scale, I would feel differently, but personally, with my "art for art's sake" hat on, I'm not comfortable with the price point of the end product being the driving force for what direction your art takes. I guess if it came down to where the big pieces just weren't selling and it was the difference between putting food on the table and going hungry, all of us would understand, but I wouldn't let that drive the decision of which side of the table you're standing on at the National either.

[johnmh71]

Graig:

Speaking as a collector with a typical max of $500, the $599 price point actually makes me a possible collector of your stuff. I give the idea of smaller pieces a thumbs up.

[GoCubsGo32]

Graig has a very special talent. His work speaks for itself. Unfortunately, I'm one of those people that will never be able to purchased a full size painting (thank you student loans..). I love the idea of the studies. I know people could drop the $599 for a study painting I would still have to save up for one.$599 is a lot for a 5x7 but, I'd try to find a way to do it. Of course,I would love a full painting, but having an original study would be the best that I afford at this time. In terms I agree, the studies would help build that bridge for an affordable method of owning an original painting of yours.

I have never been to Nationals, but I hope to one day. When I do go.. I hope to see a booth from Graig set up. Building the relationship is important and to getting your brand out there.

I know you probably do a live painting on a piece when you are there. Have you thought about doing a painting "class" at Nationals for like 45 mins throughout the day? You could charge $5 for kids $10 for adults to cover cost of the oil paints and such. I know it maybe tough, but I think it would be fun, but most important...engaging. It would help build the relationship and it would create a great memory. It wouldn't be a full portrait, it could just be a painting of a baseball bat on grass/or clay. Something easy,fun, and affordable for everyone.It might help cover a little of the expenses for your trip as well. I'm a novice artist myself, but I'd still paid $10 or more for a short class taught by Graig himself. In addition, I'd be able to take home a painting I did, that was taught by you.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by thecatspajamas

At the risk of adding something productive, as others have hinted at, I think there is a difference between selling sketches, studies, and such as "by-products" of the fully-realized paintings, and purposely producing those smaller pieces just to fill out that lower price-point category of offerings. I think I'd rather see that time devoted to producing the fully-realized full-size pieces, knowing that is where your desire lies.

Lance, I think almost everyone who is in the market for the large, more expensive paintings, would agree with you. The problem is that those people generally consign Graig to create a painting for them, and won't be at the national buying his large paintings. Also, Graig's studies don't look like a normal painter's studies - I've shown mine to artists and they were amazed that these were 'only' studies.

[Wynn0013]

I can understand everything that has been voiced by other posters and I agree with most, but I too work from a smaller budget and am thankful that there are other, lower priced, options. Without the paint studies it would be beyond my consideration.

Hopefully this past raffle produces fruit and there is another in the future.

Graig, your work if phenomenal!

After removing my bias, and only in my opinion, it would make sense to take larger pieces that capture the feeling of a consigned piece and the full potential of a work while displaying a few (5-10?) small studies that are portable and more easily purchased on the whim at a convention. It is a bit of splitting the difference.

[MikeMankin]

Craig, will these studies or smaller paintings ever be available to purchase without attending the National? I think the $500-$600 price range is very doable for not only National attendees, but many others of us out here.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Wynn0013

I can understand everything that has been voiced by other posters and I agree with most, but I too work from a smaller budget and am thankful that there are other, lower priced, options. Without the paint studies it would be beyond my consideration.

Hopefully this past raffle produces fruit and there is another in the future.

Graig, your work if phenomenal!

After removing my bias, and only in my opinion, it would make sense to take larger pieces that capture the feeling of a consigned piece and the full potential of a work while displaying a few (5-10?) small studies that are portable and more easily purchased on the whim at a convention. It is a bit of splitting the difference.

I agree with this sentiment. It is human nature to want choices. That is why there is small, medium and large. And that is why there are generally 3 different grades of gasoline (I understand different engines require higher octane but still...). And I echo all of the good sentiments above too. To get your name out there in the public, to an interested audience (mainly sports), there are few places like the National Sports Collectors Convention. Even if you sold nothing there, it would probably make sense to set up (maybe split a booth or some costs, somehow, if need be.) I suspect there will be more collectors and general attendees that can afford $500-$600 than $3000++, especially in an impromptu fashion.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by GKreindler

Hey all,

So, I had a thought recently that I've been wrestling around with. I brought it up to the 800lb gorilla (Dean) today, and after our conversation, it seems like the match has gotten tougher.


We had a booth that was filled with larger paintings from my inventory, and there was even enough room for me to set up my portable easel and get some painting done while Dean sat around and handled other stuff (probably porn-related).

Graig - your work is incredible. While I will never own one of your large pieces, I would love to. I agree with what everyone is saying re: exposure, contacts, leads, etc.

My question is.....why do you need an agent especially given the fact you do not intend to do pieces that require licensing, etc? Your comments about Dean (above) lead me to believe you don't exactly love the guy. Am I reading them wrong?

Good luck in the future!

[GKreindler]

Hey everybody,

Thanks again for all of your thoughtful responses to this thread. And, I VERY much appreciate the kind things you've said about me and my work.

Let me also say that I'm glad I read Frank's comment about nude Hall of Famers after I woke up the next morning - a frightening thought, indeed.

Gary, I do like the idea of a class thing. I have a feeling that the logistics would be a bit complicated to set up, so I think I'd have to leave that to Dean, but in the end, I feel like it could really be a great experience. I know that at some engagements, Charles Fazzino does workshops with kids where they're able to create their own pieces of Pop Art, so he would be a great person to chat with about it, I'm sure. I would just find myself wondering if the big-wigs at the National would even allow that kind of thing in their space?

Mike, the studies are actually available to anyone at any time. I have a bunch listed on my website now, plus a few more that will go up in a few days. I usually just end up putting them on the website as I get them out of storage. I'm pretty sure Dean allows other portrait studies to be commissioned as well, but since what we have in possession were initially done for my own purposes and not to be sold, I think he wanted to charge $699 for those.

Rob, I actually do like Dean very much. I think it might come across that I don't through some of my comments, but I guess it's just my way of giving him sh*t (even though I don't think he reads these message boards). He really is a great guy and a wonderful agent, and I do consider him a friend. Of course, like any business relationship, there can be disagreements here and there, but we're definitely in this journey together, and hopefully the long haul. So yeah, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that we don't have a good thing going. (Does that sound weird to anybody else?)

Also, it's not so much that I'm not creating images that require licensing. Technically, we could license all of the images that I paint, but it comes down to getting everything in order legally to do so, and then of course, how to do it so that it doesn't diminish my 'brand.' I think when it comes to the whole reproduction thing, the latter is the absolute most important thing to me.

I think in the end, that's why I agreed to let Dean sell the smaller studies. At first, like I mentioned before, they were just made as prep-work. I hadn't intended on ever selling them, as they've just been sitting in a storage space for years (which constantly gets restocked, as I continue to do them). But the fact is, I do like being able to offer them up for sale, especially to those who might not be able to afford a larger painting, especially since the whole print thing is seemingly a far-off destination. The fact is, you guys have all been so wonderful and supportive of me on this whole journey, and it's nice to be able to feel like I'm giving something back. I feel like the raffle was an attempt at that idea, as well.

When it comes down to it, I just don't want anyone to think that my part in all of this is completely based on what I'm hoping can be achieved financially. Of course it does have to play somewhat of a role in my decision-making, but the main priority for me is to do the best work that I possibly can. And when it comes to my relationship with Dean, we're both trying to find as many ways to get it to you guys in as many tasteful ways as possible.

Regardless, I will definitely be exhibiting at the National at some point in the future, with all sizes of work available. And like I did before Cleveland in '09, I'll be looking forward to the experience like nobody's business.

Thanks again, y'all.

Graig

[stlcardinalsfan]

Graig,
You probably don't remember, but I did see your work and briefly met you at the national in Cleveland. I was very impressed by your work and eventually commissioned a painting the next year. Seeing your work in person and a referral from a mutual friend (Ben) helped me realize that I wanted to purchase a painting. Furthermore, talking with you at last year at the national makes me even more proud to own the Gehrig painting.
I have set up at a National as well and did do okay financially, but the exposure far outweighed the immediate financial gain. I met many fellow collectors who have proven to be very good contacts.
In my opinion, your booth also needs to boast about your accolades. You are very talented and your art speaks well, but people need to know that you art hangs in various museums, usps published your paintings, and TOM Brokaw endorses your art work etc... People are followers, I think this will also persuade people to buy at the show or later commission. As I sit on my paddle at one of the two live auctions at the national (that will realize 2-5 million in 100 lots) people Do have money to spend. You are the best sports artist out there people have to see you to realize that.
I've rambled too much but remind me to share a few ideas that might allow you to get a foot in the door with the current players. Jamie