Honest Question re: Boxing

[mschwade]

When I drive to work, I tend to have a lot of thoughts run through my head. Just the other day, I was thinking about how dead boxing has become as a sport. I listen to ESPN Radio everyday and I never hear mentions of boxing anymore.

Lennox Lewis was the last great heavyweight and after his retirement, it wasn't long until MMA burst onto the scene. All my friends have MMA "watch parties" now similar to what I had for boxing 15-20 years ago. Split the costs of the pay-per-view and order a bunch of pizzas and beer. There seems to be very little interest in the sport of boxing with the 40 and below crowd.

Purists might not want to hear the question I am about to pose, but I am going to ask it. I know there are a lot of passionate boxing collectors on here, but once they're gone, will there be any value left in boxing autographs?

[slidekellyslide]

Good question...MMA is killing boxing and now I'm hearing Dan Patrick shilling constantly for something called Bare Knuckles Boxing. I can't even tell you who the champions are in boxing anymore and my brother and I used to get every PPV. I believe there will always be interest in the big names like Ali, Marciano, Jeffries, but if there are fewer and fewer fans of boxing in the future it should stand to reason that the values of the autographs will go down.

[JimStinson]

Having grown up around the sweet science I don't think there is any sporting event that equals a good boxing match....The Thriller in Manila, The Rumble in the Jungle, Duran vs Leonard I , Leonard vs Hearns I, Hagler vs Hearns those are classics and there are hundreds more.

I have tried VERY hard to watch UFC and other non-traditional fighting events and I just don't get it , bores me to death.

From a collecting point of view and with the exception of Muhammad Ali ...Boxing autographs and memorabilia in general were in my opinion always undervalued. A prime example would be autographs of Joe Louis or Sugar Ray Robinson , probably the most undervalued autographs in ALL of collecting in light of their iconic status and contribution to American Culture.

But the market for boxing autographs in Europe and around the World is stronger than it is here in the USA. You'd have a tough time selling a Babe Ruth or Jackie Robinson to a collector in the UK, But offer up a Harry Greb or John L. Sullivan and you've hit a home run so its relative.

As for the decline in popularity Boxing has always had its ebbs and flows , All it takes is one "personality" to jump start it again. Another Muhammad Ali, Ray Leonard, Oscar De La Hoya or Mike Tyson would be all it would take.

When I was working as a boxing judge in Asia 30,000 in attendance at an outdoor arena was considered the norm. So still pretty popular there , just not here. Have attached a pic taken when I worked my first World Championship fight , that's me 4th from right....

There were over 50,000 fans in the arena that day and little did I know at the time that there was such bad blood between the fighters that the commissioner had instructed that all three judges and referee be at least 20 miles away from the venue when the decision was announced..
______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

I BUY BASEBALL AUTOGRAPHS
stinsonsports.com

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by mschwade

All my friends have MMA "watch parties" now similar to what I had for boxing 15-20 years ago. Split the costs of the pay-per-view and order a bunch of pizzas and beer. There seems to be very little interest in the sport of boxing with the 40 and below crowd.

Purists might not want to hear the question I am about to pose, but I am going to ask it. I know there are a lot of passionate boxing collectors on here, but once they're gone, will there be any value left in boxing autographs?

I'm in the same boat. In college 20 some years ago, I followed boxing -- or at least watched the big fights -- with all my buddies. For a while in the 90s I picked up a number of boxing autographs and would go to shows to see boxers.

Now, I watch MMA when it's on one of the free channels and enjoy it. After the Lewis and Holyfield era, I could not name a current champ or contender... yet I know many of the MMA fighters.

As Jim stated, things are cyclical and boxing could come back around, but it will take a thrilling champion and a lot better marketing than what we see today.

[Leon]

I am not an autograph collector but to the point of the thread, I barely ever watch a boxing match but absolutely love the MMA. I watch it as much as my wife will let me...and I am almost 52. There is so much more action and blood....Those guys go out there and knock the crap out of each other. As for boxing, to me, it's boring compared to MMA.

Still, when I saw Ali signing a few years ago, he sent shivers down my back.

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I have tried VERY hard to watch UFC and other non-traditional fighting events and I just don't get it , bores me to death.

Have to agree. Real men don't kick. Can you imagine Jack Dempsey or Jake LaMotta in bare feet, kicking Jess Willard or Marcel Cerdan? It is a shame boxing has died off, but I'm not sure there are many boxers worth following anymore. It is a lost art.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Good question...MMA is killing boxing and now I'm hearing Dan Patrick shilling constantly for something called Bare Knuckles Boxing. I can't even tell you who the champions are in boxing anymore and my brother and I used to get every PPV. I believe there will always be interest in the big names like Ali, Marciano, Jeffries, but if there are fewer and fewer fans of boxing in the future it should stand to reason that the values of the autographs will go down.

Thanks to God...Let us pray that Travis our residential Boxing Boil, goes away with it.

[D. Bergin]

Still plenty of excellent lighter weight fights. Heavyweight division DOES have two dominant champs right now. They just happen to be non-American brothers who mostly fight in Europe now, and toiling in an era similar to Larry Holmes in the early 80's, with a lack of proper competition. At least in the Holmes era, most of the comp was North American based..........There's just no legit American contender out there right now.

I've tried MMA. It's primitive IMO. I find myself rooting for stand-up fights, and when it goes to the ground I get bored...........so I just go back to watching boxing. Most of the solid technique in MMA is limited to submissions and the ground game. Most of their stand-up technique is horrible, and because they don't really train for it, punch-resistance is almost non-existent.

As hated as he is, one only need to look at Floyd Mayweather to see if people still come out to watch fights if they feel they are compelling. Floyd and Manny Pac, (up until very recently), were compiling 20, 30, 40 million dollar paydays on a regular basis.

The upcoming Mayweather vs. Canelo Alvarez fight should do HUGE business.

The American game is a bit lacking right now. A lot of it has to do with the disintegrating amateur game and a big dip in quality of the Olympic program, which used to churn out star after star into the pro ranks.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Have to agree. Real men don't kick. Can you imagine Jack Dempsey or Jake LaMotta in bare feet, kicking Jess Willard or Marcel Cerdan? It is a shame boxing has died off, but I'm not sure there are many boxers worth following anymore. It is a lost art.

THAT is an excellent point ! Never really thought of it that way...But you are absolutely right ! Jack Dempsey kicking ? Jack Johnson kicking ? or even worse wrestling around on the floor with their face buried in some guy's backside.

Boxing is an art , if you know what you are watching its brilliant....Even when someone is not getting "creamed"...footwork, slipping punches, angles , jabs , the sweet science ! that's why its called "boxing" and not "kick arse".
_____________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

I BUY BASEBALL AUTOGRAPHS
stinsonsports.com

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Still plenty of excellent lighter weight fights.

The last boxing party I remember hosting was Corrales-Castillo back in 2005. That and a couple of the Gatti-Ward fights were some of the best watch parties I had.

As far as boxing goes though, I think they are doing an awful job of promoting the fights and grabbing headlines these days.

[travrosty]

mma isn't killing boxing, boxing declined on its own and its resurgence wont really depend on mma.

the flagship division, (heavyweights) is in the doldrums because all the fights are in europe and the klitschkos arent exciting to most.

i cant watch mma, its so boring. there is something about boxing that makes it exciting, you know the boxers cant just try to snap each others neck or bite an opponents ear off to win.

mma is more organized because it is a league owned by one person and he signs fighters to the ufc and each month they force the good matchups. not so with boxing. promoters sign boxers and dance around and a lot of the time they are more interested in their champions fighting in the "safe" fight for 5 million against lesser competition. they would rather do that 10 times in a row and reap 50 million than to fight another top guy for 20 million but have a chance to lose and then the big paydays are over.

Plus 4 sanctioning bodies issuing belts to ever increasing divisions only separated by 3 or 4 pounds now is not helping things. 4 champions at 18 different divisions.

so more boxing matches on tv more frequently with top fighters and a renewed heavyweight division would help.

mma doesnt really have anything to do with it. I don't know any of my friends that are big boxing fans who have scrapped boxing altogether to watch mma instead.

[travrosty]

boxing autographs will always hold their worth. there will be younger guys taking up the hobby, if prices fall too low, some will just see it as an opportunity to buy.

boxing is part of the history of the u.s. , it wont go away, and boxing collecting will ebb and tide, but don't throw away your robert fitzsimmons autographs just yet.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by travrosty

mma isn't killing boxing, boxing declined on its own and its resurgence wont really depend on mma.

mma doesnt really have anything to do with it. I don't know any of my friends that are big boxing fans who have scrapped boxing altogether to watch mma instead.

Yup. MMA hasn't stolen any of the boxing audience. If anything they've eaten into the WWE crowd who have grown out of that phase and are looking for something a bit more realistic, legitimate and competitive they can hang their hat on.

It's no coincidence that Dana White has patterned his business template to be more like the business and marketing monopoly of Vince McMahan and the WWE, and less like the competitive hagglings of King, Arum, Golden Boy, Kushner and others.

Dana leaves himself a much bigger piece of the pie, and not to be over-looked, a much smaller piece for his fighters then top boxers are used to, in comparison to the revenues being brought in.

[travrosty]

the top boxers and promoters like the current system, but fans don't. they want the top boxers matched up each month so they can watch a great card.

ufc has good matchups for what they do, and even the undercard has championship bouts and pretty good matchups. The fans want boxing to do the same, but unless it makes $ sense for the promoters to do it, they won't.

the ufc owns and issues their own championships and belts, so they can force whoever they want to fight each month. ufc makes the money for the pay per views, so if the belt switches hands, it is still within the ufc.

if a big belt switches hands from one boxing promoter's fighter to another boxing promoters fighter, a large chunk of $ switches too, then that promoter and fighter stand to lose money so the great matchups aren't always made.

If boxing were structured like the ufc, then mayweather and pacquiao would have fought a couple years ago and might have had a rematch or two already. There are several problems with the way boxing is set up but i wish the people in control would at least try to fix one of them at a time. The last heavyweight fight with a top name on regular free tv as far as i can remember was mike tyson versus buster mathis jr. on fox in 1995. time flies.

[toyman55]

The problem with boxing today is that it is run by the promoters and HBO and Showtime. It is all about the money and not about what the fans want. None of the controlling bodies agree or talk to one another and with that said they have all managed to kill boxing as it is today.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by travrosty

the top boxers and promoters like the current system, but fans don't. they want the top boxers matched up each month so they can watch a great card.

ufc has good matchups for what they do, and even the undercard has championship bouts and pretty good matchups. The fans want boxing to do the same, but unless it makes $ sense for the promoters to do it, they won't.

the ufc owns and issues their own championships and belts, so they can force whoever they want to fight each month. ufc makes the money for the pay per views, so if the belt switches hands, it is still within the ufc.

if a big belt switches hands from one boxing promoter's fighter to another boxing promoters fighter, a large chunk of $ switches too, then that promoter and fighter stand to lose money so the great matchups aren't always made.

If boxing were structured like the ufc, then mayweather and pacquiao would have fought a couple years ago and might have had a rematch or two already. There are several problems with the way boxing is set up but i wish the people in control would at least try to fix one of them at a time. The last heavyweight fight with a top name on regular free tv as far as i can remember was mike tyson versus buster mathis jr. on fox in 1995. time flies.

The only way for that to work would be for a monopoly to be established. Dana White essentially drove all other major organizations out of business. With King and Arum becoming elderly, Golden Boy is trying their damndest to do that right now.

I can't say I am rooting for them, to be honest.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

The only way for that to work would be for a monopoly to be established. Dana White essentially drove all other major organizations out of business. With King and Arum becoming elderly, Golden Boy is trying their damndest to do that right now.

I can't say I am rooting for them, to be honest.

true, ufc is a monopoly, strikeforce and the other group that was on tv are either a nonfactor or extinct now.

king has no champions left in his stable, tavoris cloud was the last one i believe and king has been on the ropes for awhile downsizing. if all the boxers were under one promoter, maybe more fights would materialize because it would be kept all in the family, but you have to trust the person running it to do it right. With boxings track record, i dont.

i dont know what the answer is i just want a few decent boxing matches now and then that generate interest and pits the two top guys together in a match with something on the line.

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

The only way for that to work would be for a monopoly to be established. Dana White essentially drove all other major organizations out of business. With King and Arum becoming elderly, Golden Boy is trying their damndest to do that right now.

I can't say I am rooting for them, to be honest.

Does anyone but me find it odd that , Bernard Hopkins knocked Oscar out with a body punch, and then amazingly after being counted out Oscar was strolling around the ring like he just got back from the candy store and doing an interview.

Any fighter will tell you that a body punch that renders you unable to beat a 10 count will hurt 10 times as bad AFTER the count.

But if that wasn't weird enough Oscar then signs Hopkins to a contract with "Goldenboy" promotions , coincidence ??

While we are on the subject of the demise of boxing lets not forget that they are STILL counting the money from the De La Hoya -Mayweather fight trying to figure out how much money they made in that the largest money making fight in history , The PPV revenue alone was over 150 million , Oscar was paid 52 Million and Floyd received 25 Million. Imagine how much they would have made if boxing was POPULAR .......
_______________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

I BUY BASEBALL AUTOGRAPHS
stinsonsports.com

[travrosty]

over 100,000 people in the stadium in mexico for a julio cesar chavez fight, is mma going to do that?


But the idea that ufc(mma) steals away boxing fans i dont think is factual. it's a global sport. mexico lots of interest. u.s will come back just in a different way than the golden age of television brought boxing to every neighborhood and there was 1 champ. Marciano was the champ. everybody knew it.