PWCC Certified High End

[CrackaJackKid]

Do they just label this on any card they want now? Seen there is a PSA 1 T213 with a certified high end designation. Lol Whatever it takes to sell right?
PSA 1 Certified High End = Oxymoron

[Peter_Spaeth]

Why not? A 1 can be high end for the grade just like any other grade, no?

[CrackaJackKid]

I guess however you wanna break it down so that it makes more sense.

If someone told me they had a high end example of a certain card, the last thing to come to my mind is a really nice looking 1 or 2 example.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think the whole HE thing is a gimmick across the board, just saying it's equally as valid or invalid at whatever grade you apply it IMO.

[bobbyw8469]

I've had 1's that look like 6's....I've cracked out 2's that came back 5's.......so why not??

[CrackaJackKid]

Agreed on the whole gimmick statement.

I’ve just never heard anyone else apply that terminology to that low of a grade.

[MattyC]

High End "1" is not an oxymoron to me; in fact when I hear someone has a high-end card, my first hope is that it is a 1 like the card below. I sure think one of these two cards below is high end for the grade.

My beef is with the likes of SGC and PSA, who can look at us collectors with a straight face and say these cards are in effect "the same." Insults our intelligence and only exposes their arbitrary, outmoded criteria.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by CrackaJackKid

I guess however you wanna break it down so that it makes more sense.

If someone told me they had a high end example of a certain card, the last thing to come to my mind is a really nice looking 1 or 2 example.

Low end technical grade can still be a higher end card...

[MattyC]

I'll call this "High End 1" Exhibit C for the thread.

[111gecko]

Wonder if it would help to add a (PH) pinhole and (PL) paper loss qualifier.? Then a regular card grade could be assigned.

[CrackaJackKid]

So decent/good looking cards graded 1s with a pinhole can now be assessed at the high end level for their grade. I guess I better get with the program. Lol

“High End” to me rypically refers to the most expensive example of all examples. But when you categorize by grades I guess anyone can call anything they want.

I just wouldnt feel right saying I had a high end example of a card when it’s recieved the lowest numerical grade. To each their own.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CrackaJackKid

So decent/good looking cards graded 1s with a pinhole can now be assessed at the high end level for their grade. I guess I better get with the program. Lol

“High End” to me rypically refers to the most expensive example of all examples. But when you categorize by grades I guess anyone can call anything they want.

I just wouldnt feel right saying I had a high end example of a card when it’s recieved the lowest numerical grade. To each their own.

He isn't saying it's a high end card. He is saying it's at the high end of a 1 grade.

[irv]

Whenever I see a "HE" designation, it means to me they think the TPG missed the grade by a mile.

1's are super tough as that is the lowest number you can go but like what has been shown here, the spread between some is huge.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by CrackaJackKid

So decent/good looking cards graded 1s with a pinhole can now be assessed at the high end level for their grade. I guess I better get with the program. Lol

“High End” to me rypically refers to the most expensive example of all examples. But when you categorize by grades I guess anyone can call anything they want.

I just wouldnt feel right saying I had a high end example of a card when it’s recieved the lowest numerical grade. To each their own.

Would you feel right saying you had a high end example of a card if the flip said 7 or 8 and it cost a ton, yet it had tilt or was OC or had a weak corner or a focus/registration issue? Because a card can certainly be the most expensive based on its flip and still exhibit those eye appeal flaws— which to those who stress the card over the pricetag, would not make it the highest end example.

Unless you think both of those Shoeless Joe Jackson CJs are equal cards in all respects, there certainly is a spectrum within each grade. Some call it the high and low ends. The market readily acknowledges that all 1s are not the same by the prices they command, and so collectors simply follow suit in terms of language.

[CrackaJackKid]

Referring to the JJs I would classify one as very rough and the other as a nice looking example but not high end.

[NYYFan63]

Originally Posted by CrackaJackKid

Do they just label this on any card they want now? Seen there is a PSA 1 T213 with a certified high end designation. Lol Whatever it takes to sell right?
PSA 1 Certified High End = Oxymoron

I had a Ryan RC that I swore was a 6, came back a 4. I called PSA and they said there was a slight indentation in the lower left corner that was not visible to the naked eye. I sent to PWCC and they labeled it HE as it had perfect centering. It ended up selling like a 5.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by CrackaJackKid

Referring to the JJs I would classify one as very rough and the other as a nice looking example but not high end.

That's certainly fair; it just seems a case of preferred language. The evolving jargon has become, "that's a high-end 3," for example. I have also heard a "strong 2," etc. All saying the same thing.

What PWCC has done is take the terminology that evolved among us all and monetize it— though I have some friends who would say weaponize, lol

[Leon]

Originally Posted by CrackaJackKid

Referring to the JJs I would classify one as very rough and the other as a nice looking example but not high end.

I think a large majority of collectors would disagree as to that 1 not being a high end 1. I have learned, over the course of time, that if I say the sky is up there will be some that disagree. It's America!!

[irv]

Originally Posted by MattyC

That's certainly fair; it just seems a case of preferred language. The evolving jargon has become, "that's a high-end 3," for example. I have also heard a "strong 2," etc. All saying the same thing.

What PWCC has done is take the terminology that evolved among us all and monetize it— though I have some friends who would say weaponize, lol

This^

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

That's certainly fair; it just seems a case of preferred language. The evolving jargon has become, "that's a high-end 3," for example. I have also heard a "strong 2," etc. All saying the same thing.

What PWCC has done is take the terminology that evolved among us all and monetize it— though I have some friends who would say weaponize, lol

It's stupid though. With a large scan anyone can see for himself whether the card is high end for the grade. Brent's say-so doesn't add anything.

[frankbmd]

In my laundry room HE stands for “high efficiency”.
In the morgue HE stands for “hepatic encephalopathy”.
In the chemistry lab HE stands for “helium”.

Therefore in the baseball card world, HE means

“The Card was soaked by a drunk seeking to elevate the grade of the card unsuccessfully.”

Q E D.

[barrysloate]

At every grade level there are cards that exhibit nice eye appeal, and others that look kind of crummy. So there is nothing wrong with stating that a card with great visuals is high end for the grade.

The problem is that so many dealers say that about too many cards. How often do you see the words "this should have gotten a higher grade" or "this looks better than a 3." So some discretion is needed.

[Rookiemonster]

Maybe we need grades within grades. Like a psa 1 that is borderline authentic grade. Need to be called a psa 1 - then go up from there psa 1+ psa 1 gem.
This might also bring a end to the grading a card above a mint 9. Just call it gem mint 9 .

[uniship]

I once submitted a PSA 8 Yaz rookie to PWCC. It was NICE. Coincidentally, they had another psa 8 yaz rookie in the same auction - and that one was labeled HE. Based on the scans and what I knew about mine in person, I thought mine was better, but whatever.

Anyway, in the end the bidders apparently thought mine was nicer too as my example (the "non HE" auction) sold for about $100 more than the HE example that ended around the exact same time.

[Frank A]

The other day I saw a card on ebay listed as a high grade Authentic. Had to be a joke right?

[Thecafewha]

I think of High End being the best examples of a given item. I suppose if you keep dividing a group up into enough pieces (ie different grades), then there are a lot of HE cards out there.

It’s similar to the term Holy Grail. People have adopted it to mean their personal piece they want, doesn’t have to be a true hobby Holy Grail.

I don’t think these terms really influence buyers but who knows.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tribefan]

"We at PWCC are not professional graders so we trust in the reputation and opinion of 3rd party professional graders. "

[pclpads]

It's called, "Salesmanship 101" - say whatever it takes to make a sale. Like a used car salesman claiming, "This little baby only has 200K carefully driven / one owner miles. Won't last!"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tribefan

"We at PWCC are not professional graders so we trust in the reputation and opinion of 3rd party professional graders. "

Yeah I've pointed that out before. Kinda makes the whole thing even more absurd, doesn't it.

[CrackaJackKid]

[QUOTE=Thecafewha;1763332]I think of High End being the best examples of a given item. I suppose if you keep dividing a group up into enough pieces (ie different grades), then there are a lot of HE cards out there.

Couldn’t agree more.

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

At every grade level there are cards that exhibit nice eye appeal, and others that look kind of crummy. So there is nothing wrong with stating that a card with great visuals is high end for the grade.

Well said.

[pokerplyr80]

[QUOTE=CrackaJackKid;1763524]

Originally Posted by Thecafewha

I think of High End being the best examples of a given item. I suppose if you keep dividing a group up into enough pieces (ie different grades), then there are a lot of HE cards out there.

Couldn’t agree more.

The certified high end designation means it's high end for the grade. Not one of the best copies in existence. Many collectors are interested in finding cards that look better than their technical grade, myself included.

[CrackaJackKid]

[QUOTE=pokerplyr80;1763589]

Originally Posted by CrackaJackKid

The certified high end designation means it's high end for the grade. Not one of the best copies in existence. Many collectors are interested in finding cards that look better than their technical grade, myself included.

I still feel labeling a 1 with a pinhole,paper loss etc. high end is inaccurate. But to each his own.

[Rich Falvo]

I think that if you are saying something is high end for the grade, you need to include the "for the grade" part. Simply saying something is High End with no other context implies that it is a top example overall.

[pokerplyr80]

[QUOTE=CrackaJackKid;1763596]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I still feel labeling a 1 with a pinhole,paper loss etc. high end is inaccurate. But to each his own.

A nice 1 with a small amount of paper loss on the back or a well hidden pin hole that doesn't take away from the eye appeal of the card is the definition of a high end 1. Such a card could easily sell for twice the price or more of the VCP average for the beater 1s.

[MattyC]

What's pretty interesting (while procrastinating at work, at least) is to examine the notion of what really constitutes "one of the best examples" in the world of a given card. I would offer that the reductive grading system belies the subjectivity in the matter...

For example, someone could brandish a high grade flip and say that based on pop report and cost it is one of the best— yet to many collectors with seasoned eyes, the card does not merit the grade. Would this hypothetical card then be one of the best and thus high end? I suppose to a Registry or flip-driven collector/buyer, sure, they could say it is and it would be valid. Yet others who want the best card might not even want to throw a bid at the card, so to them it is not one of the best.

Another interesting hypothetical would be someone pointing to a high grade card, say a PSA 8, deeming it one of the best examples of a card— yet let's assume it is a card that is rarely centered or always blurry, and the PSA 8 exhibits these usual flaws to the fullest extent the technical grade will allow.

Now let's say an anomalous PSA 5 or 6 comes along that is dead centered— with superior focus and color as compared to the 8 as well. Let's further postulate just for conversation's sake that this PSA 5/6 sells at auction for PSA 7+ money. Wouldn't this hypothetical 5/6 then be one of the best examples, even though several are graded higher, and certainly better than the hypothetical 8?

End of the day, what some grader at his cubicle is instructed to think and weigh most is simply not what the collector has to think and weigh most. For example, for some what constitutes best may factor in the value proposition; i.e., if there's a hypothetical freak 1.5 for $10,000 (think a tiny speck of paper loss or a microscopic pinhole) that presents identically to the eye as an 8.5 that costs $100,000, some collectors might say that the 1.5 is the best example around, in terms of providing eye appeal for the dollar.

Point being there is a lot of personal preference that goes into what is high end or "best," and we collectors certainly don't have to blindly agree with what a card grader says is best— much in the same way we don't have to have unanimity on such topics, despite our shared enthusiasm for cards themselves.

[pokerplyr80]

Well said Matt. I could never hope to match your eloquence but couldn't agree more with the post above. As a collector with expensive taste and a limited budget a 10k card with the eye appeal of a 100k card meets my definition of high end.

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=pokerplyr80;1763589]

Originally Posted by CrackaJackKid

The certified high end designation means it's high end for the grade. Not one of the best copies in existence. Many collectors are interested in finding cards that look better than their technical grade, myself included.

Agreed. But I don't need Brent to tell me when one does.

[Billy5858]

All I have to say is I bought the most beautiful T206 SL Shaunasy yeah it’s spelled wrong I’ll ever see in my life PSA 6 Brent HE.
Had to sell because of life. Paid a huge premium. But I’ll never see a better card than that one. In someone’s collection to never sell.
HE has its use

[toledo_mudhen]

It's rare to run across a truly "High End for Grade" example of any given card regardless of value. This, in my book, is one of those....