New T205 Website with Master Checklist

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Matt

Ron - one additional suggestion - maybe add a total row at the bottom so we can see how many cards are in each back-subset?
Keep up the good work!

Hi Matt, Good idea. I will work on that change tonight.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Wite3

Just for the record...I asked not to have my initials put on the board but Ron said other people wanted it. I prefer not to have them there.

Joshua

I can remove your initials if you would like. It only takes a minute to do. As you know, this site is a work in progress and its everyones site to use. Its not what makes me happy but what makes the users and contributors happy.

[T205Guy]

Ron,

Thanks! I am sure that the site will be a hit and I will be glad to add whatever I can to help out...

Ed

[Runscott]

There wasn't a good, comprehensive T205 site on the web. Ron wanted to get one going. I get it. The T205 crowd is notorious for hiding their cards. Hearing them speak out now is at least hearing them speak.

I did something similar with billiards history over ten years ago, at a time when I didn't really know all that much, and I requested experts to contribute. Some did, some were offended - offended that they knew more than me but didn't have the initiative to gather their information and create a usable site. But, even mute, they were still afraid I would make money off information that they weren't able to. I didn't...either did they. We're all still broke

Everyone (except that little girl) likes more money. Greed is part of what makes America....America. Perhaps Ron is simply someone who love T205's and has no plans to advertise on his site - there are sites out there with no advertising that provide plenty of reward for their creators (none of my sites make a dime). But if he tries to make money and gives contributors credit (or a cut), I don't see the problem. You create your own reputation through your actions, as we've seen with other card websites.

[edhans]

The T205 crowd is notorious for hiding their cards.

Really? The three "T205 guys" that come most readily to my mind (Matt & Turner, Josh and Andrew; OK 4 guys) have always been free with information and pictures on this site, at least. Who are you referring to?

[Runscott]

Ed, I'm not going to go there. It was a generalization which you are of course free to disagree with.

I do understand (from personal experience) any tendency to protect one's own intellectual capital - when you share your own research in good faith, (or don't share and it's pilfered) you can end up unpleasantly surprised as to how it's used. I admittedly am sitting on quite a bit of research that I would have shared ten years ago, but more recent experience has shown me the folly of such an attitude.

[edhans]

Scott,
No quarrel with your stance on your intellectual property. Just found it odd that you singled out T205 collectors as reticent, when the folks I mentioned have always been generous in sharing their knowledge.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by edhans

Scott,
No quarrel with your stance on your intellectual property. Just found it odd that you singled out T205 collectors as reticent, when the folks I mentioned have always been generous in sharing their knowledge.

I got that, and I'm still not going there (with names)

Edited to add - overall, the nuances, numbers, etc., of the t205 set have not been discussed in near as much detail as t206's (even relative to the popularity, collectibility of the two sets);i.e-overall, T206 collectors have been much more willing to share their set's secrets. This isn't a negative comment on any T205 collectors, it's simply what I've noticed. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong - it's still not meant to be demeaning of anyone so I don't see the problem with me stating this opinion.

[Big Six]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I got that, and I'm still not going there (with names)

Edited to add - overall, the nuances, numbers, etc., of the t205 set have not been discussed in near as much detail as t206's (even relative to the popularity, collectibility of the two sets);i.e-overall, T206 collectors have been much more willing to share their set's secrets. This isn't a negative comment on any T205 collectors, it's simply what I've noticed. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong - it's still not meant to be demeaning of anyone so I don't see the problem with me stating this opinion.

No need to apologize, Scott...I agree. T206 posts grossly outnumber t205 posts and check out the b/s/t...very few for sale. There's a fraction of the information on t205s versus what's out there for t206s...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Big Six

No need to apologize, Scott...I agree. T206 posts grossly outnumber t205 posts and check out the b/s/t...very few for sale. There's a fraction of the information on t205s versus what's out there for t206s...

Thanks. As an aside, I love T205s - just wish the set was larger and that there were action shots of the Major Leaguers.

Also, I've very much enjoyed conversing with T205 collectors on this board...via PM and email, which is fine. They've taught me a lot, and since I don't collect the set, I doubt I've gotten in their way much, and I know I've supplied a few of them with reasonably-priced T205s.

Edited to add: just noticed your avatar. That, along with the Cobb, are two on my short 'iconic tobacco card' list.

[Wite3]

t205 vs. t206 seems to be a silly argument...t206 is collected far more widely and has been researched much more in depth. Why? Because if 10% of collectors really like the research side, then the 1000s of t206 collectors will have 100s of researchers whereas the 100s of t205 collectors will only have 10ish researchers.

By looking at board sales, that is just because the print runs were so much smaller. I would LOVE to see more p-f-g condition t205s come up for sale (and drive the price down!). That would be fine by me.

Of course, when is the last time we had a good Goudey or Diamond Star discussion? Strange how things work on the board. I remember there used to be tons of Goudey talk and little on t205s...then a ton of E-card talk, etc. It just comes and goes.

I shared info. for people I spoke to often enough. But the last time I turned over my research as a whole (albeit incomplete) it ended up in a magazine and I am fairly certain that person was compensated for it. Now I take the opposite view. If I now put it out there in public...no one can exploit it for profit and if they can find a way to make money with it, more power to them. The main reason I held on to some of my research, specifically certain back or variation research was not for profit but because I was(am) not done with it. I want a master list. Badly. Yes, I had knowledge of the Wilhelm a few years before it became known (as with the Matty Cycle, Graham sig). I wanted to make sure I knew which backs came with each before I let the public know. People beat me to the outing on the Matty and Graham but because of that I was able to say with certainty that it was only the Cycle back for Matty and got a better understanding of the Graham sigs. I also have had to fix some of my research as well (in fact, I questioned one of the findings on Ron's list and he immediately sent me a nice back scan of a Wheat I had not confirmed before...that was awesome for me!).

I put years of work into my research. I feel that it is important to me. If others find it important, useful, or just plain bizarre, that is also fine by me. I did it because I honestly love t205s.

Scott is great and I have bought several T205s from him. I respect him and I have met a few collectors who have held their info close to the vest like Scott has mentioned. That is their option. I am thankful for board members who have helped me over the years...I hope it continues.

Joshua

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Wite3

t205 vs. t206 seems to be a silly argument...t206 is collected far more widely and has been researched much more in depth. Why? Because if 10% of collectors really like the research side, then the 1000s of t206 collectors will have 100s of researchers whereas the 100s of t205 collectors will only have 10ish researchers.

By looking at board sales, that is just because the print runs were so much smaller. I would LOVE to see more p-f-g condition t205s come up for sale (and drive the price down!). That would be fine by me.

Of course, when is the last time we had a good Goudey or Diamond Star discussion? Strange how things work on the board. I remember there used to be tons of Goudey talk and little on t205s...then a ton of E-card talk, etc. It just comes and goes.

I shared info. for people I spoke to often enough. But the last time I turned over my research as a whole (albeit incomplete) it ended up in a magazine and I am fairly certain that person was compensated for it. Now I take the opposite view. If I now put it out there in public...no one can exploit it for profit and if they can find a way to make money with it, more power to them. The main reason I held on to some of my research, specifically certain back or variation research was not for profit but because I was(am) not done with it. I want a master list. Badly. Yes, I had knowledge of the Wilhelm a few years before it became known (as with the Matty Cycle, Graham sig). I wanted to make sure I knew which backs came with each before I let the public know. People beat me to the outing on the Matty and Graham but because of that I was able to say with certainty that it was only the Cycle back for Matty and got a better understanding of the Graham sigs. I also have had to fix some of my research as well (in fact, I questioned one of the findings on Ron's list and he immediately sent me a nice back scan of a Wheat I had not confirmed before...that was awesome for me!).

I put years of work into my research. I feel that it is important to me. If others find it important, useful, or just plain bizarre, that is also fine by me. I did it because I honestly love t205s.

Scott is great and I have bought several T205s from him. I respect him and I have met a few collectors who have held their info close to the vest like Scott has mentioned. That is their option. I am thankful for board members who have helped me over the years...I hope it continues.

Joshua

Joshua, very well stated (especially, "Scott is great") - I think most of us empathize and are in agreement with you (except for the part I quoted ).

You know me - I will stir the pot, but I am trying harder not to tump it over.

I can only echo what josh said. My largest issue was the lack of reaserch set forth and then wanting us to fill it in. That's not really the issue now that we have heard what this site is acctualy about. I will say I am willing to provide scans of my collection and knowledge to help out in this site. Ron if you would pm me your email I will get you many AB, pied 42, and cycle scans I have. If I have confirmed backs for your list they will be included also.

I know if I asked any of the 205 guys for their list to do a site it would have been a no brainier since we are working towards the same goal. It just made me very weary and hesitant to have a very new collector jump out here asking for this info without knowing the details about what it all is gonna be used for. I do hope you guys understand. It takes a lot of time and research to have the info we have. I am Hal we can now place it in a hobby useful place. Thank you Ron for the site and best wishes on it being completed.

[Matt E.]

First off Ed Hans is one of the very good guys in the hobby.

Honestly, I don't know if I have any information to contribute regarding T205 backs. I guess I could pull out the set and write down each back front combo. I have enjoyed learning the current findings spreadsheet, but it won't really change my buying habits.

I am more of a front guy and want to concentrate on the SGC Registry. I have had my share of blank backs - raw and graded, Hindu's and Drums etc... It was cool to own them for awhile but it never really got me going.

I like to think I am smart enough to pick out a Piedmont 42 from a stack of raw cards and buy it. However I prefer to concentrate on the variations, short prints and the hard to find cards.

Feel free to reference my website to see how I categorize T205's.

http://www.imageevent.com/babybingbaseball

When you are on the T205 page be sure to click at the top and look for these:

"Short Prints"
"Minor Leaguers"
"Variations"
"Tough to Find"

[Runscott]

Matt, I don't think anyone mentioned in this thread (or participating in it) is a "bad guy".

We're all 'good' - just having fun collecting and discussing cardboard - expressing opinions, which along with $1.45 will buy you a cup of coffee.

[Matt E.]

I don't drink coffee

[peterb69]

Josh, thanks for sharing your information. I also am a for most T205 collector although I collect all tobacco cards. I have been making a run at the T205 Herzog backs and for awhile I was stuck at just 10 different backs. With this new info, it appears I have all that there is. So I'll now have to pick another player and try to get a back run.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Matt E.

I don't drink coffee

It's okay - I drink enough for all of us.

[cdn_collector]

Three things...

1. Matt, that is a freaking incredible T205 set you have there. I think your gallery alone will inspire more people to attempt this set.

2. Ron, I don't own it, but I can confirm that George Gibson exists with the Honest Long Cut back.

3. I believe Montreal and Toronto are the only two Eastern League teams not included in the T205 minor league subset. For those of you that know T205s well, I would be curious in hear some theories as to why.


Regards,

Richard.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by cdn_collector

Three things...

1. Matt, that is a freaking incredible T205 set you have there. I think your gallery alone will inspire more people to attempt this set.

2. Ron, I don't own it, but I can confirm that George Gibson exists with the Honest Long Cut back.

3. I believe Montreal and Toronto are the only two Eastern League teams not included in the T205 minor league subset. For those of you that know T205s well, I would be curious in hear some theories as to why.


Regards,

Richard.

If I may hazard a guess, and I am by no means a T205 expert, I have about 10-15 of them and really only like the minor league cards. My guess would be that the set was never completed, just basing that on the fact it says "400 designs" on the back, so it is entirely possible they planned to make more and include the teams from America's hat in the next series.

Originally Posted by z28jd

If I may hazard a guess, and I am by no means a T205 expert, I have about 10-15 of them and really only like the minor league cards. My guess would be that the set was never completed, just basing that on the fact it says "400 designs" on the back, so it is entirely possible they planned to make more and include the teams from America's hat in the next series.

Call me crazy but I am theorizing that the t205 set was complete and adding in the other 2 gold boarder set from that era and owned by the same companies equals near 400 subjects. I posted this in a thread of Ted Z a while back when discussing the set. The numbers are to close to ignore and I don't think there was anything cut short on printing them.

[MMarvelli]

Ron

Scanner inoperable but of the 18 I have, the following cards weren't in the Master Checklist as of yet:

Downey - Drum
Hoblitzell (Cin after 2nd in 1908) - Hassan 30
Willett - AB green



MarkM

[frohme]

Originally Posted by cdn_collector

Three things...

1. Matt, that is a freaking incredible T205 set you have there. I think your gallery alone will inspire more people to attempt this set.

2. Ron, I don't own it, but I can confirm that George Gibson exists with the Honest Long Cut back.

3. I believe Montreal and Toronto are the only two Eastern League teams not included in the T205 minor league subset. For those of you that know T205s well, I would be curious in hear some theories as to why.

Regards,

Richard.

Richard beat me to it, but *he's* the Gibson guy - I was merely a temporary caretaker of some of his cards .. .. Hi Richard!

here's an image - I've seen at least two different ones.



--
Mike

[Ronnie73]

Thank you everyone with the checklist updates. I have made the changes and added names to the Credits page. Currently I'm working on the Gallery Master List. Its taking some time to do but will be well worth it. After I complete it, eveyone will see what cards I still need scans for. I will update everyone when thats complete. Thanks again for everyones support.

Ron

[toppcat]

I'm glad to see Joshua is going to add to this site-there are some incredible hobby resources going up on the web of late.

[cdn_collector]

Originally Posted by frohme

...here's an image - I've seen at least two different ones.

I knew that would bring you out of hiding for a bit...thanks for posting the scan. Hope all is well!

Regards,

Richard.

[peterb69]

Here are 2 more that are not on your checklist.
Orval Overall Honest
Fred Olmstead Hassan Fact 30

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Hi everyone, Lately there seems to be an increase in T205 questions and posts. Some time ago, I had decided to start a new T205 website but had gotten busy on some other projects. So I decided to make the website live today. Since its new, there are many unfinished areas but wanted to get going with the Master Checklist and work on it from there. I welcome everyone to contribute to the growth of this website and share their knowledge of this popular set.

Thanks,
Ron Kornacki
http://www.t205resource.com

Ron, don't know how I missed this before, but thanks for mentioning me on your website.

As far as any concerns anyone has over advertising, banners, $$$, etc. - just die broke in a cave, and at least you will be remembered fondly.

[nebboy]

I was doing a lot of research on Sov and Peid 42s and tried to share the info as I found it. Had to take a break but hope take up the search again and will post for the new site all I can. Good job and keep the info flowing!

[Ronnie73]

Thank you Ed (T205Guy) and Peter (peterb69) for your additions to the checklist. Ed, two of the Drum cards you verified were already checked off so thats the reason for only 5 cards next to your name. Credit is given in the order that the cards are verified. Remember everyone, weather its one card or many, its still important to the growth of the website and appreciate all the support.

Scott, I enjoy your website, especially the postcard and cabinet photos and it made me want to contribute to the research of the hobby and thats why I started T205Resource.com. I also have plans to do a T212 website but decided to get the T205 site near complete first before starting the T212 Obak site.

Again, Thank you everyone for all the support and hopefully i'm not boring anyone with near daily updates while the sites checklist is growing each day.

Ron
T205Resource.com

[HercDriver]

Joshua --

Do you own these two cards? Or have a scan of them? I don't believe they exist and the number is actually 123, but I'm very happy to be corrected!

Take Care,
Geno

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by HercDriver

Joshua --

Do you own these two cards? Or have a scan of them? I don't believe they exist and the number is actually 123, but I'm very happy to be corrected!

Take Care,
Geno

Hi Geno, I can tell you that I don't have scans of either of these cards yet and did notice my 125 count compared to your 123 but added them for now and see if a scan would show up since I knew what 2 to search for. As I fill in the Gallery of all the back scans, we will see what cards might be questionable but I would say nearly 100 percent of the checklist is accurate with maybe just a few questionables.

I do have a scan of the Hummel that was questioned a few months back and can confrim the Willet but just waiting on a scan.

Ron

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

Scott, I enjoy your website, especially the postcard and cabinet photos and it made me want to contribute to the research of the hobby and thats why I started T205Resource.com. I also have plans to do a T212 website but decided to get the T205 site near complete first before starting the T212 Obak site.

Ron
T205Resource.com

Well, seeing your website, and your above post, has inspired me to get after the cabinet and postcard sections - pre-wwi photos are really my passion, as they bring to life the era when the cards you mention were actually being pulled out of cigarette packs. It's also the reason I collect signed letters written by the T206 guys.

You (and others who are posting in this thread) are also kind of inspiring me to revive my T205 collection - I only have 6, but they are good ones

[Wite3]

Geno,
I will have to check...probably do not have scans but may actually own the cards. Will let you know.

Joshua

[sb1]

I can add Broadleaf Green -- Austin and A. Latham on back.

Scott

I noticed there was the Matty cycle var listed but not the PB White partial quotes and no quotes, Collins mouth closed yellow elephant, graham signature variation blue and black (blue sig pied 25 only- black sig not found on pied 25), Miller B, D, or D over B print. Any reason those aren't listed? I don't think we need SCD, PSA, or SGC to tell us guys what is and isn't a variation. There are 2 more I am working on. The HLC backed Latham had a period before the A and I believe was intended to be a WA variation. The other is a new find and currently a work in progress.

[peterb69]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

I noticed there was the Matty cycle var listed but not the PB White partial quotes and no quotes, Collins mouth closed yellow elephant, graham signature variation blue and black (blue sig pied 25 only- black sig not found on pied 25), Miller B, D, or D over B print. Any reason those aren't listed? I don't think we need SCD, PSA, or SGC to tell us guys what is and isn't a variation. There are 2 more I am working on. The HLC backed Latham had a period before the A and I believe was intended to be a WA variation. The other is a new find and currently a work in progress.

Andrew, I actually started another thread just about this topic as I agree with you they should be listed. I assume that thread would become a big debate just like the others, so I didn't want to hijack this thread.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=158953

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

I noticed there was the Matty cycle var listed but not the PB White partial quotes and no quotes, Collins mouth closed yellow elephant, graham signature variation blue and black (blue sig pied 25 only- black sig not found on pied 25), Miller B, D, or D over B print. Any reason those aren't listed? I don't think we need SCD, PSA, or SGC to tell us guys what is and isn't a variation. There are 2 more I am working on. The HLC backed Latham had a period before the A and I believe was intended to be a WA variation. The other is a new find and currently a work in progress.

I did think about listing many of those variations but at what point is a variation not worth adding to the list. I don't know if they should be added to the Master List or maybe a Master List Extention. I was just worried that I would be getting scans of cards with 5 different shades of red and expect to list them all as different variations. I am open to any suggestions anyone might have since its everyones site to use.

Ron you listed the Matty cycle 1 loss variation. It's only missing a number. No different than any other variation.

[Tcards-Please]

I do agree with Andrew that if you are going to identify variations separately on the master list, then you would need to have all of them. If you would list the Christy Mathewson once with all confirmed backs, then you would capture the 1 loss. Same thing with Wilhelm, you will capture both variations by listing all confirmed backs as both variations are found separately on one specific back (i.e. both variations aren't found on HASSAN backs). I would think at some point that if you list all possible front/back combinations, that you would capture most (not ALL) variations.

I do agree that it probably would be beneficial to add a separate section that does include the variations that are found on the same back as the corrected version, for instance for those collectors that aren't aware that the Moran Polar Bear back has both the correct back and the stray line of text.

I do think that for the most part, this would be a good site and would only help the collecting community. I also know that some of us will not disclose everything that we know (as Andrew acknowledged) either because of further research or due to not having to compete with other collectors to obtain certain cards. I'm not picking on Andrew as there are other board members that aren't going to give up everything they know, but he was the one who was honest enough to say so.

Great job Ron and I'm glad that someone took the initiative to create a site that I believe will only help promote and provide information on one of the best T sets out there.

r/
Frank

[Leon]

So far so good Ron et al.....

I don't have much in the way of T205 but will gladly share scans if they are needed. I probably have 1-2 that could be used.

Ron- my scanner does size percentage ie 100%, 125% etc...and dpi amount ie 96dpi, 200dpi, 300 dpi etc.......what do you prefer? You can see my meager T205s at luckeycards.com 3rd section down and in ACC numerical order. Let me know if there is anything you can use....and if you can just right click and copy them, that would be great too......best regards

[jimivintage]

Someone is selling a Broadleaf Lewis Richie on eBay right now. You can check the picture out in his listing. Sorry, but I'm having troubles with pics right now.

I will be posting my collection tomorrow. Use what you want for the list.

[Wihawk]

Thanks Ron for the site. I just started collecting a team set of Superbas(still need Dahlen, Daubert and Wilhelm r or no r doesn't interest me), so this site came at a very nice time in my BB card collecting journey.

[rsst206]

Hi Ron was going over my set. You can add this Fred Merkle
Best regards
Ron

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

I will be posting my collection tomorrow. Use what you want for the list.

Thank you Andrew, I look forward to it. Thank you everyone else also. I will be updating the checklist Sunday night.

Ron

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Ron,

Love the thought of the site and hope all goes well. I know it's in it's primitive stages, but maybe you can have a list for the toughest backs in order and possibly a list of th toughest known combinations of front and backs.

Keep up the good work!

Downey and phelps is listed as having both BL backs. Downey is an olive and phelps a black back. It is not possible for them to exist with both backs.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Downey and phelps is listed as having both BL backs. Downey is an olive and phelps a black back. It is not possible for them to exist with both backs.

Thank you Andrew, This is one of the topics that will be in tonights update because the scans are hard to tell sometimes between the black and olive green. I've corrected these two and it will show in tonights update. Thanks again,

Ron

[Ronnie73]

We are a week into this new website and everyone has been a lot of help. A special thank you to Andrew W. (Pup6913) for sharing his checklist with everyone. Also, to all the other Net54baseball.com members, thank you for spending the time to view the list and seeing if there's anything missing. A few changes have been made to the checklist. Variations have been added and some corrections need to be made on the following. Broadleaf backs are either a black or olive green color but not both for the same card. Because the olive green looks sometimes black on a scan, I could use some help correcting which of the two colors they might be. One other card that needs more research is the John Miller card. Without really clear large scans, its hard to identify which of the variations should be checked off. At the moment, question marks are being used until more verification happens. If you know of a variation that should be added to the list, please email me the information, Thanks.

Ron
T205Resource.com