American Greed-CNBC

[oldjudge]

Rob-You better not let her see you posting about her. She's a lot tougher than you are.😀

[Robert_Lifson]

She's still trying on shoes and talking with the owner! She has no idea. Mums the word.

[Robert_Lifson]

I may start having my mail forwarded here.

[oldjudge]

Rob-This isn't the place you are at, is it?

[Robert_Lifson]

Can't afford that place! She's done so I'm off to next store now...

[Sean]

Originally Posted by hshrimps

Thx Rob.

By any chance, anyone has pics of that rebacked Plank? That card seems to disappear from the hobby since it last sold from Mastro. Just wonder how good was the reback job.

It's listed in the Plank gallery on T206resource.com. It is Plank number 17.

[Pat R]

Here's the Plank that Rob is referring to. I couldn't find any large scans
and they get distorted when you enlarge them so this is the best I could
do.
Plank SC350.jpgPlank SC350 Back.jpg
Plank SC350 Copy.jpgPlank SC350 Back Copy.jpg

[hshrimps]

It has curved edges... well... it could just be the scans.

[hshrimps]

Anyways, given it was sold at $51k. Even if it gets consign to auction now and listed as re-backed it would still sold for higher than $51k in today's market.

[Misunderestimated]

Given the demands/constraints of television I thought it a good show. Would I have liked a more thorough version -- of course. I suspect everyone on who reads this post would have liked a longer, polished, "30-for-30" style version with more names and details and less cliches.

That said I want to thank the people who "made this possible" on the hobby-end.* The most obvious people to thank are Ryan and Jeff and they deserve major kudos. But I'm sure that there are many whose names did not make it into the "final cut" and/or may have no any interest in being publicly known as part of this. They deserve my (our) thanks too. Doing the right thing is its own reward and -- all too often -- its only reward.





___
* Good people with the FBI,US Attorney's Office and the media are also to be commended for their work.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Robert_Lifson

I was very surprised to find extra Mastro Auction episode video clips on the American Greed website. These were listed as "web exclusive" videos on the official CNBC American Greed website and obviously represent footage that could have easily made it onto the show but just couldn't make the final cut due to editing and time constraints. There is great commentary and very interesting stories presented by FBI SA Brian Brusokas and former federal prosecutor Steven Grimes in these clips and I thought anyone not aware of them (which I assume is most as I just happened to trip over them by chance and don't recall anyone mentioning) might really like to see them too.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/2...ke-a-buck.html

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/2...nce-faked.html

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/08/2...ally-stop.html

Reads these vids are not available in your area. My area is Canada and that is likely the reason?
Any other CDN's have this issue, and if so, were you able to view them via a different avenue?

[Robert_Lifson]

I don't know if this solves the problem but I see the extra footage is also posted on YouTube now. I hope this helps! Here are the links:


https://youtu.be/2QeAzcdNRLc

https://youtu.be/niopU2C43ys

https://youtu.be/5XbgTccK_6o

Many may find very interesting to read a copy of Mastro Auctions' mass email first announcing the "Mastro Auctions Code of Professional Conduct."

A cut-and-paste appears below!
*

From: email@mastroauctions.com
To:
Sent: 9/13/2007 8:33:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time
Subj: Mastro Auctions Code of Professional Conduct

Dear Valued Customer:

When it comes to business ethics and integrity, Mastro Auctions has operated ever since its inception under the premise that actions speak louder than words. We thought, perhaps naively, that that was enough. I have talked to a lot of customers over the last few months, both at the National Convention and through my travels, and have come to the conclusion that our customers, in fact, expect more.

As the hobby continues to evolve and new concerns plague our industry, the time to assume a proactive stance has arrived. To that end, Mastro Auctions is taking our unwritten code of professional conduct to the next level by enhancing the code and memorializing it in writing (see below). This act of leadership is not required by law or by the industry, but it represents the high standards of commitment and responsibility that Mastro Auctions has always embodied.


Since we just missed our deadline for the October Classic sale to make this announcement, this code will appear in and be in full effect for our December Premium Catalog sale. As always, we greatly value your support and assistance. By working proactively as a team, we can make a difference in the hobby we all enjoy today -- and ensure that it is headed in the right direction for future enthusiasts.

Sincerely yours,


Doug Allen


President & COO

Mastro Auctions

Mastro Auctions Code of Professional Conduct

1. Disclosure of Ownership
Mastro Auctions allows employees, authenticators, the Mastro Auctions corporate entity and other third party affiliates to own and consign items in Mastro Auctions’ sales. Mastro Auctions will disclose in its catalogs which items are owned by any of the aforementioned parties. PLEASE NOTE: The definition of ownership extends to spouses and immediate family members associated with the aforementioned groups.

2. Mastro Auctions Employee Bidding Rules
Certain Mastro Auctions employees are also collectors, and, similar to the practices followed by other major auction houses (e.g. Sotheby’s, Christies, etc.) are permitted to bid in Mastro Auctions sales. The following restrictions have been placed on the bidding practices of employee(s) to ensure fairness for all auction participants:

*Mastro Auctions employees do not have access to ceiling or “top-all” bids. One designated administrative employee will have access to this information for the sole purpose of responding to bidding questions or for correcting bid errors. That designated individual will not be allowed to bid in the auction.*

Mastro Auctions employees, the Mastro Auctions corporate entity, and all third party affiliates (authenticators, service providers, etc.) are considered related parties. These related parties are prohibited from bidding on each other’s consigned items. PLEASE NOTE: The definition of the Mastro Auctions “related parties” extends to family members. 



3. Disclosure of Restoration
If Mastro Auctions believes or has knowledge that an item has been altered in any way, this information will be fully disclosed in the auction catalog. Occasionally, we will have items restored in order to improve their presentation quality. In these cases, the extent and nature of any restoration will be fully disclosed. Under no circumstances will we have restoration work done on trading cards.

4. Trading Card Guidelines
Mastro Auctions prohibits its employees from altering trading cards. Our policy on altering trading cards is in strict compliance with standards set by all major grading companies.

5. Use of Third Party Authenticators
Mastro Auctions is a company of experts. In almost all of the collecting genres handled by the company, there is an employee on staff who specializes in that area. As a result, before an item ever reaches a third party authenticator, it must first pass our scrutiny. Once an item that requires third party authentication has been accepted by Mastro Auctions, the following process will be employed: for each auction, the catalog will identify approved third party authenticating sources by category. We will not sell an item unless it has been authenticated by one of the listed third party authenticators. **

6. Bidding Records
Effective for auctions held in 2007, all Mastro Auctions bidding records are maintained into perpetuity. These records are considered private and confidential. In order to maintain the privacy of our customers’ information, these records will not be voluntarily shared with any third parties.

This e-mail was sent from an information only e-mail address and cannot receive incoming messages. Please send e-mail to CustomerService@mastroauctions.com.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Indeed.

If Mastro Auctions believes or has knowledge that an item has been altered in any way, this information will be fully disclosed in the auction catalog. Occasionally, we will have items restored in order to improve their presentation quality. In these cases, the extent and nature of any restoration will be fully disclosed. Under no circumstances will we have restoration work done on trading cards.

[hshrimps]

Wasn't Mastro Auction tried to be become a public company at one time??? Mastro and his team would have been in much longer jail time. They were "lucky" they didn't make it to a public company..

[h2oya311]

Just watched last night. Big kudos to Ryan and Jeff. Would have liked to have heard more about the actual investigation and whether there was any restitution for those who were defrauded. I don't know enough about the details of the sentencing. I seem to recall that Mastro ratted out Allen to get a reduced sentence.

[Kenny Cole]

There was no restitution that I am aware of.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Robert_Lifson

I don't know if this solves the problem but I see the extra footage is also posted on YouTube now. I hope this helps! Here are the links:


https://youtu.be/2QeAzcdNRLc

https://youtu.be/niopU2C43ys

https://youtu.be/5XbgTccK_6o

Those worked.

Thank you, Robert.

[Klrdds]

Originally Posted by hshrimps

Wasn't Mastro Auction tried to be become a public company at one time??? Mastro and his team would have been in much longer jail time. They were "lucky" they didn't make it to a public company..

Yes that is true. Sometime in the late 1990s to early to mid 2000's ( I can't remember exactly ) Mastro announced in a special mailing to preferred customers that they were going public in the essence of selling shares in their company but it was never going to be a publicly "listed" company . The share purchase option and contract was offered by invitation only to"substantial clients " who spent a minimum amount of money in their auctions or to substantial consignors to their auctions. It was an "Exclusive Offering to preferred clients". The shares were going to be for the company in a private manner to allow Mastro to become bigger and actually purchase items to auction. As I recall shares were at least $1000 each and a minimum number of share purchases were required to begin and no dividends were paid and your shares had no voting rights and no reinvestment option and had a minimum hold period , that is they could not be bought or sold openly at any time , only when Mastro would offer a buy back or a purchase announcement .
Looking back I wonder if he was going to ponzi those investors, but the idea never gained momentum because the investor had all the risk but very little upside except to what Mastro would allow as far as appreciation of your shares and of course the initial purchase price.
If someone else remembers more about this or more correctly then please feel free to correct me.

[ElCabron]

Bill Mastro had to pay a fine. No restitution. It would have been a logistical nightmare to try to figure out actual losses and come up with an amount to be paid. But I'm sure now that he is out of prison and has had a spiritual awakening, he is working hard crunching the numbers to figure out how much he stole so he can pay it back and make things right. Look for your checks as soon as GAI opens on Monday.

-Ryan

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

Bill Mastro had to pay a fine. No restitution. It would have been a logistical nightmare to try to figure out actual losses and come up with an amount to be paid. But I'm sure now that he is out of prison and has had a spiritual awakening, he is working hard crunching the numbers to figure out how much he stole so he can pay it back and make things right. Look for your checks as soon as GAI opens on Monday.

-Ryan

After watching the American Greed episode a second time, one thing that jumped out at me was the repeated statement that Mastro Auctions made over $200,000,000.00 in gross sales and then later filed for bankruptcy in 2009 when the Feds started breathing down their necks and making them record all auction bids thus causing the sales to plummet. If they were taking 15% buyers and 15% sellers fees, plus making profits on re-sold items, ie the Evers Lot and other items owned by Mastro, then Mastro Auctions was netting at least $60,000,000 over that duration. Obviously there was some overhead, taxes and employees salaries, but clearly a substantial portion must of gone into Bill Mastro's and Doug Allen's pockets.

Was there any financial accountability of those two during the investigation, trial or sentencing for seizing assets or were they found to be conveniently broke? As Ryan Christoff wisely noted in the closing of the program, the punishment didn't appear to fit the crime.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

After watching the American Greed episode a second time, one thing that jumped out at me was the repeated statement that Mastro Auctions made over $200,000,000.00 in gross sales and then later filed for bankruptcy in 2009 when the Feds started breathing down their necks and making them record all auction bids thus causing the sales to plummet. If they were taking 15% buyers and 15% sellers fees, plus making profits on re-sold items, ie the Evers Lot and other items owned by Mastro, then Mastro Auctions was netting at least $60,000,000 over that duration. Obviously there was some overhead, taxes and employees salaries, but clearly a substantial portion must of gone into Bill Mastro's and Doug Allen's pockets.

Was there any financial accountability of those two during the investigation, trial or sentencing for seizing assets or were they found to be conveniently broke? As Ryan Christoff wisely noted in the closing of the program, the punishment didn't appear to fit the crime.

Most hobby criminals go scot free, so I think credit should be given even if the sentence was less than some would have liked to see.

[Jenx34]

I wondered the same thing about how in the world they went bankrupt. Unfortunately, what most people and many companies do, is as more $$ come in, they spend more and more, often in stupid ways.

To your last question, the company could easily have "gone bankrupt" while the people that ran it got rich. That's the protection of incorporating. If the business goes bad, you aren't personally liable. So they may have paid themselves into bankruptcy, whether intentional or not, only they would know.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Jenx34

I wondered the same thing about how in the world they went bankrupt. Unfortunately, what most people and many companies do, is as more $$ come in, they spend more and more, often in stupid ways.

To your last question, the company could easily have "gone bankrupt" while the people that ran it got rich. That's the protection of incorporating. If the business goes bad, you aren't personally liable. So they may have paid themselves into bankruptcy, whether intentional or not, only they would know.

I agree with your assessment that people can either squander their profits, overpay themselves (and sometimes hide the money from creditors), or make just bad business decisions and drive the corporation into bankruptcy. Mastro Auctions had very little downside to their business, so I see it as the first two options. Also, when fraud occurs courts can "pierce the corporate veil" and go after individuals or "alter egos" (individuals who use a business identities designed for perpetrating fraud). I'm actually surprised nobody has sued Mastro or Allen after all of this - or have they?

[Robert_Lifson]

They actually have been sued and with some degree of success. I know of two civil lawsuits filed against Mastro Auctions since they ceased operating (though there may be others). Both lawsuits were also filed against Bill Mastro and Doug Allen personally. Both lawsuits were settled to the satisfaction of the parties claiming to have been damaged by Mastro Auctions.

One lawsuit was filed in February 2014 by Dr. Howard Rosing (a very longtime advanced collector and true gentleman).

Below is a link to an article about the Howard Rosing vs Mastro et al lawsuit. The lawsuit was settled very quickly. Because a confidentiality agreement was signed, Dr. Rosing was not at liberty to tell me the details of the settlement, only that it occurred, and that he was very pleased.

The complaint involved four single-signed baseballs that Rosing purchased from Mastro Auctions between 1998 and 2001 for a total of $134,000. According to the complaint, "Rosing has since learned that the four baseballs are in fact counterfeit" and his $130,000+ in damages were "caused by Defendants' fraud and/or negligence." The four single-signed balls were: Mickey Welch ($20,217), Jack Chesbro ($20,898), Frank Chance ($21,836),and Henry Chadwick ($61,251). Extremely interesting note that is not mentioned in the following article or the text of the Rosing complaint: the Henry Chadwick single-signed ball was consigned by Peter Nash. And the Mickey Welch single-signed ball also originated from (that is, was previously sold at auction two years earlier by)....Peter Nash.

Article Link:

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ned-baseballs/

In June 2009 when Mastro Auctions sued Dave Forman for $400,000, Dave Foreman countersued for damages relating to various issues including shill bidding. The countersuit prepared by Dave Forman's brilliant attorney in the case (Jeffrey Lichtman) was extremely detailed and devastating. Instead of collecting $400,000 FROM Forman (who did not dispute having an unpaid auction balance, but did dispute the exact amount), Mastro Auctions not only dropped and completely abandoned their entire claim against Forman (lowering the $400,000 to $0) but also returned over $100,000 in cards to Forman that he believed were owed to him, and, in addition, Forman actually received a payment of $3600 in the settlement. (Hard not to say "wow" to that complete turnaround).

Links:

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com/a-fine-mess/

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...ticle-1.428887

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/mo...e_desktop=true


https://www.google.com/amp/www.nydai...ticle-1.121333

[ullmandds]

does anyone know if and when this will air again...hopefully this week. I have access to cable this week!!!!!

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

does anyone know if and when this will air again...hopefully this week. I have access to cable this week!!!!!

It's on demand if you look it up

[mantlefan]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

After watching the American Greed episode a second time, one thing that jumped out at me was the repeated statement that Mastro Auctions made over $200,000,000.00 in gross sales and then later filed for bankruptcy in 2009 when the Feds started breathing down their necks and making them record all auction bids thus causing the sales to plummet. If they were taking 15% buyers and 15% sellers fees, plus making profits on re-sold items, ie the Evers Lot and other items owned by Mastro, then Mastro Auctions was netting at least $60,000,000 over that duration. Obviously there was some overhead, taxes and employees salaries, but clearly a substantial portion must of gone into Bill Mastro's and Doug Allen's pockets.

Was there any financial accountability of those two during the investigation, trial or sentencing for seizing assets or were they found to be conveniently broke? As Ryan Christoff wisely noted in the closing of the program, the punishment didn't appear to fit the crime.

Dan, you would be astounded to learn how much exacto knives, hair dryers, power erasers, bleach and Toluene cost these days. It really adds up!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Frank, funny, but my guess is most of the work was done by outside contractors.

[mantlefan]

Peter, do you think Dick Towle was a sub-contractor?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by mantlefan

Peter, do you think Dick Towle was a sub-contractor?

I recall at one point Graphic Restorations in Chicago was doing work for them although I don't know the scope, for all I know it could have been legit and disclosed work. From the indictment I recall Doug sent the Plank to California to be rebacked, I can guess who did that but not sure. I have no idea who else they might have used, there are a number of possibilities.

[calvindog]

Doug's plea agreement, Mastro indictment and shill bidder list. Some funny stuff here. Getting mentioned in all three is an achievement only those on the Mt. Rushmore of hobby degenerates can claim.


http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/publ...astro-Case.pdf

https://www.justice.gov/archive/usao...pr0725_01a.pdf

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/wp-cont...l-bid-list.pdf

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

does anyone know if and when this will air again...hopefully this week. I have access to cable this week!!!!!

Pete, It will be on tomorrow morning (Monday 9-4) from 9:00-10:00 AM Eastern time on CNBC.

[irv]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Doug's plea agreement, Mastro indictment and shill bidder list. Some funny stuff here. Getting mentioned in all three is an achievement only those on the Mt. Rushmore of hobby degenerates can claim.



http://haulsofshame.com/blog/wp-cont...l-bid-list.pdf

That's quite the list!

Thanks for posting these up, Jeff.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Pat R

Pete, It will be on tomorrow morning (Monday 9-4) from 9:00-10:00 AM Eastern time on CNBC.

Thank you so much for the heads up...im technology averse! If i cant access it on demand tonight ill be sure to watch tomorrow am. Popcorn for breakfast?

[ullmandds]

After watching I agree with many of the sentiment here...nice job Jeff L, Ryan C.

The constant repeating of the same pics and video footage of Mastro, and random hands flipping through 75 topps commons, the dramatic baseball innuendos...is typical...annoying reality tv.

I don't think as hard core as many of us are here we'd ever be satisfied with a production geared for the common non collecting folk. It was fine for what it was/is.

[GaryPassamonte]

I'm happy that a couple people sued and received restitution. These were big players with large losses. However, it is wrong that others, myself included, will never receive a penny from Mastro et al. The vast majority of people on the shill bidding list were not cheated out of large sums of money. How are they made whole in this case?

[ValKehl]

Might the term "class action" be applicable to the Mastro situation?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by GaryPassamonte

I'm happy that a couple people sued and received restitution. These were big players with large losses. However, it is wrong that others, myself included, will never receive a penny from Mastro et al. The vast majority of people on the shill bidding list were not cheated out of large sums of money. How are they made whole in this case?

They're not. You can blame the Chicago prosecutors for not going after Mastro's money. I sued them once, threatened to sue them a second time, and got two good amounts of money from them. If not for SA Brian Brusokas, there would never even have been charges filed in this case -- the prosecutors had to be literally dragged kicking and screaming to the grand jury.

That being said, Bill did find God if we all recall and I'm certain he's busy totaling up all the money he stole from his good hobby friends and checks will soon be in the mail.

[GaryPassamonte]

I guess the trick is finding an attorney willing to go after Mastro in a low dollar suit or, possibly, gather a group of victims to be represented by one attorney.

[irv]

Originally Posted by calvindog

They're not. You can blame the Chicago prosecutors for not going after Mastro's money. I sued them once, threatened to sue them a second time, and got two good amounts of money from them. If not for SA Brian Brusokas, there would never even have been charges filed in this case -- the prosecutors had to be literally dragged kicking and screaming to the grand jury.

That being said, Bill did find God if we all recall and I'm certain he's busy totaling up all the money he stole from his good hobby friends and checks will soon be in the mail.

Why was that, Jeff? Was there bigger fish to fry or more important (in their eyes) cases to go after?

Like you said, thank god SA, Brian Brusokas pursued this and is still actively try to help protect us collectors.
https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field...ts-memorabilia

Edit: Sorry, Jeff, I didn't mean to omit you as I also know you had a huge part in this as well. Thanks again for all you did!

[spaidly]

Originally Posted by Mdmtx

My post was the first reference to the guy with the shoebox. I did not defend Mastro at all. Never have. Never would. The shoebox guy has every right to be pissed because it does appear the Mastro took advantage of him.

However, I think it's fair to say he took advantage of the original seller. He mentioned someone else was coming up the driveway and he had to hurry and make the deal. In my opinion he took complete advantage of an unsuspecting seller. If this sale was on eBay, or from someone who held themselves out as a dealer, I would have no issue. But it wasn't portrayed that way. It was some individual who got screwed by a flipper. Bit I guess that shouldn't be a surprise in the baseball card world. There are a ton of guys in this hobby that have no problem conducting business by duping people.

Mark Medlin

As a buyer, I don't feel obligated telling the seller I think they priced their item too low no matter what their lot in life is (dealer, garage sale dude, hobbyist...). Sellers should do their research. Even pre-internet everyone knew baseball cards could be valuable. One trip to the local bookstore and a few hours of research is all the garage sale dude needed to do. Don't we all dream of "the find" and getting a killer deal on it?

Respectfully,
Scott

[Mdmtx]

[QUOTE=spaidly;1698588]As a buyer, I don't feel obligated telling the seller I think they priced their item too low no matter what their lot in life is (dealer, garage sale dude, hobbyist...). Sellers should do their research. Even pre-internet everyone knew baseball cards could be valuable. One trip to the local bookstore and a few hours of research is all the garage sale dude needed to do. Don't we all dream of "the find" and getting a killer deal on it?

Respectfully,
Scott[/QUOTE

Karma can be a bitch.

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=Mdmtx;1698592]

Originally Posted by spaidly

As a buyer, I don't feel obligated telling the seller I think they priced their item too low no matter what their lot in life is (dealer, garage sale dude, hobbyist...). Sellers should do their research. Even pre-internet everyone knew baseball cards could be valuable. One trip to the local bookstore and a few hours of research is all the garage sale dude needed to do. Don't we all dream of "the find" and getting a killer deal on it?

Respectfully,
Scott[/QUOTE

Karma can be a bitch.

+ many.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by spaidly

As a buyer, I don't feel obligated telling the seller I think they priced their item too low no matter what their lot in life is (dealer, garage sale dude, hobbyist...). Sellers should do their research. Even pre-internet everyone knew baseball cards could be valuable. One trip to the local bookstore and a few hours of research is all the garage sale dude needed to do. Don't we all dream of "the find" and getting a killer deal on it?

Respectfully,
Scott

Not all of us are looking to take advantage the elderly.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rats60

Not all of us are looking to take advantage the elderly.

Always 2 points of view. I am with the other guys on this one. If you are elderly you should know to do a little homework. I am almost elderly .....if I short sell something then it's no ones fault but my own. I don't believe the Gypsy story about the Carter collection either. That whole situation was just wrong, in looking at it with all of the facts known in the other scams.

On another point, I heard Mastro is putting those restitution checks in the mail soon. Just don't hold your breath....

[Snapolit1]

I see both sides. My parents live in a classic Florida retirement community. Just for fun I have considered putting an ad in a local paper classifieds looking to buy vintage baseball cards. Typically down there the husband kicks the bucket and the wife sells off his stuff. It would be amazing to walk in on some amazing shoebox in the closet, but the temptation to take advantage of some elderly widow -- who really isn't in a position to do a lot of research -- would be strong. How do you fairly tell someone what their cards are worth? I'm sure I could come up with all sorts of numbers. I really don't want to go there as they say. Someone wants my help I will send them to Al or someone else.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

Always 2 points of view. I am with the other guys on this one. If you are elderly you should know to do a little homework. I am almost elderly .....if I short sell something then it's no ones fault but my own. I don't believe the Gypsy story about the Carter collection either. That whole situation was just wrong, in looking at it with all of the facts known in the other scams.

On another point, I heard Mastro is putting those restitution checks in the mail soon. Just don't hold your breath....

So you're OK with all the scammers who prey on the elderly in real estate etc.?

http://www.miamiherald.com/living/article1951047.html

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So you're OK with all the scammers who prey on the elderly in real estate etc.?

That was a stupid question. No. Are you?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

That was a stupid question. No. Are you?

I didn't think so, then what's the difference?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I didn't think so, then what's the difference?

I think it is deplorable when the elderly get scammed.
What I was referring to is when doing a card deal and I use my thousands of hours of expertise to get a good deal. Why am I not allowed to do that but lawyers use their expertise to charge hundreds of dollars (or more) an hour? Just because my knowledge isn't from formal educating (in this area) doesn't mean it's less valuable. I think using one's expertise is the way to get ahead. And that doesn't mean I have to scam to do it.