D304 issue date theories and checklists for each brand

[gabrinus]

Thanks Brian...I've got an ungraded Weber Lajoie...I didn't know if that was the one you checklisted or if there is another...Jerry

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by gabrinus

Thanks Brian...I've got an ungraded Weber Lajoie...I didn't know if that was the one you checklisted or if there is another...Jerry

Hi Jerry, thanks. Lajoie for the Weber brand was previously verified and is on the checklist on the second post, but it doesn't hurt to have it reverified. And having a Lajoie with the Weber brand ain't too shabby either.


Brian

[JimC]

Fantastic information.

[t213]

Brian,

Thanks for assembling this great info. For tougher backs, I have a General Baking Collins and Webers Merkle.

Andy

[brianp-beme]

Thanks Jim and Andy. Brunners back cards are very cool, but I have always thought that a D304 card with any of the other backs added that little bit of special sauce to an already cool card from this set.

Brian

[Casey2296]

Great info Brian, this is one of those posts that should be archived for its content.

[gabrinus]

Thanks again Brian...Jerry

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by gabrinus

Thanks Brian...I've got an ungraded Weber Lajoie...I didn't know if that was the one you checklisted or if there is another...Jerry

Hi Jerry...I just realized I didn't quite answer your question previously. There is one Weber Lajoie (graded as a 4) on the SGC population report, and that is where I got my information from to include it on my known cards with Weber backs checklist. PSA does not show having graded any examples.

So with your example, the world knows of at least two.


Brian

[nolemmings]

Brian,
Nice research. You may want to consult an OC article from 2007 (Issue 11) that does an extensive analysis of these sets. I agree that the initial distribution date for the early two sets--Brunners and Fleischmann's-- is most likely 1912 for reasons you have stated.
I did see a few ads for Martens and Weber Bakeries in the 1913 and 1914 papers from newspapers.com, and there was no mention of the cards:

As you can see, there was an ad for some sort of game [insert dirty joke here], so the bakeries should not have been averse to advertising the cards. No luck so far, although there are obviously other newspaper sites. Note that the Martens bakery appears to have been located in Jersey City, if that was not known already.

[nolemmings]

I think it likely that Brunners and Fleischmann stopped after 1912, since their sets lack the blacked-out team info, and it would be less effective to market the identical 25 cards in following years. I also thought 1913 may have been skipped altogether because of the Evers blacked-out card in all of these sets (Weber unknown), which would not have been made until 1914. However, the author of the OC article states that the Frank Chance can be found with or without the team blackout in General Baking, which suggests multiple printings for that set that may have spanned two or more seasons. Maybe this is limited to General Baking, which was not tied to any particular bakery and thus could have been issued in multiple areas.
Finally, as for Billy Kelly, a look at some of the newspapers of the time shows that he and Marty O'Toole were practically joined at the hip from their days in St. Paul to the big leagues-- it was even hinted that O'Toole would not be sold to the many teams bidding on him unless Kelly was part of the deal, and the catcher was given loads of credit for his battery mate's success. This could explain why Kelly was included at the time. He was dumped by the Pirates in November 1913, however, which would not explain his inclusion in a 1914 release. He was initially dealt to Toronto in November but shortly thereafter landed in Newark, which could explain the New Jersey Bakeries' desire to keep him in the set, although one might have thought his team name would have been blacked out.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I think it likely that Brunners and Fleischmann stopped after 1912, since their sets lack the blacked-out team info, and it would be less effective to market the identical 25 cards in following years. I also thought 1913 may have been skipped altogether because of the Evers blacked-out card in all of these sets (Weber unknown), which would not have been made until 1914. However, the author of the OC article states that the Frank Chance can be found with or without the team blackout in General Baking, which suggests multiple printings for that set that may have spanned two or more seasons. Maybe this is limited to General Baking, which was not tied to any particular bakery and thus could have been issued in multiple areas.
Finally, as for Billy Kelly, a look at some of the newspapers of the time shows that he and Marty O'Toole were practically joined at the hip from their days in St. Paul to the big leagues-- it was even hinted that O'Toole would not be sold to the many teams bidding on him unless Kelly was part of the deal, and the catcher was given loads of credit for his battery mate's success. This could explain why Kelly was included at the time. He was dumped by the Pirates in November 1913, however, which would not explain his inclusion in a 1914 release. He was initially dealt to Toronto in November but shortly thereafter landed in Newark, which could explain the New Jersey Bakeries' desire to keep him in the set, although one might have thought his team name would have been blacked out.

In the SGC population report for the General Baking back I did notice two listings for Frank Chance, one being Chance with a 'No Team' identifier, and the other listing Chance with no identifier. I didn't want to assume that the no identifier listing indicated a Chance existed in General Baking that did not have the team name blacked out. But being that the Old Cardboard article identifies a Chance with team existing, it does seem to point to this back being released in some form as early as 1912, as Chance was still a member of the Cubs until late 1912. And since General Baking was the parent company and thus a General Baking back would not have tied the inclusion of a card into the loaves of a specific bakery is a good, valid point. Because of your mention of all of this, I think I will change the original post with an update pointing out your post, to reflect this General Baking multi-year possibility.

And the Kelly playing for Newark in 1914 ties in perfectly with the both the two New Jersey bakeries (Martens and Weber) keeping him in the set, as well as him being in the General Baking set (since this set could have been issued in 1912 or 1913 as well). I was thinking it odd that he was still included in these three sets even though he was no longer with the Pirates at the end of 1913. Team name not being blacked out in the Martens and Weber sets is a little curious mystery.

Good stuff Todd!


Brian

[gabrinus]

Martens was always assumed to be rarer than Weber but in my experience and your checklist it looks like that may not be the case...granted I know checklists are never complete...Jerry

[Leon]

Originally Posted by gabrinus

Martens was always assumed to be rarer than Weber but in my experience and your checklist it looks like that may not be the case...granted I know checklists are never complete...Jerry

There were a couple of very small finds of Martens (one had the little puple star stamps on back), not so much the Webers, as far as I know.

Nice research Brian and Todd....Thanks for the efforts.



Again, from my Previous collection but to give a nice visual of the ads

.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Brian,
Nice research. You may want to consult an OC article from 2007 (Issue 11) that does an extensive analysis of these sets. I agree that the initial distribution date for the early two sets--Brunners and Fleischmann's-- is most likely 1912 for reasons you have stated.
I did see a few ads for Martens and Weber Bakeries in the 1913 and 1914 papers from newspapers.com, and there was no mention of the cards:

As you can see, there was an ad for some sort of game [insert dirty joke here], so the bakeries should not have been averse to advertising the cards. No luck so far, although there are obviously other newspaper sites. Note that the Martens bakery appears to have been located in Jersey City, if that was not known already.

Great information and ads Todd. I would assume newspaper advertising for the Martens and Weber baseball cards would be out there, but perhaps its current elusiveness is also an indicator for why these two backs are tough to come by. It is interesting to note that the two least common card backs, Martens and Weber, were evidently both New Jersey bakeries.

Brian