Picking the Brains of the Hobby Experts

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

-What is the oldest known baseball?

-Oldest known bat?

-Oldest known glove?

-What's the oldest known photo showing all nine or more members of a team in uniform?

-Oldest known game action photo?

I have more questions, but we'll see where this post goes from here.

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

I'll bite and try to answer the last two:

- '58 Knicks/Excelsiors

- '61 game action scene at Princeton

Edited: I think Barry auctioned a '64 game action CDV one time, but not sure.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Just noticed this. Good question.

There are lemon peel balls that date to the 1840's, but if you mean the oldest trophy ball, there is an 1853 Knickerbocker gold ball owned by one of the board members.

The oldest photo I know of picturing a complete team is a full plate tintype, dating probably around 1860, of a club that Mark Rucker identified as the Atwater BBC. I don't know how he determined that, but the image is superb and it is the nicest and earliest baseball team tintype I have ever seen.

I don't know bats and gloves at all, and I would have to give some thought to the game action question.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jimmy -I can't recall selling an 1864 game action seen. Do you remember anything about it?

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Posted By: Jimmy Leiderman

Barry, the CDV was part of a '64 class album.

Auction date: Sep 23, 2004
Lot #6

Don't have the catalog at hand, just a list I keep at the office, so I can't give more details.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Barry, I've seen the Knickerbocker ball in the Smithsonian Baseball book...do you know was that an actual ball that was covered in gold or was it just a trophy?

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Posted By: John Harrell

Dan,

The oldest verifiable bats would be presentation type bats on which would be inscribed the date. All early bats were hand made in some way and almost never were dated. Bat companies, per se, did not exist until the 1870's, although many woodworking businesses made bats, along with ax handles, pick handles, and other wooden implements. Exact dating, without some type of provenance, is almost impossible. I have numerous bats that I estimate were made from the 1850's to 70's but have no way to date them exactly.

Along this line, I have 3 town ball bats. Two of them have the letters PPR inscribed on the base of the knob. The other has the letters BRC in a circle imprinted in the barrel. These inscriptions were stamped in, not hand carved. Anyone have an idea about what they might stand for?

John

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jimmy- I looked it up and you are right. I entirely forgot about that lot.

Dan- the ball ostensibly is the actual game used ball, but the paint is so thick there is no way to know for sure. There is also an 1854 Knick ball that is now in the HOF.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Who was the first professional player to use a glove?

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Posted By: barrysloate

It was what's his name.

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Posted By: Bob Pomilla

http://www.baseballgloves.com/interviews/first-glove.html

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Posted By: Clint

The earliest gloves I know about are the fingerless gloves. They resemble weightlifter gloves. There were earlier ones but I don't believe they can be distinguished from regular gloves. Here's a cabinet of the Draper Maynard factory. They made some of the first baseball mitts. I'll post another photo later of the gloves.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Cool photo Clint. And what is laid out in the foreground? Are they trees? Looks a little like dead bodies in a civil war photo.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Thanks Bob...now that I read that it did jog something in my memory about Doug Allison being the first.

Clint, great photo....so that was obviously before Maynard came along...What does it say on the roof below the Draper & Co part?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Barry, probably the wood they used to make the bats....Maybe?

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Posted By: ramram

The 1858 Atwater team that Barry mentioned:



(from the Rucker Archive)

Rob M.

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Posted By: Clint

Thanks guys. It's wood laid out in front. The roof reads Plymouth Buck Gloves. Here's a cover from 1884. It shows Arthur Irwin model gloves. Mastro sold a similar cover that had a fingerless glove on it.

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Posted By: brian

I bet those are rolled up cowhides in the photo for making the gloves.

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Posted By: Mark L

Robert Edward Auctions recently sold a bat that is attributed to George Wright, circa 1869, which would make it a pretty old "game used bat."

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=8169