T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?

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Posted By: Dustan Hedlin

My Schulte front view is also a Piedmont 150, if you're still taking a count.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Brian W.

This was expected by me. It only serves to reinforce my confidence in my "Piedmont-1st"
theory. The next to go will probably be Ewing.

Lindaman is by far the "mystery man" to me.

To quote Jackie Gleason.....Brian...."You are the Greatest" ! !

Ted Z

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Posted By: barry arnold

Brian W et al

the pics are a fascinating tributary that somehow take us right back into the main flow of discussion.
many thanks.

best,


barry

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Updated 6/27/06

Those of us who like to get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 Monster
really appreciate all this data from at least 80 Forum posters and six Forum
"readers" who have not only contributed their inputs, but also their time in
the process.

After sampling 500+ cards in this survey, we have reduced the possibility of
additional cards that could have appeared in the 150-only Series (besides
the known 10) to the following 4 cards....Ames....Doyle....Ewing....Lindaman.

PLAYER.................350........HINDU.......EPDG ........150

Ames (Hds/chest).....0............2..............0.......... ...30

Doyle (throw)...........0............3..............0... ..........26

Ewing.....................0.............2......... .....3.............24

Jones (St Louis).......1.............5..............2....... ......27

Lindaman................0............10........... ...6.............35

Jordan (port)...........3.............0..............0... ...........10

Spencer..................1.............2.......... ....1..............12

Schulte (Cubs).........1.............5..............0..... .........42

This in no way is meant to be a conclusive study at this point, as more data is needed.

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Posted By: daryle

Out of around 75-100 T206s I have 1 (Abbaticchio). Have had 2 Lenox backs but only EPDG.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

This is the thread that doesn't end... and it goes on and on my friend.

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Posted By: Jordan And Company

i dont have any T206's YET but im getting some soon so ill answer your question when i get my T206's

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Posted By: barry arnold

Thanks, Daryle.
It looks like your epdg count is around 1% of your 206's which is where most folks who contributed fell.
Please provide Ted Z. any information you may have on the cards he is surveying (cf. the entry right before yours on this thread).
also please provide pics of 206 Ritchey for Brian W.'s new thread for
research data purposes.

again, many thanks

best,

barry

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Updated 6/28/06

Those of us who like to get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 Monster
really appreciate all this data from at least 80 Forum posters and six Forum
"readers" who have not only contributed their inputs, but also their time in
the process.

After sampling 500+ cards in this survey, we have reduced the possibility of
additional cards that could have appeared in the 150-only Series (besides
the known 10) to the following 4 cards....Ames....Doyle....Ewing....Lindaman.

PLAYER.................350........HINDU.......EPDG ........150

Ames (Hds/chest).....0............2..............0.......... ...31

Doyle (throw)...........0............3..............0... ..........27

Ewing.....................0.............2......... .....3.............24

Jones (St Louis).......1.............5..............2....... ......28

Lindaman................0............10........... ...6.............36

Jordan (port)...........3.............0..............0... ...........10

Spencer..................1.............2.......... ....1..............12

Schulte (Cubs).........1.............5..............0..... .........45

This in no way is meant to be a conclusive study at this point, as more data is needed

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Brian,

LOVE the DOVE !!! If it is an intended design variation rather than a printing error, I would say that you have discovered a new T206 subject. Should we call it "Ritchey (With Dove)" or "Ritchey (With Clouds)"?

Also, thanks for confirmation of Jones (St. Louis) in Piedmont 350.

Scot

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Scot,
I do believe the printers intended the Dove to be visible in the cloud's, because one of Boston's nicknames was the "Doves". I guess it didn't work out to well in the first run so they added the dark blue in the second run to bring out the image.
I was hoping someone would pick up on the dove nickname when they saw the cards, but it took until today for someone to notice. JOGGERDRU emailed me about it a few hours ago.

Be well Brian

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Posted By: jay behrens

Hey now, you guys need just stop this baseball card talk. You are about pass up the Bonds/steroid thread :-p

Jay

Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Jay B

Can it be possible that a Net54 Thread such as this can run 262 posts......
staying on topic......devoid of people bashing......and at the same time be
very informative (to us T206 "nuts")......and at least somewhat interesting
to those who are not as serious about these cards ? ?

T-Rex Ted

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Posted By: jay behrens

Ted, I love seeing a thread like this. I'm just having a little fun because the thread has gone on for so long without degenerating. This IS the heart and soul of what this board is all about. Sadly, the threads that dengenerate are ones that always get the most run and this thread proven to be the exception. A very good exception that we need more of.

Jay

Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

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Posted By: barry arnold

Scot R. , Brian W.

My vote is for Ritchey(with dove)for variation designation.

great work, brian!

best,

barry

p.s. trex and jay---heart and soul, yes!!! collegiality, yes!!!

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Hey Gents,

In case somebody hasn't already mentioned it, there was a Ritchey (With Dove) Sweet Caporal 350/30 in the recent REA auction. Great photos at:

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/site/bidplace.aspx?itemid=3765

More confirmation that Ritchey (With Dove) is a distinct subject and that Old Mill (which typically appears with the dove) is a 350 series back!

Scot

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Scot,
Here's another Old Mill dove photo I forgot I had:







My study includes 7 Old Mills all with Dove, and 4-5 EPDG without a dove.

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Posted By: Joe Brennan

Sorry I'm so late with my reply, but better late than never I guess. I have 122 T206's. 1 El P back. I sold a few raw cards about 3 months ago and I think I sold 2 El P backs, but they were pretty rough.
Out of the 122 cards I have 1 El P, 1 American Beauty and 1 Tolsoi.
Old Mill, Polar Bear, Piedmont and Sweet Cap round out the rest of the backs. Joe

A scared man can't gamble and a jealous man can't work.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

My suspicion is that Ritchey appears WITH dove in Sweet Cap 350 and Old Mill and appears WITHOUT dove in Hindu, EPDG, Piedmont 150, Sovereign 150 and Sweet Cap 150. (I have never seen Ritchey in Sovereign 350--he may not even exist with that back.)

Whether Ritchey appears with or without dove in Piedmont 350 will be telling on Ted's "primacy of Piedmont" theory--if he appears WITHOUT dove in Piedmont 350 it will be very supportive of Ted's theory since it would strongly suggest that Piedmont 350 was printed BEFORE Old Mill and Sweet Cap 350.

Brian--I hope you realize the magnitude of your discovery. Apparently, nobody else figured this out (or at least made it public) for almost a century!

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Posted By: Dan Koochin

I'll say with EPDG its no Dove (1st assorted)
Piedmont 350 (2nd, without dove, and with dove (corrected)
Sweet Cap 350 with Dove.

Theoretical timeline
Aug. 1909 Hindu Assorted/350
Sept. 1909 EPDG Assorted/350
Sept. 1909 Piedmont 350 (mirrors EPDG) low print run

After that (theoretical dates anyone?)
Sweet Cap 350
Corrected Piedmont 350 (Ritchie w. Dove)
Old Mill

(Am I a risk taker or what!)

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Posted By: barry arnold

Joe B.

many thanks for the data. Your epdg holdings indicate a little less that
1% of epdg relative to your total 206 holdings which continues to fall in
line with previous data received.

thanks scot for underscoring the major import of Brian's findings re:
Ritchey; hearing the word discovery is particularly exciting!!
why did you wait so long to bring it out in the open, Brian?!!!

all the best,

barry

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Posted By: JimB

Here is mine. As you can see, it is a Piedmont 350. I don't think it undermines Ted's Piedmont Primacy Theory if all 350's have the dove.
JimB

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Posted By: scott brockelman

There is a marked difference in the print registration and color qualities of all 150 and 350 series cards. After seeing many of them you can pick out the 350 series from the 150's by the fronts only. To think that this is an intentional "dove" is far fetched, it is only the different print/color run of the 350 series in my opinion.

Scott

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

out of 476 in the set I just sold in REA. Abbott of Toledo........

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Posted By: barry arnold

tom b.,
many thanks for the epdg data.
here we're looking at less than 1% (in fact, around one tenth of one percent)
epdg relative to the total of nearly 500 206's. still it can be seen as
corroborative of our typical 1% figure.
it must have been hard to let go of such a great collection, Tom, but
congratulations on the sell via REA.

Please respond to ted and Brian W.'s queries, if you haven't already.

best,

barry

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Posted By: JimB

I missed before that J Hull has a P350 Ritchey without the dove. So P350 is seen both ways. Theorists?
JimB

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Posted By: Elliot

I'm with Scott B., I don't think it's a deliberate variation by the printers, rather just a different print run. I think what's interesting is the confirmation of the "Piedmont Primacy" theory as so far we've only seen the 150 Ritchey print run front on 150's and 2 350's, both Piedmont, but no other 350 backs. We should continue this research on other cards that had multiple front print runs and see whether or not it is only on Piedmont 350's where the earlier front is found.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I was closely looking over my set and was going to post, but I think Elliott just
succintly conveyed my thoughts before I did. Anyhow, here is my "take" for
whatever it is worth.....perhaps a penny or two.

Since I have my T206's "segregated" in my album according to Series (150, 350, 460),
it becomes more evident. And, my observation is that the American Lithograph Co.
was a lot more creative with BLUE INK in the printing of the 2nd Series (350) cards.
Have you guys ever compared Kid Elberfeld (NY) with his Washington portrait card ?

The NY portrait (initially in the 150 Series) has the "Kid" with Brown eyes and the
and the tougher Washington portrait (350 Series-only) has the Kid with BLUE eyes.

I am just having my wake-up coffee; and, I will post scans on these two cards to
show this subtle difference. And, there are more examples of this in the 2nd Series.
And, of course the Ritchey card is probably the most outstanding example of this.
Kudos to you, Brian W, for bringing this to our attention.

T-Rex Ted

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

To follow up my prior post....note the color difference in the Kid's eyes on these two
cards. I have observed many of the Kid's Washington portrait and they all have Blue
eyes.....this blue color is consistent on every card.



I realize my scan does not show a distinct (or clear) difference. Sorry, about this; but, please compare your actual cards and you will clearly see the Blue eyes in the Washington version.

In the meantime, I will try to come up with more examples of the "blue enhancement" on 2nd Series cards.

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Posted By: J Hull

This thread gets better and better.
Great find, Ted.

Elliot and Scott B, I know with a thread this size it's almost impossible to see every post let alone remember them, but I made the argument some ways back that the "dove" variation is the result of an additional layer of ink being used that was not being used on the earlier "non-dove" version. Of course, the chromolithography used to produce the T206s required a new printing plate (or stone) for each color. I've been hoping that someone would posit a theory as to why an additional plate was introduced to the process for Ritchey somewhat midstream (apparently at least part ways through the P350 print run). Are there any brave souls out there who care to hazard a guess?

Btw, if we're looking for changes in blue ink, we should also keep in mind that green was created by overlaying layers of yellow and blue ink, so there may be changes to the color green as well.

Jamie

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

so Barry doesn't get me.......

From the near set I just sold in REA.......
Ames.....P150
Doyle(throw).....P350
Ewing.....SC150
Jones(St.L).....P150
Lindaman.....SC150
Lundgren(Chi).....P150
Schulte(Chi).....P150

One 350.......Doyle(throwing)

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks Tom B

OK, with Tom's input of Doyle (throwing) with a PIEDMONT 350 back, we are now left
with the following still standing as possible 150-only candidates......

Ames (hands at chest)
Ewing
Lindaman

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Posted By: Scot Reader

The order of color application for T206 was:

Yellow
Black
Brown
Blue
Dark Green
Red

Ritchey with and without the dove has dark green and red. So one thing for sure is that Ritchey without the dove isn't the mere result of failure to complete all stages of the colorization process, such as, for example, Sweeney (Boston) missing red ink.

The question then in my mind is whether (a) there was a conscious attempt to add an extra layer of blue in the 350 series to create the dove image in the sky, or (b) the dove was there all along in the 150 series and is just more pronounced in the 350 series. If (a) then I would say Ritchey (With Dove) is a legitimate design variation possibly worthy of separate checklisting. If (b) then I would say it is just another run-of-the-(old) mill color variation. (I recognize others dispute that it is even a dove--which is a another question).

So I am interested in seeing Ritcheys in 150 that have the putative dove, however faint. Does anybody have one they can show-off?

Scot

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Posted By: Mike (18colt)

Had a thought about the EPDG population.

IF estimates of the total number of T206 cards in existance today number say, one million cards, and if based on the research on this thread roughly 1% of cards are found with an EPDG back, then by doing the math one could conclude then that there are about 10,000 T206 cards floating around in the world with an EPDG back (note - as stated, based on an assumed million card population). IF the estimate of total T206s in existance sounds reasonable, the number of EPDG backed cards doesn't sound like they'd be that hard to locate (as opposed to Drum backs, where it's likely under 100 exist).

Plus, if we go on the 10,000 cards with EPDG estimate, and for the sake of easy mental math we use 200 as the number of subjects possible with this back, then there could be around 50 of each subject with this back still floating around (again, easy math using 200 and not the actual amount).

So, in terms of total cards available, EPDG sounds plentiful. In terms of total cards per subject (front pose), acquiring one of each would prove difficult.

Just my two cents.

Mike (18colt)

PS: One thought about the primacy theory that bugs me -- explaining the Wagner, which is mostly Sweet Caporal (this was noted earlier in the thread by another poster but not commented/responded to). Perhaps Wagner is an example of some odd marketing technique copied today by the shiny card makers (Piedmont is most prevalent, and if a collector wanted them all, they'd have to branch out to other brands to increase the likelihood of getting Honus).

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Scot R

Upon very close observation of my two Ritchey cards (150 Series and are shown in prior
post here). I see a very vague pattern in the sky background; that, I think with blue or
green color enhancement could yield the "clouds or dove" pattern we are seeing on the
350 versions of Ritchey.

If one "sectionalizes" their T206 set, as I have, you will see a dramatic difference in
the BLUE backgrounds. Of the 153 cards of my Piedmont 150 Series (which are Blue
backgrounds) all have a Pale Blue coloring. The one possible exception is the Rube
Waddell portrait, of which I have 4 examples. Two 150 and two 350 and both the 350
are a deep Blue, while one of the 150 is a pale Blue and the one in my set is a deep
Blue. To finally acquire a Deep Blue Waddell (P150) I must have gone thru a dozen.

Now, as you proceed thru my T206 album into the 350 section you immediately notice
the deeper Blue colors. Chase portrait is one of the 1st that strikes your attention with
its rich deep Blue background. And, this brighter and richer Blue coloring continues thru
the Minor Leaguers (except the Southern Lge. cards which do not have any deep Blue).
And, finally the 460-only section continues with the deeper Blue coloring.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Mike,
I don't have enough time to go through all of your well thought out post, but I will say a word or two about Wagner.
About 75% of the known Wagners have come from in and around the NY/ Philly area which had a much higher concentration of immigrants who preferred the Sweet Caporal brand for it's turkish blend, while Piedmont's were more popular in the South and Midwestern portions of the country. I don't have any knowledge of the Sovereign brands popularity, but do know that isn't wasn't anywhere near the big 2. And as for Hindu, it was only distributed in very few southern states mainly Louisiana, and Texas. Be back Brian

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Mike and Brian W.

Brian's explanation is very true and if I recall correctly 2 of the Sweet Caporal
Factories were based in NY.

And, don't forget the most significant copy of the Wagner card (Gretzky-Gidwitz,
et al) originally came from Long Island, New York.

T-Rex Ted

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Posted By: warshawlaw

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Posted By: RayB

I find myself visiting this thread on almost a daily basis as the suppositions continue.
The depth of this Board members T-206 collections and knowledge makes it supremely possible to chat about the sets idiosyncracies with such focus.

Scot - I can't wait for the second print run of your manuscript and your analysis of the myriad of conclusions supposed here.

As an owner of a now 1/3 complete T-206 set this has been a great ride thus far for me.

Thanks guys.
RayB

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Ted,

Thanks for your response to my query. I suspect I will eventually wind-up in the camp that believes the color/sky differences between Ritchey 150 and Ritchey 350 are just a matter of degree, not kind. The original point made by Brian (I believe) that Ritchey Old Mill always (at least as far as we know) appears with the dove and that this suggests a 350 series print start for Old Mill is still very useful. This conforms with the fact that (at least as far as we know) 150-only subjects cannot be found with Old Mill. It will also be interesting to find-out what the breakdown between dove v. no dove for Ritchey Piedmont 350 is since that will be telling on your primacy of Piedmont theory. Rest assured that I will be tracking Ritcheys on ebay in the coming months.

Now, let's find those Ames (Hands at Chest), Ewing and Lindaman 350s (if they exist)!

Scot

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Updated 6/30/06

Those of us who like to get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 Monster really
appreciate all this data from at least 80 Forum posters and eight Forum "readers",
all of whom have not only contributed their inputs, but also their time in the process.

Ten cards....M. Brown (Cubs), Geo Brown (Chi), Burch (bat), Donlin (hands-knees),
Evers (blue sky), Pattee, Pelty (horiz), Powers, Reulbach (Cubs) and Honus Wagner
are recognized as being in the 150-only Series; and therefore, are much tougher T206
cards than most others.

In this Thread we have considered several more T206's to be in this category. After
sampling 500+ cards in this survey, we have reduced the potential candidates down
to the following 3 cards....Ames (hands/chest)....Ewing....Lindaman.



PLAYER.................350........HINDU.......EPDG ........150

Ames (Hds/chest).....0............2..............0.......... ...32

Doyle (throw)...........1............3..............0... ..........27

Ewing.....................0.............2......... .....3.............25

Jones (St Louis).......1.............5..............2....... ......29

Lindaman................0............10........... ...6.............37

Jordan (port)...........3.............0..............0... ...........10

Spencer..................1.............2.......... ....1..............12

Schulte (Cubs).........1.............5..............0..... .........46

This in no way is meant to be a conclusive study at this point, as more data is needed

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Ted Z.

many thanks for all the attention to the details of the various arguments presented.
your 'sectionalizing' argument re: the 150 to 350 color change is most illuminative.although i don't have the pied 150 waddell, i note that my Waddell portrait sc 150 fact 30 exhibits one of the
deepest blues of any of my cards, no matter what the series. I note that you mention that you have one of four pied 150's that exhibits similarly. My
Waddell even presents with a deeper blue than my Chase pied 350 portrait.
What does the exceptionality of the blue coloring of the Waddell in your
Pied 150 portrait say about the argument that there is a deepening of the
blue color from series to series? Also does this impact your argument regarding color enhancement in the 350 series which gives rise to the clarity of the dove---so that we're saying as Scot does in a recent post that we're perhaps dealing with a matter of degree rather than of kind.
Is the Waddell significant?

thanks for the help.
and the fabulous ride.

best,
barry

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

OK guys, remember that song....who sang it, and what was the year ?

BARRY A.

At the risk of repeating myself....unless you have your T206 cards (or set) divided
up by Series, it is difficult to appreciate the difference in the Blue coloring between
the cards printed in the 150 Series vs the 350 or 460 Series.

The difference in the Ritchey cards on display in this Thread made me to take a better
look at my set, and I noticed the Light or Pale Blue coloring among the 153 cards in
the 150 Series. Then, I started noting a stark contrast in the Blue coloring in the
subsequent two series. The Waddell (portrait) is the only card that has a deep Blue
color in the 150 Series. I cannot explain why, perhaps it is an anamoly.

American Litho. must have changed printers or acquired a richer quality of Blue ink
when they started printing the 350 Series (and 460) cards. Some notable examples
of cards with a deep Blue color are Chase, Chase (dk cap), Chase (trophy), Clymer,
Groom, Knabe, Livingstone, Matty (dk cap), Nattress, Speaker, Thielmann, etc.

And, my point of all this, is that the sky affect we are seeing in the Ritchey card is
just the result of a difference in the printing process with respect to the application
of the Blue ink in the "350" cards. And, not a re-designed sky with clouds. And, until
we see a Ritchey with a 150 back with the "clouds in the sky", I think this "Bluer ink"
explanation is valid.

[Archive]

Posted By: barry arnold

Ted Z.
an emendation:
Blue on Blue, heartache on heartache--Bobby Vinton, the Paleolithic era
now trex ted and herbivore barry really makes sense!!!

thanks for the clarification of the coloring trajectory---
and for indicating the anomaly status of the Waddell portrait.

happy fourth of July weekend

barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
Here you go.... Piedmont 150 back...

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BRIAN W.

I am back....and not surprised to see your P150 Ritchey with the "cloud effect".

As I noted in an earlier post (6/30 1:43 PM) on this thread (in response to Scot
Reader's query)....the potential for the cloud effect has always been there, and
whether it appears or not, is simply a combination of two factors, the quality of
the white cardboard and the quality of Blue ink in the printing process.

Anyhow, we have allowed ourselves to be distracted from the very important
point that you were trying to make with your initial posts of your Ritchey
cards......when the EPDG backs were introduced.

Can we conclude that the EPDG cards were concurrent with some of the 150 Series
cards, or did the EPDG cards immediately follow them into the 350 Series ?

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
I hope you had a great vacation... Now, back to cards.

I don't mean to be a pain, but in your earlier post you state:

"And, until
we see a Ritchey with a 150 back with the "clouds in the sky", I think this "Bluer ink"
explanation is valid."
Then I show you one and you continue to suggest it was merely ink or a paper stock problem. I'm not a printing expert, but I do know that you can't create the dove/cloud effect on the 150 or 350 card without a viod or pattern that would keep the ink from covering the entire area. If these dove/cloud's were in different places I might agree with you, but they aren't.I don't disagree that the added darker blue color of the 350 series will make the Dove/Cloud more visible, but adding dark blue to the existing colors would not create the dove/cloud. To create the same pattern of the cloud or dove in the same exact position on the card had to be done by design, not by the quality of the stock, or ink.


Ok, back to EPDG vs Old Mill. It appears from the very limited sample of less than 10 of each card that the EPDG cards have the 150 look, while all of the Old Mill's have the 350 look. That along with the fact, that none of the 150/350 short printed cards we have been tracking have been seen with Old Mill back would lead me to assume that Old Mill's were released with or shortly before the 350 series.
EPDG backs, on the other hand have been seen with several of the short printed 150/350 cards, so they must have been printed shortly after the 150 and before the 350.

Personally, I don't think the ATC had any idea how popular the promotion would become and added brands as it became apparent that there customers enjoyed the cards as much as the smokes. Otherwise, how do we have so many of them almost a hundred years later.
Happy 4th to all Brian

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Posted By: John Spencer

I only have one EPDG out of about 100 T206's, but it is a good one: Cobb red background PSA 7. As all Spanish speakers would know, El Principe de Gales translates to the Prince of Wales, as in the Queen of England's first born,Charles (Chuck) Windsor.

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Posted By: barry arnold

John,

many thanks for the epdg data. You easily fall into the 1% category that appears to be 'the standard', with your 1 out of 100 t206's.
congrats on the 7 Cobb with epdg!

happy 4th everyone

best,

barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

BRIAN W.

Your not being a pain.....I went out on a limb with that explanation....and now I
am on the ground. It was a soft landing, though, no problem.

At this point I think we all are mystified by this Claude Ritchey "sky" phenomena.
But, you got to give it to us, sooner or later we will "flush-out" any mysterious card.
However, we haven't seen those "350" cards of Ames, Ewing, or Lindaman....yet ?

Anyhow, I will stick to my "150 Pale Blue......350/460 Deep Blue" theory. There is a
definite distinction in these colors between Series. The T206 guys were not "skimpy"
with the Blue ink when they printed the 350/460 Series cards; as they were when
they printed the 150 Series cards.

I am still not certain where we stand on the EPDG introduction, since your initial
example of a Ritchey (EPDG) card without the "sky effect" was to be considered
a 150 benchmark. But, then doesn't the appearance of a P150 Ritchey muck-up
your above argument ?