Show us your "alleged" stolen nypl spaldings...."

[Freddie Maguire]

I thought it might be helpful to start a thread that didn't get bogged down with arguing about replevin and accusations.

Why don't we use the our collective knowledge to go investigate and put our skills to the test. Together can help expose the stolen goods that have sold on the market for the last few decades and put together a checklist of missing items-maybe we'll post them all.

Pull images from old auction catalogue scans, photos, old SCD's, Old Judge's etc. that you believe could match missing library items. This isn't meant to be a place for empty accusations, just observations. Maybe our detective work will even lead us to the culprits.

Like the Ole Professor said, "You could look it up!"

Here's a gem to kick it all off. It only seems fitting to start with old "Father Harry". Looks like he's rather pleased he got some of his letters back.

This one's perfect:
1. It's a Randall Cabinet Photo of HW on the NYPL missing list.
2. Exquisite back damage and paper loss. Luckily, just far enough away from Harry's signature.
3. I know, It's not unique (aside from the signature) But at least one or two of those Randalls out there are hot. OK, I'm only saying it's "alleged" to have a chance to be hot.
4, Harry did sign this one to someone. And it's Spence authenticated.
5. What I love about this one most is that it was from the Barry Halper Collection that wasn't sold at Sotheby's. That really gives the item some extra credibility.
6. Lastly, notice how REA describes the paper loss as coming from "removal from an album". Which album?

http://robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2007/21.html

[Leon]

That's a great looking cabinet. Sorry, I don't think I have any stolen items to help out with. Anyone else?

[prewarsports]

Without going over to the other thread, which is really long and boring even for a Lawyer, is there a link to the stolen items list from the NYPL?

I apologize if the info is already on here somewhere.

Rhys

[rhettyeakley]

No stolen material here either, but don't let having actual evidence of the item being stolen from the NYPL get in your way...let the accusations fly...

[baseballart]

If people have concerns about particular items, they should contact the NYPL directly. The person I contacted last year about an ebay item was:

Robert J. Vanni
Vice President, General Counsel and Secretary
The New York Public Library, Astor, Lenox and Tilden Foundations
Fifth Avenue and 42nd Street
New York, New York 10018-2788
tel. (212) 930-0744
fax (212) 391-2503
rvanni@nypl.org

As it turned out, he advised that the item had been deaccessioned by the NYPL. He indicated that if there were other items of concern, the NYPL was always grateful if such items could be brought to its attention.

I hope this assists, as I think such contact is first appropriate, rather than having a debate on a public forum without full consideration of the position of the NYPL on an item.

Max

[Freddie Maguire]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

No stolen material here either, but don't let having actual evidence of the item being stolen from the NYPL get in your way...let the accusations fly...

Originally Posted by prewarsports

Without going over to the other thread, which is really long and boring even for a Lawyer, is there a link to the stolen items list from the NYPL?

I apologize if the info is already on here somewhere.

Rhys

I can understand the obvious trepidation by the members of this board. Accusations are ugly and lead to bickering which, on the internet, tends to its most juvenile form. That's why I started this thread. It's for posting items that match the New York Public Library's list of stolen goods.

There's no need to accuse anyone of anything here; I suppose that's what the other thread is for. Please just add to the catalog of missing items so that the community can show it is responsible and part of the recovery process. Without us, the effort is doomed.

I've attached the list for the NYPL's stolen items.

Here is one item that seems to match the list very well. In fact, it's marked as returned to the NYPL . It's listed as "O'Rourke and another, Bridgeport. Compliments to his dear friend Henry Chadwick , Jas H O'Rourke" It's sad but most likely that whole inscription may have been obliterated. I don't know, I never saw this one in person. It says the Library recovered it in Feb 07.





If you feel like you recognize something on the list, post it. If you are in error, I'm sure there will be plenty of people to say so. If you are correct, you've done your duty.

Let's not forget that not only is Harry Wright the father of professional baseball, he is also the father of baseball collecting. His collection was without equal before these sad thefts. We owe it to the hobby he helped to create to right the wrongs.

[19cbb]

Originally Posted by Freddie Maguire

I've attached the list for the NYPL's stolen items.

Freddie, I don't see the attachment

[Freddie Maguire]

Originally Posted by 19cbb

Freddie, I don't see the attachment

I'm sorry about that. You're right. The file is too big. It's a pdf. Does anyone have any suggestions?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

No stolen material here either, but don't let having actual evidence of the item being stolen from the NYPL get in your way...let the accusations fly...

That has never stopped this board before why should it now? If this was about Mastro everyone would be throwing a pitch fork party with nooses at the ready....I applaud Freddie wholeheartedly for trying to better the hobby and I hope others will too.....The only reason you wouldn't applaud him is if you are the one who did something wrong. I have never seen any proof of any theft. If the NYPL says they are missing items then so be it. As to the above photo....I don't think you can tell anything from that back, except it has paper loss.

edited to add clarity

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Freddie Maguire

I'm sorry about that. You're right. The file is too big. It's a pdf. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Please send your pdf to me and I will figure something out. It can be sent to leonl@flash.net

thanks again for trying to help the hobby!!!

[19cbb]

Originally Posted by Freddie Maguire

I'm sorry about that. You're right. The file is too big. It's a pdf. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Freddie, try this: http://www.uploading.com/

[rhettyeakley]

"The only reason you wouldn't applaud him is if you are on the other side of the issue, imo."

C'mon Leon, you know me better than that, or at least I thought you would. I hope you aren't implying that I (or anyone else Freddy has called out like Corey, Barry, etc.) am on the side of thieves. I wholeheartedly agree that finding stolen material is for the good of the hobby.

That being said, I don't agree with the tactic of throwing items that are "allegedly" stolen or where there is NO PROOF of having come from the NYPL and possibly tainting an item that is fine is the way to go about this. If I was the owner of the Harry Wright Randall cabinet pictured above, and it didn't come from the Spalding collection, I would be really bothered by this type of thread. Seems like a bit of a witch hunt.

-Rhett

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

"The only reason you wouldn't applaud him is if you are on the other side of the issue, imo."

C'mon Leon, you know me better than that, or at least I thought you would. I hope you aren't implying that I (or anyone else Freddy has called out like Corey, Barry, etc.) am on the side of thieves. I wholeheartedly agree that finding stolen material is for the good of the hobby.

That being said, I don't agree with the tactic of throwing items that are "allegedly" stolen or where there is NO PROOF of having come from the NYPL and possibly tainting an item that is fine is the way to go about this. If I was the owner of the Harry Wright Randall cabinet pictured above, and it didn't come from the Spalding collection, I would be really bothered by this type of thread. Seems like a bit of a witch hunt.

-Rhett

I don't agree with a lot of the things on the board....so we can agree on that....I do agree too that if I owned that cabinet then I would probably not be happy IF I did not have provenance back before 1979. If not, then ......I dunno.....

[Leon]

This list was given to me by Freddie....sorry for the way they came out but it's the best I could do.....

[canjond]

Interesting to see the Jordan & Co. items on the list. I can recall one or two of those coming up for auction in the past few years. I imagine there can't be that many known to exist?

[19cbb]

Originally Posted by canjond

Interesting to see the Jordan & Co. items on the list. I can recall one or two of those coming up for auction in the past few years. I imagine there can't be that many known to exist?

I remember seeing the 4 NYPL Jordan & Co. CDVs while visiting the library. I think there were 2 Sam Wright's and one each of Crossley and Hammond. All of them had the old NYPL rubber stamp mark on the back.

The one I sold at auction in 2004 was never part of the NYPL... in fact at the time it was a different pose from the ones known and was incorrectly ID'd at first. I think a similar example appeared a couple of years later.

Here's my ex-jordan in raw state prior to encapsulation. (Sorry about the watermarks)




Although the Harry and Sam Wright 'Anthony CDV' cited on the stolen material report is not unique, I remember seeing a copy at public auction that looked pretty suspicious because it had the same paper clip mark like the one from the NYPL.

I need to check those catalogs again.

[barrysloate]

I've sold three Jordan and Co. in the last few years and all had good provenance. I can offer details if anyone cares.

And I wanted to add that like Jimmy, I went to the NYPL in 2005 to do some research before I sold my first two. I also saw the four he cited- two Sam Wrights, a Crossley, and a Hammond. I recall that the Crossley was an alternate pose to the one I had.

[Freddie Maguire]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I've sold three Jordan and Co. in the last few years and all had good provenance. I can offer details if anyone cares.

And I wanted to add that like Jimmy, I went to the NYPL in 2005 to do some research before I sold my first two. I also saw the four he cited- two Sam Wrights, a Crossley, and a Hammond. I recall that the Crossley was an alternate pose to the one I had.

This is the back of the Harry Wright with Sam Wright CDV with the paper clip mark noted in this forum.

It is interesting to note that it does not have a traditional NYPL stamp. It is in fact, unstamped-not every item in the collection was stamped.

It's important to note that when you guys are looking at the designation "unidentified cricket player. (Jordan and Co.) 4 photographs of 4." That means that 4 different specimens are actually missing from the Spalding Collection.

The other ones you are referring to are accounted for in the inventory.

That being said and considering the staggering rarity of these CDV's, where are the 4 missing ones and what is the likelihood that Jordans on the market are stolen from NYPL? Where did the Jordans that have been sold come from? This isn't meant to be an accusation-it just needs to be asked. Mr. Sloate said he had some provenance info on these. I think it should be posted.

[Freddie Maguire]

When talking about "allegedly stolen Spaldings" how can you top one that sports an official baseball transaction letter with a "dark and bold" signature of Spalding himself?

I wonder if while David Hunt is "working closely with the FBI" he reveals the consignor of this one.

How long has Grandma been cleaning this attic of hers? This sale was in 2000.

This letter to Harry Wright fits neatly in the scrapbook that the NYPL still has: http://www.huntauctions.com/LIVE/ima...m=722&lot_qual

[oldjudge]

Five years ago I purchased an autographed Stevens cabinet of Cap Anson from SCP. I was later told by Lew Lipset and Rob Lifson that it was from the NYPL collection so I returned it to SCP with instructions to them to return it to the NYPL. I, however, do not see this cabinet on the list. Is the list complete and, by the way, was the cabinet returned? At the same time SCP had sold another cabinet, a signed Wright, to another collector. I notified that collector and he returned that cabinet to SCP. Was that cabinet returned?

[19cbb]

Originally Posted by Freddie Maguire

[IMG]

It's important to note that when you guys are looking at the designation "unidentified cricket player. (Jordan and Co.) 4 photographs of 4." That means that 4 different specimens are actually missing from the Spalding Collection.

The other ones you are referring to are accounted for in the inventory.

I think that's incorrect.

In the original january 1922 inventory list (NYPL bulletin 26) there were only 4 and no more.

Description in 1922 under 'Pictorial Material' at the end of the inventory:

"unidentified cricket player. (Jordan and Co.) 4 photographs of 4."

It looks to me that the NYPL made a mistake and thought the 4 cards were missing in 1987 when they were in fact there all the time.

Those are 2 Sam Wrights, one Crossley and a Hammond.

Just for the record, my 'Jordan' example was found in an album with other new york area photographs, not related to baseball or cricket in any way, or at least that's what I thought at the moment.

Thank the lord that mine wasn't stolen because the seller (which had nothing to do with the hobby o industry) ended up receiving a $25 winning bid from me in public auction.

[barrysloate]

Mr. Maguire- Here is the provenance I have:

In January, 2008 I auctioned a Crossley that was consigned to me by a woman in the midwest named Martha, who sold on ebay under the name mamabroker. I bring this up because she posted several times on the board and some may remember her. Her son had purchased a CdV album on ebay and this one was part of it. She tried selling it herself but pulled it when she had too many offers to close the auction. I spoke with her directly and she ultimately consigned it to me. I have no reason to doubt her story.

In March, 2005, I sold a Hammond and a Crossley in a fixed price sale. These were consigned by a very close friend who is practically a partner of mine. In the early 1990's he was putting together a cricket collection and had forgotten about these until he sat down in 2004 and rediscovered them. He recalls purchasing them for next to nothing, something like $15 each, at a photography show. I likewise have no reason to doubt this story based on our twenty five year friendship. While we don't know how the photo dealer got them, it's a little hard to imagine that someone would risk stealing them to sell them for a few dollars each. Back then nobody even knew their significance.

That's my story, and what I know about the three CdV's.

[canjond]

Barry - FYI I had forgotten you sold one of the Jordans (or 3). That being said, when I first observed Jordans on the list, I wasn't implying that yours were from the collection - sorry f it seemed as so. I thought that was an interesting thing to be on the list because I don't recall that many floating around so may be easier to identify.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[barrysloate]

Not a problem Jon.

[Freddie Maguire]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Mr. Maguire- Here is the provenance I have:

In January, 2008 I auctioned a Crossley that was consigned to me by a woman in the midwest named Martha...I have no reason to doubt her story.

In March, 2005, I sold a Hammond and a Crossley in a fixed price sale...

I appreciate you putting that up there Mr. Sloate. Work like this only improves al of our ability to nail down where the stolen items are.

It sure looks like there may be a mistake on the list. But it also look likes they have 5 Jordan's-they have an extra Sam Wright which is identified.

It makes you wonder when the Lifson description from the 2000 sale of the Harry Wright card says "the Harry Wright card offered in this lot was in fact the example saved by Harry Wright for his personal collection" where this personal collection came from. He says it "surfaced in California in 1998". This must have been some collection.

[barrysloate]

It does also seem to me that the listing is in error, since at least four cards are still in the Spalding Collection.

The Harry Wright CdV originated from a Wright family album auctioned by Butterfield and Butterfield, if memory serves. REA was the second person to auction it individually, but the first to recognize its significance. The first seller noted the ticket information on the back, but not the history behind it.

[Freddie Maguire]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Five years ago I purchased an autographed Stevens cabinet of Cap Anson from SCP. I was later told by Lew Lipset and Rob Lifson that it was from the NYPL collection so I returned it to SCP with instructions to them to return it to the NYPL. I, however, do not see this cabinet on the list. Is the list complete and, by the way, was the cabinet returned? At the same time SCP had sold another cabinet, a signed Wright, to another collector. I notified that collector and he returned that cabinet to SCP. Was that cabinet returned?

I've been told that Jim Stinson was offering that exact same Anson (Stevens), the Wright (AG Taylor) and a Nick Young back in 2003.

[oldjudge]

Freddie--Where does it show that they were NYPL pieces?

[19cbb]

According to the 1987 inventory list provided by Freddie Maguire, only the Anson by Falk was missing at the time.

The 1922 inventory just lists another Anson, without citing the photographer, which I suspect is the Stevens.

Here's a link to the 'Stevens' Anson image that is currently hosted in the NYPL digital library... Not sure if this is a scan of the original or a copy.

http://tinyurl.com/komys2

Btw, the 1987 list has some mistakes like the Jordan and Co. examples which in fact are still part of the collection.

I'll try to make a visit to the NYPL prints and photo dept. in mid September and cross check the original 1922 inventory and the 1987 one which they have by now.

If someone is planning a visit before then, ask the photo room staff (room 308) to provide you the updated inventory list. It's a blue bounded book.

[oldjudge]

Jimmy--That is an image of the Stevens cabinet but not the one I had. The one I had was in very nice shape with an A. C. Anson signature on the back. I had posted an image of it in a thread in 2004 but, although the thread is in the archives, the image is gone (Leon--can this be retrieved?). The cabinet had a Letter of Authenticity from Mike Gutierez which I still may have.

[Leon]

Sorry but on the old board those pics expired after about a week. I know of no way to retrieve them UNLESS they were NOT hosted in the Network54 temp files, then they would still be up though. So, if it's not there now I have no way of recovering it (that I am aware of). This new board is a different story......regards

[oldjudge]

If I have it stored at home I will post the image

[Freddie Maguire]

1. It's an A & G Taylor, Boston from the NYPL "Missing list"
2. I sure wish Lew Lipset pictured the back on this one. He says, "The rear is clean".

A dealer may have had this one in a group with two other "alleged stolen Spaldings" of Nick Young and Cap Anson. I wonder if "cleaned" in the description might have been more accurate.

[Freddie Maguire]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Five years ago I purchased an autographed Stevens cabinet of Cap Anson from SCP. I was later told by Lew Lipset and Rob Lifson that it was from the NYPL collection so I returned it...At the same time SCP had sold another cabinet, a signed Wright, to another collector. I notified that collector and he returned that cabinet to SCP. Was that cabinet returned?

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Jimmy--That is an image of the Stevens cabinet but not the one I had. The one I had was in very nice shape with an A. C. Anson signature on the back...

All I know is that I've been told that all of them are from NYPL collection and in fact the Nick Young in that group was inscribed "Yours Truly N.E. Young January 6, 1888. Which matches exactly the missing inscription.

Also see: http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...7&postcount=15

[prewarsports]

FYI

Thar Bridgeport photo is not from the NYPL which is why threads like this can be dangerous without proof. I sold that one during the Summer of 2008 and it was from a find on ebay in late 2007 that had nothing to do with Chadwick at all but was part of the estate of a minor league teammate of O'Rourke and his son who is also in the photo. Somewhere I have the name of the teammate. Aside from the fact that I know the provenance of the piece and where it came from, it also was fresh to the market in late 2007 and sold in 2008 and as you say the actual photo was recovered in early 2007 by the library. I applaud your efforts, but you have the wrong photo pictured there. On the bright side, you dont have to worry about any inscription being obliterated because that is the wrong photo and never came from the NYPL.

[Freddie Maguire]

This "$35,000 Beauty" might be my last gift to the board for a while. Might anybody know where this "EAGLE" has landed?

Truthfully, I have to say that I'm a bit disappointed by the lack of posts on the Spalding collection thread. There has been quite a bit of support for the hunt-even a few personal messages-but thusfar the experts on this board have decided to post nothing.

So, how about a little homework assignment for you good men interested in lending a helping hand.

What say you get those scanners ready and head to your own libraries and do some digging for the sake of the hobby?

I'm taking into account the concerns of some board members worried about unwarranted accusations flying. Therefore, here are some cinch locks:

Assignment #1- Post a scan of page 7 of "The Dodgers" by Frank Graham 1948
-Post a scan of p. 40 and 41 of Irving Leitner's BASEBALL: Diamond in the Rough 1972
-Post a scan of p.37 of Robert Smith's BASEBALL IN AMERICA 1961
-Post a scan of p14 and 15 of the MASTRO Nov 2000 Auction
-Post a scan of p.20 of John Durant's THE STORY OF BASEBALL

These are just a few more dots for you. This is your mission, should you decide to accept it. Good luck.

[benjulmag]

Thank you for posting this thread. It is very interesting and hopefully will lead to some good. Though, I do agree with an earlier post that we must be very careful not to cast false accusations on "clean" items. That is not fair to their owners. Sometimes the perception can become the reality and, with no clear evidence an item might be stolen other than matching an item on the NYPL missing list, I'm not entirely comfortable with displaying such an item.

Your knowledge of 19th century baseball memorabilia is quite impressive, as is your knowledge of past events. In fact, in my 25 years of collecting 19th century memorabilia, only one other name comes to mind of one whose knowledge might be the equal.

While we're on the subject of doing good for the hobby, I would like to respectfully suggest we expand the scope of our mission to include counterfeit items. As I'm sure you know, that is another area that presents quite a problem and where well-intentioned hobbyists can suffer serious financial loss. Maybe we can start a thread listing/showing all items discovered to be counterfeit, both to warn future prospective purchasers to stay away from them as well as to highlight what a sinister mind can accomplish with sufficient expertise and motivation. I would like to suggest that for those items we list/display, we also include their known chain of ownership. That way, if enough items are described, maybe there will be sufficient overlap of identity such that, to use your words, "our detective work will even lead us to the culprits."