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  #161  
Old 01-12-2019, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by t206fix View Post
I think this argument will go on and on until we define what a t206 really is. Wikipedia notes:
The tobacco card set known as T206 was issued from 1909 to 1911 in cigarette and loose tobacco packs through 16 different brands owned by the American Tobacco Company. It is a landmark set in the history of baseball card collecting, due to its size and rarity, and the quality of its color lithographs.

Is there a different definition? Are we arguing what Burdick thought a t206 was, and if so, case closed, he said "no".

When I was 12, I bought boxes of Cookie Crunch trying to complete this stupid set... Do we say that to have a complete 1984 topps set, you need to have this set because it was produced in 1984 by Topps? No, because we have a definition of what the 1984 topps set is comprised of...


So what makes a t206? If we answer that, we can stop arguing, or maybe, we just like arguing.
Good point Tony.
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  #162  
Old 01-12-2019, 11:34 AM
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What is a T206?
  • A card that was printed by ALC between the years 1909-11? or,
  • A card that was issued inside packages of ATC branded tobacco products between the years 1909-11? or,
  • both?

ALC is just a printer, and probably had a few clients, so it can't just be that they were printed by ALC because they could have been issued by another tobacco company. T206 cards must have the same issuer, and in this case it was ATC.

If the Coupon cards were printed by ALC, and issued/distributed by ATC inside tobacco products, between the years 1909 and 1911, then they should be T206.

Is there a definitive answer to any of those three questions at this point?
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  #163  
Old 01-12-2019, 12:28 PM
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Default If it looks like an ATC brand, it's probably an ATC brand, therefore a T206...

MichelaiTorres83;1844471]Where does it say that date is a criteria?

What I am saying is Coupon was released most likely during the 1910-11 based off everything we know, and probably should be lumped in as the 17th ATC brand produced by American Lithographic, which would mean it is more closely related to those 16 brands that have been designated T206, and therefore should be part of the T206 set. It is far closer to the T206 group than the 1914 & 19 Coupon Type 2, 3, with glossy finish, blue lettering, and different minor league players featured in the set that are not featured in the T206 set. I think Burdick simply lumped Type 1's because of the name Coupon even though the Type 1's are way closer to the sixteen 1909-11 T206 Brands than even they are with the 1914 & 1919 Coupon Brands.


What we know :

1. It looks just like the other 16 ATC brands Burdick included in T206.
2. According to Lew Lipset's Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards, the entire Coupon group consist of 350 series.
3. Also, according to Lipset's EOBBC, the 20 Southern Leaguers featured in Coupon were issued with the 350 series subjects.
4. The Coupon has a Size variance, just like the other T206 brand, American Beauty. (Depth/Width)

Side Note :

*The T211 Red Sun set was released in New Orleans (early Spring due to dating of players in minor and majors) and the intended 2nd series was not released. Perhaps that was due to the ATC break up in May of 1911. If the T206 brands seized ball card production in 1911 from the ATC break up, then most likely the 2nd Series for T211 never got off the ground for the same reasons. This could be a likely reason for Coupons being in limited numbers if it is from the 350 series only, released at back end of 1910, early 1911. (In previous posts, I was wondering why Red Sun didn't release their 2nd series and also drawing a parallel with Coupon as 2 sets in New Orleans that didn't do very well in terms of cards released, and I suggested there was some event that disrupted that 2nd series of Red Suns, as well as more Coupons being released with packs/cartons of cigarettes. The only event I can find around that timeline is the ATC break up which was obviously a big deal as it disrupted the whole industry and T206 cards as we know them stopped in 1911. Apologies for the ramble...)

* More Info - In 1915 Category 4 Hurricane hit New Orleans... http://www.neworleansbar.org/uploads...20Irby_1-2.pdf
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Last edited by DixieBaseball; 01-12-2019 at 01:35 PM. Reason: Additional T211 info...
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  #164  
Old 01-12-2019, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DixieBaseball View Post
MichelaiTorres83;1844471]Where does it say that date is a criteria?

What I am saying is Coupon was released most likely during the 1910-11 based off everything we know, and probably should be lumped in as the 17th ATC brand produced by American Lithographic, which would mean it is more closely related to those 16 brands that have been designated T206, and therefore should be part of the T206 set. It is far closer to the T206 group than the 1914 & 19 Coupon Type 2, 3, with glossy finish, blue lettering, and different minor league players featured in the set that are not featured in the T206 set. I think Burdick simply lumped Type 1's because of the name Coupon even though the Type 1's are way closer to the sixteen 1909-11 T206 Brands than even they are with the 1914 & 1919 Coupon Brands.


What we know :

1. It looks just like the other 16 ATC brands Burdick included in T206.
2. According to Lew Lipset's Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards, the entire Coupon group consist of 350 series.3. Also, according to Lipset's EOBBC, the 20 Southern Leaguers featured in Coupon were issued with the 350 series subjects. 4. The Coupon has a Size variance, just like the other T206 brand, American Beauty. (Depth/Width)

Side Note :
*The T211 Red Sun set was released in New Orleans (early Spring due to dating of players in minor and majors) and the intended 2nd series was not released. Perhaps that was due to the ATC break up in May of 1911. If the T206 brands seized ball card production in 1911 from the ATC break up, then most likely the 2nd Series for T211 never got off the ground for the same reasons. This could be a likely reason for Coupons being in limited numbers if it is from the 350 series only, released at back end of 1910, early 1911. (In previous posts, I was wondering why Red Sun didn't release their 2nd series and also drawing a parallel with Coupon as 2 sets in New Orleans that didn't do very well in terms of cards released, and I suggested there was some event that disrupted that 2nd series of Red Suns, as well as more Coupons being released with packs/cartons of cigarettes. The only event I can find around that timeline is the ATC break up which was obviously a big deal as it disrupted the whole industry and T206 cards as we know them stopped in 1911. Apologies for the ramble...)
The Southern Leaguers are 150/350 subjects.

img653.jpg

Last edited by Pat R; 01-12-2019 at 01:06 PM.
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  #165  
Old 01-12-2019, 01:07 PM
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Default "Southern Leaguers " vs The Real Southern Leaguer's in the Southern Association

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
The Southern Leaguers are 150/350 subjects.
Pat - Are you referring to just the 20 Southern Association players in the Coupon set as 150/350 series or are you referring to the 48 players that are referred to as "Southern Leaguer's" in the T206 set? The Texas League, South Atlantic League, and Virginia league are commonly lumped in that verbiage as "Southern Leaguers" when in fact they actually are not. The 20 players featured in the Coupon set are from the Southern Association.

Also, maybe you or Ted can clear up what Lew Lipset meant when he said "It is not surprising to find this entire Coupon Series to consist of 350 series subjects."

Pat - What do you make of the Texas, Virginia, and South Atlantic League "SL" players not being present in this set, and only the 20 Southern Association players present which I believe were 350 series only, correct !?

Edited to add, if the 150 subjects are present what does this prove? It's still in the 1909-11 time frame. Does it imply there could have been more of the 150 subjects? Are all 68 cards featured as 350 subjects ? Did Lipset miss this? What correlation or theory are you trying to prove?
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Last edited by DixieBaseball; 01-12-2019 at 01:11 PM. Reason: 150 subjects
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  #166  
Old 01-12-2019, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DixieBaseball View Post
Pat - Are you referring to just the 20 Southern Association players in the Coupon set as 150/350 series or are you referring to the 48 players that are referred to as "Southern Leaguer's" in the T206 set? The Texas League, South Atlantic League, and Virginia league are commonly lumped in that verbiage as "Southern Leaguers" when in fact they actually are not. The 20 players featured in the Coupon set are from the Southern Association.

Also, maybe you or Ted can clear up what Lew Lipset meant when he said "It is not surprising to find this entire Coupon Series to consist of 350 series subjects."

Pat - What do you make of the Texas, Virginia, and South Atlantic League "SL" players not being present in this set, and only the 20 Southern Association players present which I believe were 350 series only, correct !?
Edited to add, if the 150 subjects are present what does this prove? It's still in the 1909-11 time frame. Does it imply there could have been more of the 150 subjects? Are all 68 cards featured as 350 subjects ? Did Lipset miss this? What correlation or theory are you trying to prove?
Jeremy, the 20 subjects were printed with Hindu and possibly Old Mill during the 150
series printing so they are 150/350 subjects.

img650.jpg

Last edited by Pat R; 01-12-2019 at 01:21 PM.
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  #167  
Old 01-12-2019, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
Jeremy, the 20 subjects were printed with Hindu and possibly Old Mill during the 150
series printing so they are 150/350 subjects.

Attachment 340350

Gotcha - Thanks for the newspaper ad info! So, that dates Coupons from 1909-1911 instead of 1910-11 as I originally thought.... (assuming 350 series was printed in 1910-11)

Do you know if the 20 Southern Association players were all printed during the 350 series? Perhaps that is what Lipset meant...
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Last edited by DixieBaseball; 01-12-2019 at 01:24 PM.
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  #168  
Old 01-12-2019, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by DixieBaseball View Post
Gotcha - Thanks for the newspaper ad info! So, that dates Coupons from 1909-1911 instead of 1910-11 as I originally thought.... (assuming 350 series was printed in 1910-11)

Do you know if the 20 Southern Association players were all printed during the 350 series? Perhaps that is what Lipset meant...
No the 350 only subjects in the coupons eliminate them from the 1909 date.

Here's the thread I posted when I found the Old Mill ad

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...light=Old+Mill

Last edited by Pat R; 01-12-2019 at 01:28 PM.
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  #169  
Old 01-12-2019, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
No the 350 only subjects in the coupons eliminate them from the 1909 date.

Here's the thread I posted when I found the Old Mill ad

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...light=Old+Mill
Ok, so back to my original theory 1910-11 !?
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  #170  
Old 01-12-2019, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DixieBaseball View Post
Ok, so back to my original theory 1910-11 !?
There is no proof on the date but it's speculated in early 1910.
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