Happy Festivus! Airing of Grievances 2023 Edition

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

My complaint is that the major auction houses don’t have enough auctions. I recall at least five or six days last year when I awoke to find I had nothing to bid on. Damn inconsiderate of those folks. Hopefully, they can correct that in 2024.

Good one, Jay!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Eric72

“Make me an offer.”

Okay, I offer to consider buying your card if you put a price on it.

I have never understood why that bothers people. If you know what you want to pay, make an offer, no?

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have never understood why that bothers people. If you know what you want to pay, make an offer, no?

In my personal experience, people in the "make me an offer" camp have been laborious to deal with.

Likely a small sample size; however, personal experiences tend to shape one's personal opinions.

[oldjudge]

Peter--I think the reason is that making the first move conveys information to the other party. If one is willing to sell an item for $X but the potential buyer indicates he is willing to pay $X+ then the seller has been advantaged by not making the first move. The same is obviously true if the seller shows an offer before the buyer has bid.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have never understood why that bothers people. If you know what you want to pay, make an offer, no?

It bothers me because, if you really want to sell it, put a price on it. I'm not making an offer on anything. If you're trying to sell it, price it. Otherwise you're just trying to get rich.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I have never understood why that bothers people. If you know what you want to pay, make an offer, no?

How many other marketplaces work like that? Not many; not even a few.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Peter--I think the reason is that making the first move conveys information to the other party. If one is willing to sell an item for $X but the potential buyer indicates he is willing to pay $X+ then the seller has been advantaged by not making the first move. The same is obviously true if the seller shows an offer before the buyer has bid.

Well I am assuming Eric or whoever it is, is savvy enough to start with a low offer. If someone has a card I want, I can't imagine passing up a chance just because I'm asked to make the first move.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

How many other marketplaces work like that? Not many; not even a few.

It's atypical for sure, but so what?
How many other marketplaces have 90 percent of the items priced at levels nobody will pay? Those sellers put a price on their items, does that make people feel better about offering?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Eric72

In my personal experience, people in the "make me an offer" camp have been laborious to deal with.

Likely a small sample size; however, personal experiences tend to shape one's personal opinions.

As opposed to someone with an absurdly high price?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Peter--I think the reason is that making the first move conveys information to the other party. If one is willing to sell an item for $X but the potential buyer indicates he is willing to pay $X+ then the seller has been advantaged by not making the first move. The same is obviously true if the seller shows an offer before the buyer has bid.

True, but if no one makes the first move, nothing gets sold.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As opposed to someone with an absurdly high price?

I tend to ignore absurdly high prices.

Going back to the "make me an offer" tactic:

I used to try to work with people who chose that route. In the vast majority of those encounters, I wound up buying nothing and spending lots of time doing so.

Nearly everything I chase is fairly common. For example, the last card I picked up was a '56 Ted Williams in VG-EX. When I was looking for that card, I simply passed by any listing (post, showcase, etc.) where the card wasn't priced. There are plenty of copies for sale at any given moment.

I'm getting too old to waste time with people who also want to squeeze every possible penny out of me. Now, if y'all will excuse me, I'm gonna go outside and yell at some clouds.

[HercDriver]

I remember a few years ago, a member here posted something I was interested in, with the "make me an offer" tag. I responded with, "so it's a reverse auction, right?" He got all offended, but that's what that is, basically. I haven't seen the douche muppet on here lately, so maybe he's gone now.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by HercDriver

I remember a few years ago, a member here posted something I was interested in, with the "make me an offer" tag. I responded with, "so it's a reverse auction, right?" He got all offended, but that's what that is, basically. I haven't seen the douche muppet on here lately, so maybe he's gone now.

A reverse auction is pretty much what we all see on BST: you start your item at a certain amount and then keep lowering the price until it's sold. Although technically, a reverse auction format should tell you in advance when the price will drop.





Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

My complaint is that the major auction houses don’t have enough auctions. I recall at least five or six days last year when I awoke to find I had nothing to bid on. Damn inconsiderate of those folks. Hopefully, they can correct that in 2024.

Mic drop!

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

True, but if no one makes the first move, nothing gets sold.

Nor does the earth get repopulated with humans.

Brian

[jingram058]

Graded cards for someone who is a collector is stupid. How do you display a bunch of slabs in a way that doesn't look like a bank vault rather than a collection?

If your thing is graded cards, then you aren't someone who collects cards in a hobby. If you collect graded cards, just come out, get it over with, and say it... you're are investor. You know nothing about the ballplayers, the era in which they played, or any of that. You care about what your cards are monetarily worth. You get all excited if you discover, God forbid, a wrinkle or a crease or an ink drop, or...cardiac arrest here... it's trimmed!

I couldn't care any less about that, because, for me, it's a hobby. I don't even care if my cards are counterfeit fakes, because if they are, someone went to an awful lot of trouble, more than the actual manufacturer ever did.

[Vintagedeputy]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Graded cards for someone who is a collector is stupid. How do you display a bunch of slabs in a way that doesn't look like a bank vault rather than a collection?

If your thing is graded cards, then you aren't someone who collects cards in a hobby. If you collect graded cards, just come out, get it over with, and say it... you're are investor. You know nothing about the ballplayers, the era in which they played, or any of that. You care about what your cards are monetarily worth. You get all excited if you discover, God forbid, a wrinkle or a crease or an ink drop, or...cardiac arrest here... it's trimmed!
.

Absolutely not true in every case, because I can attest to being the exception. I love my collection graded, I can’t tell you what any card sells for nor do I care, and I grade Authentics, 1’s, 2’s, etc. I’ll slab a card that I paid $5 for. Don’t care.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Graded cards for someone who is a collector is stupid. How do you display a bunch of slabs in a way that doesn't look like a bank vault rather than a collection?

If your thing is graded cards, then you aren't someone who collects cards in a hobby. If you collect graded cards, just come out, get it over with, and say it... you're are investor. You know nothing about the ballplayers, the era in which they played, or any of that. You care about what your cards are monetarily worth. You get all excited if you discover, God forbid, a wrinkle or a crease or an ink drop, or...cardiac arrest here... it's trimmed!

I couldn't care any less about that, because, for me, it's a hobby. I don't even care if my cards are counterfeit fakes, because if they are, someone went to an awful lot of trouble, more than the actual manufacturer ever did.

That's a rather unkind view of other collectors. People can collect whatever and however they want, whether it is raw, slabbed, modern, vintage...whatever. Just because I don't like it doesn't make them less valid as collectors. As long as they treat fellow collectors with respect and have fun with it, it's all good.

A card



I guess I must be into stupid stuff since I've owned two graded copies of this card. Couldn't just be that I enjoyed it so much that when I sold the first one I immediately started looking for its replacement...

ETA: nothing is wrong with being an investor either. Just don't be a douche.

[G1911]

I don’t see how any of the 3 groups - investors, collectors, or investor-collectors - are better than any of the other groups. The investors throw tantrums and attack if a collector doesn’t put the fiscal interest of investors over their own collecting, the collectors are bitter and angry at the investors and do much the same thing. It also seems to me that selling and buying cards is a painless and easy experience 99.9% of the time on either end, but that is evidently a minority view. And thus we have 67 posts in the holiday bitchfest thread and 6 in the Merry Christmas thread .

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Graded cards for someone who is a collector is stupid.

Narrow take.

Just because I consider myself more a "collector" than an investor, does that mean I'm supposed to just totally throw caution to the wind with my resources and disregard what anything in my collection might be worth?

I have brokerage accounts and savings that are the bulk of my "investments", on which I hope to be able to retire one day. I'm not one of those counting on cardboard or PSA slabs to do that for me in 20+ years. But even if the cards are largely a fun thing for me as a hobby, clearly they still cost money to obtain. If I decide to get rid of something one day or shift direction as a collector, the monetary value of some of my collection might be something of interest to me, even if only for the purposes of acquiring new cards - maybe ya think? To be ignorant of such things as a collector might be the opposite of being a hardcore investor, but I would argue being totally ignorant of value at some point - especially if you are going to possess valuable cards - just makes you a dumb collector. Given all the scandals of late like slabgate, altered cards in numbered slabs and the like coming out of Covid - there is a certain price point by now that I will not buy a card above if it's raw, if I cannot physically inspect it in-person first. That's just common sense.

Maybe you don't care about authenticity, sorry; but I do; that's the entire freaking point. I recently was able to acquire an (admittedly low grade, but authentic) 1963 Topps Pete Rose RC. Why in a million years at this point would I ever buy a card like that raw online? That would make zero sense - again assuming I give a flip about authenticity. First, even in low grade - it's what I consider a fairly valuable (north of $500 anyway...) card. Second, this is one of the most notoriously faked / counterfeited cards of all time. Why take the chance, why waste my time? Yes even with crappy raw scans, I can generally tell if something is genuine or not online, I've been around the block enough times to know what to look for. But even if ebay would stand behind me, or some other entity - why would I risk going through the hassle of being out real money and having to wait on a refund or judgement when I could just buy a slab?

Sure, PSA and SGC and others have made mistakes, have made BIG mistakes, and undoubtedly will continue to do so. But once the dust settles from all of that is the more or less undisputed fact that they also get more than 95% of it RIGHT.

If you don't like slabs, or like I used to in the past - don't like the look, but can appreciate the limited value that the service provides even if you bust them later - who freaking cares? I wouldn't disparage you for hating slabs, or buying only raw. The more money you spend on raw cards, the more risk you take on. But risk tolerance is a hugely personal thing - whether you are a collector, an investor - or some combination of both - which yes sorry, is entirely possible and happens.

Maybe don't worry so much about how those different from you "hobby"...

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Don't drink and post!

[jingram058]

Well, I am totally not surprised by the responses. I would expect the regular posters to respond the way they have. net54, while I love it dearly, is what I would call "the palace of graded cards". That's how I see it. We had a saying in the Navy, "perception is reality".

There are only 2 reasons, and 2 reasons alone, for having your cards graded: you are concerned about condition, which equates to monetary value, and/or you are concerned about authenticity.

I like having my cards, and I like handling them from time to time. Likewise, the memorabilia that accompanies them. They are a direct link to both the era they come from, and to my very happy childhood.

I don't care about card grading. I am not worried in the slightest about my cards value, condition, or authenticity. They are fine for me. I doubt seriously if they are fake, but if they are, they were so well done that I can't tell. My wife and daughter will be fine if I pass away. For personal, selfish reasons, I hope and pray I go first. They will be financially fine, from my converted Veterans Group Life Insurance to real estate to health care. Not from baseball cards. They know their potential worth, but beyond that, very little interest. They both love modern day baseball, but aside from Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth, the rest of baseball history beyond the 1970s is lost on them. So you guys can get my cards and other stuff from them if I up and croak. Feel free to have them graded.

[jchcollins]

James, that's all well and good as long as you would concede the rest of us are not "stupid" simply because we hobby different from you.

N54 is hardly the only haven for graded cards. Look everywhere else around you...eBay, shops, shows, auction houses. They've been around for quite some time and are likely to stay. Whether you or I or anyone else likes it or not...

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jingram058

Well, I am totally not surprised by the responses. I would expect the regular posters to respond the way they have. net54, while I love it dearly, is what I would call "the palace of graded cards". That's how I see it. We had a saying in the Navy, "perception is reality".

There are only 2 reasons, and 2 reasons alone, for having your cards graded: you are concerned about condition, which equates to monetary value, and/or you are concerned about authenticity.

I like having my cards, and I like handling them from time to time. Likewise, the memorabilia that accompanies them. They are a direct link to both the era they come from, and to my very happy childhood.

I don't care about card grading. I am not worried in the slightest about my cards value, condition, or authenticity. They are fine for me. I doubt seriously if they are fake, but if they are, they were so well done that I can't tell. My wife and daughter will be fine if I pass away. For personal, selfish reasons, I hope and pray I go first. They will be financially fine, from my converted Veterans Group Life Insurance to real estate to health care. Not from baseball cards. They know their potential worth, but beyond that, very little interest. They both love modern day baseball, but aside from Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth, the rest of baseball history beyond the 1970s is lost on them. So you guys can get my cards and other stuff from them if I up and croak. Feel free to have them graded.

I just don't see this population you are describing. There are plenty of pure collectors here. I have never submitted a card for grading. I have cracked out probably north of 1,000 by now. There are several OBC low grade raw guys here. There are plenty of other raw or not-money focused collectors posting. I email, call or text at least 20 from people here regularly about pure collecting of raw cards. The most viewed thread of all time, by far, on the post-war board here is about print variants in which 90% of the cards shown cost less than $7.

I also hope the market will have a true collapse, as it will make cards cheaper for collectors like me. I understand a couple of the more intense or immature investors throw a very public tantrum any time it's said (50/50 odds we'll have a new thread tomorrow whining a collector isn't putting someone else's investment portfolio first) but most seem to understand collectors and investors are doing two different things that are advantaged by different market movements. Most people have to care at some level though; most of us don't have a guaranteed retirement and families who are fine no matter what happens to our stuff. Maybe I will have to care someday if things change or if I get really sick - 99% of the population is just one run of very bad luck away from having to scrape by or is scraping by already. I am conscious it is a position of financial privilege that I have been able to collect some cards at all in my life. Not all of us have that fortunate guaranteed future you seem to have. That's a wonderful thing, good for you, but most of us are not in that boat.

Most investors still know their stuff. I haven't come across anyone in card land who "knows nothing about the ballplayers" as you claimed. As a 100% collector and 0% investor, some of my favorite people in the hobby are in the investor class. A person need not have the same goal I do to not be "stupid". In fact we can usually benefit each other - they want money more and I want cards more, so we can usually work a deal out that leaves us both happy and satisfied. I even, dare say, have probably had more help and aid from the investor class in my boxing research projects and surveys than I have had from the true-collector class.

People can have different ends in a hobby and still be decent folk. My way, which seems to effectively be the same as your way, is no better than X or Y's way. There's just a couple extremists on each 'side' that can't stand to hear anything done differently from them. One of the nice things about a hobby like this is you get 100% free choice of how to do it. You can collect, invest, do both, be social and active, or just quietly do things your own way. What another person chooses to do, while interesting because it's my hobby, doesn't really affect me much.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

James, that's all well and good as long as you would concede the rest of us are not "stupid" simply because we hobby different from you.

N54 is hardly the only haven for graded cards. Look everywhere else around you...eBay, shops, shows, auction houses. They've been around for quite some time and are likely to stay. Whether you or I or anyone else likes it or not...

John, I seriously concede that you guys are not stupid.

[jingram058]

Originally Posted by G1911

I just don't see this population you are describing. There are plenty of pure collectors here. I have never submitted a card for grading. I have cracked out probably north of 1,000 by now. There are several OBC low grade raw guys here. There are plenty of other raw or not-money focused collectors posting. I email, call or text at least 20 from people here regularly about pure collecting of raw cards. The most viewed thread of all time, by far, on the post-war board here is about print variants in which 90% of the cards shown cost less than $7.

I also hope the market will have a true collapse, as it will make cards cheaper for collectors like me. I understand a couple of the more intense or immature investors throw a very public tantrum any time it's said (50/50 odds we'll have a new thread tomorrow whining a collector isn't putting someone else's investment portfolio first) but most seem to understand collectors and investors are doing two different things that are advantaged by different market movements. Most people have to care at some level though; most of us don't have a guaranteed retirement and families who are fine no matter what happens to our stuff. Maybe I will have to care someday if things change or if I get really sick - 99% of the population is just one run of very bad luck away from having to scrape by or is scraping by already. I am conscious it is a position of financial privilege that I have been able to collect some cards at all in my life. Not all of us have that fortunate guaranteed future you seem to have. That's a wonderful thing, good for you, but most of us are not in that boat.

Most investors still know their stuff. I haven't come across anyone in card land who "knows nothing about the ballplayers" as you claimed. As a 100% collector and 0% investor, some of my favorite people in the hobby are in the investor class. A person need not have the same goal I do to not be "stupid". In fact we can usually benefit each other - they want money more and I want cards more, so we can usually work a deal out that leaves us both happy and satisfied. I even, dare say, have probably had more help and aid from the investor class in my boxing research projects and surveys than I have had from the true-collector class.

People can have different ends in a hobby and still be decent folk. My way, which seems to effectively be the same as your way, is no better than X or Y's way. There's just a couple extremists on each 'side' that can't stand to hear anything done differently from them. One of the nice things about a hobby like this is you get 100% free choice of how to do it. You can collect, invest, do both, be social and active, or just quietly do things your own way. What another person chooses to do, while interesting because it's my hobby, doesn't really affect me much.

Greg, I truly love your well thought out posts. Thank you, sir.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by HercDriver

I remember a few years ago, a member here posted something I was interested in, with the "make me an offer" tag. I responded with, "so it's a reverse auction, right?" He got all offended, but that's what that is, basically. I haven't seen the douche muppet on here lately, so maybe he's gone now.

Well, I haven't been around as much lately. Maybe I'm the douche muppet. Have no fear douche muppet aficionados, I'm alive and well. Hi Geno.

[HercDriver]

Haha...No, it certainly was not you, Frank!

Cheers,
Geno

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Well, I haven't been around as much lately. Maybe I'm the douche muppet. Have no fear douche muppet aficionados, I'm alive and well. Hi Geno.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by jingram058

John, I seriously concede that you guys are not stupid.

All good. Thanks.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

People who make (usually lowball) offers on eBay items with no OBO option. If I wanted to hear how much less you feel like paying, the OBO option would have been part of the listing. Get lost!

[Lobo Aullando]

Even with OBO, one can set the auto-reject threshold.

Check it for laughs every so often. I had one item that sold for the asking price (which was already at market price) get a ton of offers that were 1/3 to 1/2 the value.

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

People who make (usually lowball) offers on eBay items with no OBO option. If I wanted to hear how much less you feel like paying, the OBO option would have been part of the listing. Get lost!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

People who make (usually lowball) offers on eBay items with no OBO option. If I wanted to hear how much less you feel like paying, the OBO option would have been part of the listing. Get lost!

I am guilty of this just without the lowballing part. I have around a 75% success rate making offers on items without the make offer option in the listing. I don't sell much so I rarely receive them.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by G1911

we have 67 posts in the holiday bitchfest thread and 6 in the Merry Christmas thread .

Complaining is my jam. As holidays go, I am more of a:

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

People who make (usually lowball) offers on eBay items with no OBO option. If I wanted to hear how much less you feel like paying, the OBO option would have been part of the listing. Get lost!

If they ask nicely, this doesn't bother me. However, they typically don't ask nicely.

Me:
List item at $99 with no OBO option.

Message from eBay user:
fourty $$$$ bucks shiped??????????

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

You have that right, Eric. Still, I'm just not a fan of offers in general.

When I think of bartering, I'm more prone to conjure up images of some bazaar halfway around the world. In most retail settings in western civilization, if I offered a fraction of the listed price, I'd be either laughed out the door or yelled at. Why shouldn't this apply to my profession as well? And yes, my saying this does prove me a hypocrite, as I've certainly made offers in my life! Although, in relation to this particular eBay scenario, I do try my best to work with a listed price if there's no OBO or simply move on. I assume the seller has their reasons for no OBO as I have for my items. I remember making far more offers on eBay many years back, before the implementation of the OBO option, but we all did, ergo eBay's introduction of OBO.

[jsfriedm]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

In most retail settings in western civilization, if I offered a fraction of the listed price, I'd be either laughed out the door or yelled at.

A reporter once asked Gandhi what he thought of western civilization. He replied, "I think it would be a good idea."

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by Eric72

If they ask nicely, this doesn't bother me. However, they typically don't ask nicely.

Me:
List item at $99 with no OBO option.

Message from eBay user:
fourty $$$$ bucks shiped??????????

That or my personal favorite from some mouth breather: "HOWMUCH."

[jchcollins]

The OBO on eBay anymore I see as mainly a gesture of goodwill. People like to feel like they are getting some type of discount; it's part of the psychology of buying. So I know what I want to sell something for, I'll list it for a small percentage higher. I can come down to that price on an offer, and the buyer feels like they are winning, or sometimes they just hit the BIN regardless and I sell it for my starting price. That works too...

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

The OBO on eBay anymore I see as mainly a gesture of goodwill. People like to feel like they are getting some type of discount; it's part of the psychology of buying. So I know what I want to sell something for, I'll list it for a small percentage higher. I can come down to that price on an offer, and the buyer feels like they are winning, or sometimes they just hit the BIN regardless and I sell it for my starting price. That works too...

Yeah, like an "offer" of $70 off a card priced at $1,029 (which comps at $800). Then there's $10 shipping AND sales tax. Pass.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

Yeah, like an "offer" of $70 off a card priced at $1,029 (which comps at $800). Then there's $10 shipping AND sales tax. Pass.

The proactive seller offers are different. Would agree I've rarely been on the receiving end of any bargains there.

[Exhibitman]

Just put an auto-reject on the floor price and all of the tire kickers and bottom feeders will be shut out automatically.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Just put an auto-reject on the floor price and all of the tire kickers and bottom feeders will be shut out automatically.

It hasn't stopped them from PMing after their offers are rejected. If only it was that easy.

[jchcollins]

I've (rarely) tried to sell other things on eBay, like used iPhones and expensive watches. The unsolicited offer game is much worse there, in my experience...

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Well, I haven't been around as much lately. Maybe I'm the douche muppet. Have no fear douche muppet aficionados, I'm alive and well. Hi Geno.

Is a douche muppet a collectible?

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Is a douche muppet a collectible?

Only with a certified autograph.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Is a douche muppet a collectible?

That would be one of the few collectibles I'd prefer to own in non-fungible form.

[Beercan collector]

Being somewhat new here I’m surprised how many new members use their first (sometimes only) post to test the waters of an obvious fake card or autograph .

Edit note : I do you not mean to imply all these are scammers It’s certainly possible they joined To ask a honest question , but there’s a strong pattern