The Chicago Cracker Jack Find

[Boccabella]

http://www.sportscollectorsdaily.com...ker-jack-find/

[T205 GB]

Damn if they could only have waited a few more months and brought them to the show that would have been a great find! Why Beckett grading though?

[ruth-gehrig]

Love these stories! Thanks for sharing

[JamesGallo]

Wow that is pretty amazing. It is crazy that people still have no clue that this stuff is worth money. It seems everyone that have 80s and 90s cards thinks they are worth a ton, but the people that have cards 100 years old don't think they are worth anything.

I am not sure Beckett was the best grading company either but it was probably who they contacted first.

James G

[Leon]

I wonder if it is because Beckett owns Goodwin?

Originally Posted by T205 GB

Damn if they could only have waited a few more months and brought them to the show that would have been a great find! Why Beckett grading though?

[samosa4u]

Beckett has a very small market share when it comes to vintage cards. If I was the owner of these Cracker Jacks, I would not have given it to them for encapsulation. I believe that whoever wins these cards will crack them out.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Leon

I wonder if it is because Beckett owns Goodwin?

Possibly. The article just says a friend told him to send them to beckett. My guess is this friend also has limited hobby knowledge but remembered the magazine or Googled something. Too bad their search didn't lead them here first. Cool story though. Hard to believe those cards could have just been sitting in some shoebox for the last 100 years.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Possibly. The article just says a friend told him to send them to beckett. My guess is this friend also has limited hobby knowledge but remembered the magazine or Googled something. Too bad their search didn't lead them here first. Cool story though. Hard to believe those cards could have just been sitting in some shoebox for the last 100 years.

Or the "friend" had an affiliation with Beckett already.

How does it work if one of the winners does crack the slab and submit the card to PSA or SGC, when it comes to the label and the "Chicago Cracker Jack Find" denotation? Would PSA/SGC put that on? If not, I'm guessing there is a small risk of reducing the potential resale price as I think sometimes these labels (Black Swamp Find, etc.) might demand a small premium, right?

[Stonepony]

My guess would be that in a year there won't be many of these cards in a " Chicago find" slab. It would make no difference to me anyway.

[tiger8mush]

So much fuss about the slab. PSA 8, BVG 5, SGC 7 ... its the same beautiful card!

[Republicaninmass]

I always thought it hurt the black swamp cards. People read about it and see so many ultra high grade cards which dessimated the pop report and prices

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

My guess would be that in a year there won't be many of these cards in a " Chicago find" slab. It would make no difference to me anyway.

i think the designation is neat on the slab especially when there is only one of each card. The black swamp find cards- just too many of them and initial excitement has given way to lackluster prices due to flooding of the pop reports as mentioned earlier. That being said, not sure there is much of a premium given to cards from a particular find.

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

So much fuss about the slab. PSA 8, BVG 5, SGC 7 ... its the same beautiful card!

Agreed as far as esthetics go, but if resale is the sole motivator, then slab can make a big difference.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by iowadoc77

Agreed as far as esthetics go, but if resale is the sole motivator, then slab can make a big difference.

For the record I have always thought BVG has done a very good job at grading. Their market values don't usually reflect it though. Regardless, these are a great new find and will do fine.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Leon

I wonder if it is because Beckett owns Goodwin?

From what I have heard, Bill is allowed to send his cards to any of the three major TPG's. However, I do believe Andy B. is as good if not better than anyone at the other grading companies and I'd wager he was the one who graded those cards

Rich

[T_Hamilton]

If cracked and sent to PSA, do you think they will mark "Chicago Cracker Jack Find" on the slab?

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by T_Hamilton

If cracked and sent to PSA, do you think they will mark "Chicago Cracker Jack Find" on the slab?

No. They might if you ask them about it first and submit without cracking though.

[CrackaJackKid]

At least with this find being graded by Beckett I feel the likelihood of card doctoring/altering is very low compared to if they had been graded by PSA. Everyone knows the Stockton find of CJ's were all soaked/steamed right before being graded by PSA.

[orly57]

Originally Posted by T_Hamilton

If cracked and sent to PSA, do you think they will mark "Chicago Cracker Jack Find" on the slab?

I guarantee you they won't. Last June, I considered buying the 52 mantle on LOTG that came from a big find in Texas. It was a far bigger find than this one (the guy had albums and albums of cards). Before bidding, I reached out to psa to see if they would relabel it (they knew it was from that find, and didn't put it on the label). I was told that the find was too "small" for them to label it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by T_Hamilton

If cracked and sent to PSA, do you think they will mark "Chicago Cracker Jack Find" on the slab?

PSA will slab it saying anything you want. It is a service they provide I believe it costs $5 per card in addition to the grading fees. SGC does the same.

EDIT: hmmm I went to post the link to this service and I can't find it anymore. It used to be no big deal. Like I said you could ask them to put almost anything on the slab like Marshall Fogel Collection, Dmitri Young Collection, Bob's Collection etc... Maybe they don't offer that anymore. Anyone who buys a lot of cards has seen the infamous "Collector's Collection" cards from SGC. Yup somebody paid to put the most generic thing imaginable on their slabs. I personally have had hundreds of these pass through my hands. I probably still have some. I have seen thousands.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by iowadoc77

Agreed as far as esthetics go, but if resale is the sole motivator, then slab can make a big difference.

I think you'd need your head examined to slab vintage cards at Beckett that are for resale. You'd be literally throwing money away.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I think you'd need your head examined to slab vintage cards at Beckett that are for resale. You'd be literally throwing money away.

Kinda hafta agree here. He's definitely leaving money on the table. Feel bad for the guy, but then again when he found out that they were valuable maybe he should have done some research instead of just trusting a friend. He'll probably be very happy though since this is a windfall, and he'll probably never know what he lost out on.

[swarmee]

I think that would be true if the BVG grades are equivalent to the PSA/SGC grades these would have received. However, if the BVG exceed the projected PSA/SGC grades by an average of 1, they probably would make the same amount. And it's quite possible that Beckett did all the grading on this lot for free just due to the notoriety (free advertising) it would generate.

[JamesGallo]

Honestly i dont see this as a big find per sa. Yes its a near set but the condition is pretty low on a great deal of them. I am not sure there was anything above a vg. I would think the grades are find but people are weird are i dont see a lot of pre war collectors buying bvg slabs. I dont like to buy CJ in psa holders and i am sure we all have our preferences. I think if these were high grade the slab would be more of an issue. Nice to have some fresh meat to fight over tho.

James G

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

The Mathewson is a nice find and great looking card. Adding another one to the pops is great as this is super tough card. As a matter of fact there are 25 cards in the set with 30 or less TOTAL between sgc/psa. NUTS.

I agree that having them in BVG holders will hurt final tally a bit. I would think most will get reholdered. Goodwin is owned by Beckett so kinda makes sense why

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by CrackaJackKid

At least with this find being graded by Beckett I feel the likelihood of card doctoring/altering is very low compared to if they had been graded by PSA. Everyone knows the Stockton find of CJ's were all soaked/steamed right before being graded by PSA.

Those had to be removed from an album so they had to steam them out which is why they all look that way. Don't know if I'd call that doctoring/altering when it comes to CJ's as most think it's ok to soak the caramel stains out.

[CrackaJackKid]

I'd say a fair assumption is over 90% of the 14s left the factory with caramel stains and that once inserted in a box it was enevitable I'd say it is altering. And for PSA to receive a near set completely stain free..I'm sure they were aware of how they were removed. These "investors" with money burning a hole in their pocket apparently either don't know the history of them or don't care they have been soaked. This is just my opinion. Everyone has one.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

Those had to be removed from an album so they had to steam them out which is why they all look that way. Don't know if I'd call that doctoring/altering when it comes to CJ's as most think it's ok to soak the caramel stains out.

Steam or water will NOT make a CJ look like that. There is no way h2o made those cards look like that.

[glynparson]

Stating you are more confident they weren't altered because they are in bvg slabs made me laugh. I see more what I feel are altered cards (by percentage) in bvg/bgs holders than either psa or sgc by far. In fact there are a number of dealers that send to either psa or sgc first than the other if still not slabbed they go to bvg. I would never buy a bvg card of any value without being able to inspect it in person first. Again my opinion and my experiences. I'd also bet on Lummy at sgc or Steve at psa over any others currently grading.

[JamesGallo]

Not to derail this topic but can someone link me to info on the CJ Stockton find?

James G

[CrackaJackKid]

And if so innocent, how come LOTG didn't disclose how the cards were removed in their auction? Actually, I believe the story was they were found in a box I thought?.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by JamesGallo

Not to derail this topic but can someone link me to info on the CJ Stockton find?

James G

https://lotgauctions.wordpress.com/2016/10/

HACKETTSTOWN, N.J., October 31, 2016 – Beginning in 1908, when “Take Me Out To The Ballgame” became one of the year’s most popular songs, the Cracker Jack brand has been synonymous with baseball. Today, the company’s baseball cards are likely to provide a New Jersey family with a six-figure windfall.

Love of the Game Auctions, a Hackettstown, NJ-based sports memorabilia auction company, will be auctioning a group of more than 170 newly-discovered 1914 and 1915 Cracker Jack cards, including ultra-valuable cards of “Shoeless” Joe Jackson, Ty Cobb, Christy Mathewson, and Walter Johnson. The cards were discovered by a family who inherited them from a favorite uncle in 2002, in a box of assorted personal belongings.

“A find like this is a rare occurrence,” explained Auction Director Al Crisafulli. “In 1914 and 1915, Cracker Jack included baseball cards as the ‘prize’ inside each box. They were tremendously popular when they were issued, but they’re very scarce today, especially the 1914 cards. Some collectors speculate that fewer than a dozen complete 1914 sets exist in the entire hobby. The Christy Mathewson alone is a $20,000 card.”

The cards were initially collected by a South Dakota boy named Oliver, who at 9 or 10 years old, bought as many boxes of Cracker Jack as he could afford, tucking the cards away into his growing collection. Oliver, like many of us, eventually outgrew his baseball cards, but his mother didn’t throw them away – she packed them away in a box of his personal memorabilia, which included old report cards, Playbills, and letters. Along with other heirlooms, the box was passed down through Oliver’s family over the years, eventually landing in the sleepy town of Stockton, New Jersey with his descendants in 2002 – where it remained unopened until this past summer.

The family reached out to Love of the Game Auctions due to the company’s reputation for handling significant sports memorabilia finds. “The family had done their homework,” explained Crisafulli. “There isn’t much historical precedent with collections like this when it comes to establishing value. They took the time to understand what they had, how to properly assess their condition, and the best way to sell them. They took great care to make the right decision when it came to selling the cards. I’m thrilled that they chose Love of the Game to auction the collection.”

The cards, all of which have been professionally authenticated and graded by industry leader Professional Sports Authenticator (PSA), will be sold as part of Love of the Game’s Fall Auction.

“The cards are unbelievably clean,” stated Crisafulli. “They’ve got some normal wear, because young Oliver clearly loved them and played with them as a boy – but once they were packed away, they didn’t see the light of day for the better part of a century. Almost all the important cards are included – it’s the largest ‘original owner’ collection of Cracker Jacks we’ve ever seen.”

According to Crisafulli, early word of the consignment has been met with strong enthusiasm. “Beyond its significant value, this is the kind of collection that makes baseball fans of all ages feel like kids again,” he said. “Everyone knows Cracker Jack – it’s one of the oldest and most respected American brands. Everyone knows players like Ty Cobb and Walter Johnson – they bring us back to a more innocent time. It’s a truly fantastic and rare find.”

LOTG’s call auction will open in early November and run through November 19. Crisafulli added that the Cracker Jack collection will share the spotlight with an impressive lineup of featured items including Christy Mathewson’s World War I garment bag, a beautiful 1909-11 T206 near set, a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle graded SGC VG 40, a beautiful selection of 19th Century baseball cards, and much, much more.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by CrackaJackKid

At least with this find being graded by Beckett I feel the likelihood of card doctoring/altering is very low compared to if they had been graded by PSA. Everyone knows the Stockton find of CJ's were all soaked/steamed right before being graded by PSA.

When I see a high end card in a Beckett holder I react the same way I do when I see one in a GAI holder -- I presume the card is altered. Why else would someone go to Beckett for cards to be sold at auction when it would be almost impossible not to know that SGC and PSA cards will sell higher?

[CrackaJackKid]

I've seen a lot of cards in multiple slabs from psa all getting different grades each time. There was a 14 CJ Matty that was submitted 4 times receiving A first two times,a 2 the 3rd and a 4 on the 4th try. So PSA is no better in my opinion. People only favor their slabs for the registry. My comment towards Beckett was intended to mean that I don't feel there was any alterations done to the cards prior to Beckett grading them and Beckett knowing it. If you're an auction house or a big spender with psa they will look past a lot for grading. The Stockton find is a perfect example plus the DiMaggio card as well.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Why else would someone go to Beckett for cards to be sold at auction when it would be almost impossible not to know that SGC and PSA cards will sell higher?

Correct me if I'm wrong here ... as I very well could be. But its obvious that most of these cards are low-mid grade and unaltered. They don't have razor sharp corners so trimming isn't an issue, and many display caramel marks or staining that make it seem like chemical soaking isn't an issue. What else is there to worry about? The grading seems to be pretty consistent and honest with most of the grades falling between 1 and 4. Tough to screw that up. If these were high grades in the 6 to 9 area I'd probably agree that registry money would garner more attention. But whoever buys the Cobb and Matty and JJ can spend $500 and get them crossed to their TPG of choice to put in the registry.

I don't see a lot of (if any) money being left on the table here. Goodwin is a major auction house. I think the CJs will do just fine as the early spirited bidding would suggest.

[Yoda]

Purely from an ascetics standpoint, I think all Cracker Jacks look best in SGC holders. Black and red as colors tend to compliment each other IMO.

[Stonepony]

I was waiting for Kevin to chime in...but..oh yeah...

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Correct me if I'm wrong here ... as I very well could be. But its obvious that most of these cards are low-mid grade and unaltered. They don't have razor sharp corners so trimming isn't an issue, and many display caramel marks or staining that make it seem like chemical soaking isn't an issue. What else is there to worry about? The grading seems to be pretty consistent and honest with most of the grades falling between 1 and 4. Tough to screw that up. If these were high grades in the 6 to 9 area I'd probably agree that registry money would garner more attention. But whoever buys the Cobb and Matty and JJ can spend $500 and get them crossed to their TPG of choice to put in the registry.

I don't see a lot of (if any) money being left on the table here. Goodwin is a major auction house. I think the CJs will do just fine as the early spirited bidding would suggest.

I would completely agree with this. That is a nice Matty card no matter what slab its in, even if its raw...imagine that.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Whats good about the Find is at least with the BVG holder that tells you where it came from, theres no issue that the card was submitted 5 times before to SGC or PSA and doctored various times or other types of things done to the card...you know where the the card originated....

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

The Matty is a great looking card but the problem is that it's got what looks like a tiny bit of paper missing from the back which I think if PSA catches would make it an automatic 2 or even 1.5. Thereby depending on the final sales price you might be out big bucks when crossing it over. For all these cards buyers will be at a major disadvantage on resale if left in the BVG holders.

BTW if this card is a PSA 3.5 what would they grade the Matty?

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

BTW if this card is a PSA 3.5 what would they grade the Matty?

That JJ is a beautiful card, but every grading company is going to give that around a 3-3.5 because of the thumb crease between Cracker and Jack along the top border.

I'm sure I could find some butt-ugly PSA 3 cards and then say "if they grade this a 3, what will they grade the Matty?"

[sushihotwings]

I am going to out on a limb and say collectors are giving Beckett holders a closer look even with vintage because of the security. Counterfeit PSA holders are creeping into the hobby with ever increasing sophistication. BGS holders do not seem to have the same problem.

D@ve L@m0nt

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Correct me if I'm wrong here ... as I very well could be. But its obvious that most of these cards are low-mid grade and unaltered. They don't have razor sharp corners so trimming isn't an issue, and many display caramel marks or staining that make it seem like chemical soaking isn't an issue. What else is there to worry about? The grading seems to be pretty consistent and honest with most of the grades falling between 1 and 4. Tough to screw that up. If these were high grades in the 6 to 9 area I'd probably agree that registry money would garner more attention. But whoever buys the Cobb and Matty and JJ can spend $500 and get them crossed to their TPG of choice to put in the registry.

I don't see a lot of (if any) money being left on the table here. Goodwin is a major auction house. I think the CJs will do just fine as the early spirited bidding would suggest.

The Matty is already at $34K+ all in so your assessment is obviously dead on accurate.

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

That JJ is a beautiful card, but every grading company is going to give that around a 3-3.5 because of the thumb crease between Cracker and Jack along the top border.

I'm sure I could find some butt-ugly PSA 3 cards and then say "if they grade this a 3, what will they grade the Matty?"

No creases on that card whatsoever. The scan picks up some missing ink in the red background that's not easily noticeable to naked eye. Reason I brought it up is to show the disparity in grading co's and having to factor that in when bidding on a bvg holder. Will be interesting to see where the matty ends up and in which holder. I'd be thrilled to own it no doubt

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

The Matty is already at $34K+ all in so your assessment is obviously dead on accurate.

Agree on that. And it's a fantastic card.

I would add that I think the Cobb is also at a pretty high price already -- also a fantastic example of the card.

To my initial comments, I would also say that the fact this is a Goodwin auction helps these cards. The auction landscape has really turned to a few disparate camps: the high end REA/Heritage; the high end postwar Memory Lane; the oddball and lower graded in H & S; and Goodwin which to me usually features the most interesting cards per capita than just about any auction.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

Reason I brought it up is to show the disparity in grading co's and having to factor that in when bidding on a bvg holder.

Yes, I see the disparity

[ajjohnsonsoxfan]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Yes, I see the disparity

Yup that's an old psa holder. You'd never get a 3 again from psa for that card. Just another value curve ball for the cj collector to consider (old vs new psa grades). Buying the card not the grade is extra important for these cards in any holder.

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by ajjohnsonsoxfan

Buying the card not the grade is extra important for these cards in any holder.

We're on the same page

[puckpaul]

I think the Matty is a beautiful card. There are so relatively few of them, buying the card here, i think it will go very strong. My first take on all of the grades is that they are undergraded relative to their aesthetics, even if the technical grades are accurate or even high.

[wilsonjc08]

How did everyone do with these?