question concerning PSA bump ups for board member

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Posted By: Andy

How is Davilliolo going to get any bumps? It's common knowledge he is a plastic purchaser and not a card purchaser. He buys holders not cards - so most of his stuff is probably relative crap for the grade. I dont suspect he will see many bumps given that.

Look at that crap 1962 topps common "8" he paid like $5k for - I have a 6 of that card that blows his 5k example away. Anyway - this half point thing will reward true collectors - not the "number buyers" like dav.


edited title to be more specific

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Posted By: dennis

he can collect anything he wants. if he enjoys high grade cards why should he buy low grade? he has the means to buy whatever he wants. why do you care? i've seen some of his cards posted here and they were spectacular high grade examples of pre war cards.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The first post had a lot of assumptions and I don't know that they are true.

I do agree with the poster that the new system would appear to benefit collectors who have been purchasing cards high for their assigned grade. I think those collectors benefited under the old system as well, as many buyers inspect the card not just the grade. It's hard to go wrong purchasing a better example of the grade, no matter what the system.

Fair to assume that some PSA registry collectors were purchasing some cards based on number alone-- for number crunching purposes. At least a few duds were acquired in this process, no doubt.

I think graders do a valuable service, but considering that most collectors are keenly aware how many times cards are cracked and resubmitted for different grades (and get different grades!), I'm surprised people take the numbers on a label as seriously as they do.

Under the old system, I would find most curious a registry set collector who both finds the numbers themselves of great significance and resubmits cards to get different numbers for unchanging cards. The latter (margin of error in grading as evidenced by resubmitted cards) would appear to undermine the former (the "great significance" of the numbers themselves). This could be a test case for psychology (and marketing) students.

I should note that I'm sure most PSA card collectors look at both the numeric grade AND the card-- if the card looks weak or strong or just right for the grade, that is taken into due consideration before purchase. I'm not suggesting or implying that all PSA collectors are numerologists.

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Posted By: JimB

I have not seen Crandall's collection other than a handful of cards he posted here, which were spectacular. But I would imagine there is much more quality variance in terms of collector appeal in the average PSA 2 than PSA 8. In other words, 99.9% of 8s are pretty incredible looking cards. Some 2s look great and some look like crap.
JimB

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Posted By: Jim VB

Andy,

You make an awful lot of rash generalizations that seem ridiculous on their face.

I don't know Jim C. I have never met him. I have had a couple of "talks" with him on this board as well as the basketball board. He is as much, if not more, of a collector than anyone else here. He is incredibly knowledgeable on sets of all kinds, both mainstream and obscure. He does like to collect high grade examples, and he likes to "compete" on the registries. So what? How does that make him not a collector?

That's his way of collecting. Who's to say it's better or worse than any other way?

(By the way, statistically, if every PSA card was re-submitted, in theory, 50% would get the 1/2 point bump. Assuming every PSA 8 actually represented some grade between 8.0 and 8.9, half would be moving up to 8.5 upon submission.)

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Whether or not he is a holder buyer he is about to have all 22,000 holders blessed whether they bump or not and whether they are altered or not.

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Posted By: Steve

I would think Jim's cards are just as nice, pct wise as anyone elses.

You would be surprised at some of the cards he and his various agents have accumalated.


Steve

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Posted By: Eric B

Jim VB, are you sure that around 50% will get the bump at the 8 level? I'm thinking that since there are far more 8's than 9's, the higher you go up the scale (8.1, 8.2, 8.3, etc), the less cards you will have. The bell curve!

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Posted By: Jim VB

Eric,

But wouldn't your bell curve theory also apply to the entire universe of PSA 8's? (More in the middle range, less on the extremes?) If so, half of them would be "movin' on up..."

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Posted By: 1880nonsports

I would say that's a pretty unfair characterization of Jim's collecting. I don't know him but have read many of his posts and musings on this board - some even without agenda where he has shared some of his passion about his cards.....
Only Jim can or should express how he feels or his motivations unless you are married to him. You can infer things for yourself - keeping in mind they are tainted by your personal outlook or philosophy. The graded card collector (or any kind of collector for that matter) I would think to be no more or less passionate than the next guy. I would agree that the registry alters the quest for some - as like finishing a set for the "completest" - the goal might be accumulating the highest graded set known - which suggests that certain cards residing in high holders become more than just the card. Why point to Jim in specific? Has he told you or expressed on the board such a viewpoint?
BTW - pretty sure I couldn't tell the difference between a real "8" - an "8 1/2" or a "9". I DO know that if I was trying to buy one - the dealer would be saying it's better than the grade - and I'd likely come down on the other side. Just my nickle er ah um quarter?

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Posted By: Steve

But wouldn't your bell curve theory also apply to the entire universe of PSA 8's? (More in the middle range, less on the extremes?) If so, half of them would be "movin' on up..."


It would (maybe)if grading was a science. Since it is subjective a person can send in 100 8's and get any number (including 0) bumped up.


Steve

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Posted By: Andy

I was basing it on that dog 62 topps common that he bought for like 5k. That told me the number on the plastic holder was more important than the actual CARD itself, so odds are his cards are relative crap for the grade, therefore, minimal bumps probably.

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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

Andy,

Why the personal attack on this specific collection?

Besides the 1962 Topps cards that were pictured on this forum, how many of his 22,000 have you seen?

Just curious.

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Posted By: Andy

Not trying to attack anybody. Just trying to point out true collectors of cardboard should fare far better than the plastic number chasers. That's all.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"Not trying to attack anybody. Just trying to point out true collectors of cardboard should fare far better than the plastic number chasers."


Ouch Andy...that statement alone, if not an attck, is somewhat insulting. Jim is a true collector with just as much passion as the next. He just chooses to collect in his own way. Everyone here has a different collecting style or taste but we are all true collectors regardless.

I think what you are trying to say is not translating well into the written word.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

When you collect Registry sets occasionally you end up buying the holder and not the card in order to fill the hole. Every single Registry person does it, period. That being said, who doesn't sometimes pay more for a card than you should if you really really want it?

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Posted By: Steve

For all we (and you) know that 62 you talk about may have been a really tuff card to find and he settled on it.

Steve

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Posted By: Eric B

No, you start with the entire population of a set. There are many 5's, quite a few 6's, some 7's, a few 8's, couple 9's, scarce with 10's. As you get higher, there are less cards. So there are many times more cards AROUND the 8 grade than the 9 grade. Therefore many more low 8's than high 8's. And even less low 9's.

So really, if this half grade thing was accurate, there should be less than 30% upgrades on the 8's. By the same token, you should have close to 50% upgrades in the 3,4,5 range.

If half the 8's for vintage cards get an upgrade, then statistically the grading is less than objective.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

I have seen Jim's collection and he has many cards that are "high end".

Frank

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Posted By: mike rothstein

Andy - I think there's a problem with your logic.

You wouldn't like if I made the same leap and said you weren't very intelligent based on what I see as flawed reasoning.

Jim deserves better than this from the collecting community.

I may agree that trying to finish 100 sets approaches what may appear to be accumulating rather than collecting - but that's his business IMO.