A few more HOF sigs for your examination

[tha-rock]

At the suggestion of Michael, I'm going to start a new thread for you vintage autograph sleuths. As before, all help will be appreciated.

Joss is a steel tipped fountain pen on a piece of paper glued to cardboard. I tried to peel back a corner of the paper to see if I could tell what was on the back of the paper, but it looked like it would destroy the autograph, so I stopped.

The Vance is a real 33 Goudey. Parts of the sig look good to me, other parts don't.

The Bender Cracker Jack appears to be a real vintage card but I am not sure. It has been trimmed and glued to white paper. I have tried to peel back the paper and the back appears to be a Cracker Jack on very thin paper. I know it is not a modern Dover reprint. it is signed in steel tipped pen which unfortunately skipped badly on the B in his name.

The Wilbert Robinson is a pencil cut with some damage. At one time this was glued to a glossy photograph but it has been cut from the photograph. According to a note I found, I acquired this from Dan Ginsburg.

The Mathewson looks like it was taken from the back of a writing tablet or the inside of a book and is on cardboard. I have always had considerable doubts about this one.

Spalding is a very small fountain pen cut. Considerable doubts about this one as well.

Candy Cummings- sure hope this one is good. It is a handwritten receipt in pencil on aged lined notebook paper.


Thanks guys!

[tazdmb]

I believe all the cuts are bad. The fact that they are all cuts doesn’t help.

[theshleps]

Ive never seen Cummings or Joss before. I'd give a no to the rest tho I am no expert but I have reasons for each when comparing to ones I have or have seen

[parker1b2]

I think there is only one known legitimate Joss and it's in someone's private collection , so I would be highly suspect of the one you have. Hopefully the experts will chime in on your collection.

[daves_resale_shop]

All no good in my opinion.

Look like a few were penned in the same hand/same pen

Ink bleed is not what i would expect to see in a 100 year old piece...

I hope that you do not have a lot invested in them

David linardy

[Duluth Eskimo]

Those are all bad. Many of the items are not old enough to date them to the time of a possible signature. Add to that the bleeding in the signatures and the light and softly written and labored appearance adds up to no good.

[bgar3]

I would at least check the Spalding out as it seems like it might be the famous violinest, just not A G Spalding of baseball fame etc.
No thoughts on the others.

[T206Collector]

I do not like any of them either, and really dislike the Mathewson, Bender and Joss.

[A2000]

Do you mind telling us where you purchased these items from and is it too late to get a refund?

[Republicaninmass]

If consensus says any might be good, are they going to be posted on the BST boards?

[tha-rock]

Thanks to everyone for your feedback on these autographs. I really appreciate the time you took to look at them and I'll try to answer your questions. Keep sending opinions, consensus is good.

These were purchased from numerous sources many years ago, I would say 1980s and 1990s, and thankfully no, I don't have a fortune tied up in them. If the consensus is that any are good, they won't be for sale if it is the only example I have of the guy.

I did not know about a famous violinist named Albert Spalding, so thanks for that information- I will look into it.

These were purchased before there were any TPA's, so I sometimes wrote and/or sent Xeroxes of these before I purchased them to guys that I trusted in the hobby for second opinions. Some of those guys were Mike Gutierrez, Bill Zekus, Jim MacAlister, Jack Smalling, Jeff Morey, Doug Averitt, and I may have also used Jim Stinson. I also purchased and/or traded with those guys as well as Jim Spence, Bill Van Buskirk, Bill Corcoran, Craig Woodcock, Wayne Stivers, although I can't say for 100% if these came from those guys.

Since these purchases happened so long ago, and I didn't keep good records of where I got them, I would not ask anyone for a refund on these. In the old days, just about everything was sold 'as is' and 'buyer beware', so if you bought it, it was yours. You were dependent on the seller's reputation.

I didn't keep good records as I said, and I don't want to imply that anyone I bought from knowingly sold me bad stuff. I think most of the folks who sold me these items truly believed they were good. Some of my files indicate that the Wilbert Robinson came from Dan Ginsburg. Doug Averitt said it looked good. Another letter suggests I acquired the Cummings and maybe a John Clarkson from Wayne Stivers in trade. Be assured having never seen a Cummings or Clarkson, I wasn't going to buy them from just anyone- but from someone I trusted, and I trusted Wayne, so if I got them from him, I have no hard feelings, because I think he believed they were good.

I have noticed that my Cummings and Clarkson closely match the examples shown in Mark Alan Baker's book, SCD Baseball Autograph Handbook which came out in 1991. I think I acquired the Cummings and Clarkson in 1997, so it is entirely possible that a forger used exemplars in Bakers book as a pattern. I did not post a scan of the Clarkson but I can if anyone wants to see it. Baker's book makes the statement "Clarkson samples are common in pencil, but characteristic of baseball pioneers, very limited in supply." I now understand that Clarkson is exceedingly rare, so it makes me wonder what Baker was looking at when he says "Clarkson samples are common in pencil...".

The thinking many of us had in those days were that more of these early autographs were out there, but just hadn't been found yet. We heard frequent stories of fantastic finds of hoards of cards back in the 1980s when the card hobby was seeing a revival of interest. We thought that autograph collections were going to be discovered and autographs of the baseball pioneers would be available. That really hasn't happened or hasn't happened to the degree it happened with cards, with the recent exception of the Senate Page Collection and even a find like that appears to be the exception rather than the rule. Where are all the signatures of the guys who were in business, in public office, or public figures for years? Where are the Cap Anson, Monte Ward, Al Spalding, Wright Brothers, Morgan Bulkley, Jim O'Rourke, Hugh Jennings? Were they all thrown away by family or acquaintances who did not realize their significance? Does the Hall of Fame have them all? If folks can still find a sack of seven T206 Ty Cobbs, why can't they find a stack of Monte Ward signed checks? Are they all gone and lost to history? I have seen more examples of Washington, Jefferson, Adams, etc. than I have seen of some of these guys. And don't get me started on the Negro League pioneers. Where are all the Rube Fosters? Sorry, I digress. Thanks to everyone for your help.

[tha-rock]

Thanks to everyone for your feedback on these autographs. I really appreciate the time you took to look at them and I'll try to answer your questions. Keep sending opinions, consensus is good.

These were purchased from numerous sources many years ago, I would say 1980s and 1990s, and thankfully no, I don't have a fortune tied up in them. If the consensus is that any are good, they won't be for sale if it is the only example I have of the guy.

I did not know about a famous violinist named Albert Spalding, so thanks for that information- I will look into it.

These were purchased before there were any TPA's, so I sometimes wrote and/or sent Xeroxes of these before I purchased them to guys that I trusted in the hobby for second opinions. Some of those guys were Mike Gutierrez, Bill Zekus, Jim MacAlister, Jack Smalling, Jeff Morey, Doug Averitt, and I may have also used Jim Stinson. I also purchased and/or traded with those guys as well as Jim Spence, Bill Van Buskirk, Bill Corcoran, Craig Woodcock, Wayne Stivers, although I can't say for 100% if these came from those guys.

Since these purchases happened so long ago, and I didn't keep good records of where I got them, I would not ask anyone for a refund on these. In the old days, just about everything was sold 'as is' and 'buyer beware', so if you bought it, it was yours. You were dependent on the seller's reputation.

I didn't keep good records as I said, and I don't want to imply that anyone I bought from knowingly sold me bad stuff. I think most of the folks who sold me these items truly believed they were good. Some of my files indicate that the Wilbert Robinson came from Dan Ginsburg. Doug Averitt said it looked good. Another letter suggests I acquired the Cummings and maybe a John Clarkson from Wayne Stivers in trade. Be assured having never seen a Cummings or Clarkson, I wasn't going to buy them from just anyone- but from someone I trusted, and I trusted Wayne, so if I got them from him, I have no hard feelings, because I think he believed they were good.

I have noticed that my Cummings and Clarkson closely match the examples shown in Mark Alan Baker's book, SCD Baseball Autograph Handbook which came out in 1991. I think I acquired the Cummings and Clarkson in 1997, so it is entirely possible that a forger used exemplars in Bakers book as a pattern. I did not post a scan of the Clarkson but I can if anyone wants to see it. Baker's book makes the statement "Clarkson samples are common in pencil, but characteristic of baseball pioneers, very limited in supply." I now understand that Clarkson is exceedingly rare, so it makes me wonder what Baker was looking at when he says "Clarkson samples are common in pencil...".

The thinking many of us had in those days were that more of these early autographs were out there, but just hadn't been found yet. We heard frequent stories of fantastic finds of hoards of cards back in the 1980s when the card hobby was seeing a revival of interest. We thought that autograph collections were going to be discovered and autographs of the baseball pioneers would be available. That really hasn't happened or hasn't happened to the degree it happened with cards, with the recent exception of the Senate Page Collection and even a find like that appears to be the exception rather than the rule. Where are all the signatures of the guys who were in business, in public office, or public figures for years? Where are the Cap Anson, Monte Ward, Al Spalding, Wright Brothers, Morgan Bulkley, Jim O'Rourke, Hugh Jennings? Were they all thrown away by family or acquaintances who did not realize their significance? Does the Hall of Fame have them all? If folks can still find a sack of seven T206 Ty Cobbs, why can't they find a stack of Monte Ward signed checks? Are they all gone and lost to history? I have seen more examples of Washington, Jefferson, Adams, etc. than I have seen of some of these guys. And don't get me started on the Negro League pioneers. Where are all the Rube Fosters? Sorry, I digress. Thanks to everyone for your help.

[tazdmb]

I have v2 of Baker’s book. I have learned that there are many secretary/forgeries in that book. Look at Rube Waddell for Exhibit 1.

[Kco]

Mathewson absolutely no shot that’s legitimate. The Vance is not good either IMO

[mr2686]

The one that intrigues me the most is the Cummings. Not sure if it's authentic, but I do know that there are some exemplars out there that are actually secretarial, so even if the consensus here is that it's probably bad, I'd keep it and check other avenues of authentication.

[tha-rock]

Thanks again, guys...

Sorry for the double post earlier- still learning net54...

And a huge shout out to bgar3 for the lead on Albert Spalding the violinist. Google and you will find a picture of the violinist with this exact same signature, so I think bgar3 nailed it. Spalding, the violinist, was the nephew of the baseball AG Spalding. Same name- close family relative. The violinist was probably often asked if he was the son of the baseball player. If you look at the Wikipedia page Albert Spalding (violinist), you'll see a picture of Albert Spalding the baseball player.

So maybe rather than being a forgery, this is a real autograph of a famous musician. YAY!! However PSA doesn't have the violinist in their database. Awwww....

[yanksfan09]

I'm not familiar with all these guy's sigs but just from looking quick I notice the C in Cleveland (Joss), the C in Cummings, and the C for (Chief), all almost identical. Three separate signatures...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by yanksfan09

I'm not familiar with all these guy's sigs but just from looking quick I notice the C in Cleveland (Joss), the C in Cummings, and the C for (Chief), all almost identical. Three separate signatures...

Those C's are not almost identical. They each use a style that was common back then and is no longer used, making them seem "almost identical" to some. I can understand why you would reach that conclusion.

[mrmopar]

Originally Posted by tha-rock

Baker's book makes the statement "Clarkson samples are common in pencil, but characteristic of baseball pioneers, very limited in supply." I now understand that Clarkson is exceedingly rare, so it makes me wonder what Baker was looking at when he says "Clarkson samples are common in pencil...".

Guessing, but it would make sense that this line may have meant that Clarkson more commonly signed things with a pencil, rather than a pen.

[itslarry]

Originally Posted by bgar3

I would at least check the Spalding out as it seems like it might be the famous violinest, just not A G Spalding of baseball fame etc.
No thoughts on the others.

^ding ding ding

It still looks bad tho, he had, at least to me, an aggressive signature, especially connect mg the S

[Terrier8HOF]

Did Mr. Joss have spelling issues? look at how "he" spelled Cleveland.