enough is enough

[packs]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

No, read my earlier post. They protest against the anthem because the anthem is racist...

http://www.ebony.com/entertainment-c...#axzz4u4uQU1Tr

Everything is racist nowadays. Can't have historical plaques, can't have historical statues, can't have a national anthem, can't have anything that represents history because it's all racist.

Well, did you read the stanza from the anthem that is no longer recited? It is quite racist. But beyond that I think it's more important to listen to the people who are actually protesting and their self-professed motivations, none of which seem to mention the military at all.

As an aside, I don't think there is anything wrong with revisionist history. We are always changing the way we do things to better reflect the moment in time that we're in. I'll give you another example. Were you aware that prior to World War II Americans saluted the flag by extending the right arm to it? That tradition ended when the Nazi party adopted a similar salute. I don't think we're worse for wear for abandoning it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

Well, did you read the stanza from the anthem that is no longer recited? It is quite racist. But beyond that I think it's more important to listen to the people who are actually protesting and their self-professed motivations, none of which seem to mention the military at all.

As an aside, I don't think there is anything wrong with revisionist history. We are always changing the way we do things to better reflect the moment in time that we're in. I'll give you another example. Were you aware that prior to World War II Americans saluted the flag by extending the right arm to it? That tradition ended when the Nazi party adopted a similar salute. I don't think we're worse for wear for abandoning it.

Racist? Not Racist? Whatever!
Military? Non-military? Whatever!

Do you believe that anybody has the right to protest while at work? While on the job? While being paid?

[packs]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Racist? Not Racist? Whatever!
Military? Non-military? Whatever!

Do you believe that anybody has the right to protest while at work? While on the job? While being paid?

If you fire all the players, who is going to play the games? I don't think it's realistic to look at NFL players the same way you would an average employee. For example, is it reasonable for a normal employee to assume that failing a drug test would mean termination? I would say so. But that is not a foregone conclusion in the NFL.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

If you fire all the players, who is going to play the games? I don't think it's realistic to look at NFL players the same way you would an average employee. For example, is it reasonable for a normal employee to assume that failing a drug test would mean termination? I would say so. But that is not a foregone conclusion in the NFL.

Employers have the right to make their own policies. If I failed a drug test at work, yes, I would be fired. Then again, if I beat my wife, it's none of their (my employer's) business where the NFL takes disciplinary action.

But, that didn't answer the question. Do you believe employees have the right to protest while at work on company time?

As far as firing all the players, I didn't say that and I don't want that. I fat deduction to their paycheck by order of a fine would be nice to see though.

[packs]

The second the NFL starts fining players is the same second they all sit out. It would ruin the NFL.

I think employees should enjoy the same rights at work as they do outside of it. I don't feel as though I should have to surrender any freedoms because I need to feed myself. There are always going to be lines you can't cross in a professional setting, but I don't think that line is sitting down.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

I think employees should enjoy the same rights at work as they do outside of it.

LOL, seriously? It's 10:45 here in Houston. I get off work at noon on Fridays. It's my right to go have a beer after work if I choose. You really think I should be afforded that same right while at work?

[packs]

Originally Posted by packs

The second the NFL starts fining players is the same second they all sit out. It would ruin the NFL.

I think employees should enjoy the same rights at work as they do outside of it. I don't feel as though I should have to surrender any freedoms because I need to feed myself. There are always going to be lines you can't cross in a professional setting, but I don't think that line is sitting down.

Bolded the part that addresses that.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

There are always going to be lines you can't cross in a professional setting, but I don't think that line is sitting down.

Then, let's go back to my example with Todd. He's an attorney. When the bailiff comes in the courtroom and says, "All rise," do you think it's Todd's right to stay seated in protest?

[cammb]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Racist? Not Racist? Whatever!
Military? Non-military? Whatever!

Do you believe that anybody has the right to protest while at work? While on the job? While being paid?

You are correct, David. If you decide to protest anything at work you can be fired. Your constitutional rights are not protected while at work, therefore the owners should come down on them , but it will never happen for fear they will be called a racist. They are as pathetic as their employees.

[nolemmings]

Your statement is oversimplistic. It is by no means clear that a player could be fired for failing to stand for the anthem. In fact, I would bet he cannot.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/marcede.../#3333baa12976
Moot point, though--ain't gonna happen.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Your statement is oversimplistic. It is by no means clear that a player could be fired for failing to stand for the anthem. In fact, I would bet he cannot.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/marcede.../#3333baa12976
Moot point, though--ain't gonna happen.

You can be fired for voting for the wrong candidate. Employers have wide latitude in hiring and firing as long as they don't make it obvious they are discriminating.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

You can be fired for voting for the wrong candidate. Employers have wide latitude in hiring and firing as long as they don't make it obvious they are discriminating.

I don't think you can be fired for fulfilling your jury duty obligation, for example. There are public policy limits to the unfettered right to fire an at will employee.

[cammb]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Your statement is oversimplistic. It is by no means clear that a player could be fired for failing to stand for the anthem. In fact, I would bet he cannot.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/marcede.../#3333baa12976
Moot point, though--ain't gonna happen.

You certainly can be fired if you are protesting anything at your work place , on company time , without the owners permission

[KMayUSA6060]

Only government employees are protected from termination of employment by the First Amendment, I believe.

[nolemmings]

Originally Posted by cammb

You certainly can be fired if you are protesting anything at your work place , on company time , without the owners permission

Maybe you can, but if you have contractual protections such as may be found in collective bargaining agreements, there are often obstacles to such firings. An owner would likely have to claim that the "protest" violated a morals provision in the CBA and convince an arbitrator that certain broad and likely amorphous language governing player conduct precludes gestures (kneeling) during the anthem. Then he would have to show that such conduct is so outrageous that the punishment is not fine or suspension, but termination of the contract. Good luck with that, even at the arbitration level. Never mind what a judge would do with that thereafter if the player appealed. Go for it.

[nolemmings]

BTW, it should be remembered that the great Jackie Robinson, who served in the military during a time of World War, also protested the flag:

In his 1972 autobiography, I Never Had It Made, Jackie Robinson -- who broke baseball’s color line in 1947 -- wrote, "As I write this twenty years later, I cannot stand and sing the anthem. I cannot salute the flag; I know that I am a black man in a white world."

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Maybe you can, but if you have contractual protections such as may be found in collective bargaining agreements, there are often obstacles to such firings. An owner would likely have to claim that the "protest" violated a morals provision in the CBA and convince an arbitrator that certain broad and likely amorphous language governing player conduct precludes gestures (kneeling) during the anthem. Then he would have to show that such conduct is so outrageous that the punishment is not fine or suspension, but termination of the contract. Good luck with that, even at the arbitration level. Never mind what a judge would do with that thereafter if the player appealed. Go for it.

Yeah, I'd like to be the lawyer on that one there. After an hour reviewing players who weren't fired for abusing their wives in public, beating their kids senseless, punching police officers, participating in sexual assaults of every stripe imaginable who weren't terminated on the morals clause, I'd then get around to the guy who too a knee quietly during the national anthem. I'd live for that.