Grading Orange Borders and other hand cut cards

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Posted By: Tyler

I know the "Authentic vs. Numerical" grading of hand cut cards has been discussed here before, but I was wondering if someone could answer my specific question.

As you can see below, there are 2 Christy Mathewson E-Unc Orange Borders. They are both cut almost identically, leaving zero of the orange border. One was given an "A" and the other a "1".

My question is...

Is there a specific time cut off when SGC decided to stop/start giving numerical grades to miscut hand cut cards? Or does it still vary, based on the grader? How about PSA? Could the card on the left be resubmitted in hopes of getting a numerical grade by either company?

Thanks for any response. And please show off some of your Orange(with or without)Borders





edited to clean up spacing issue

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Posted By: leon

Tyler
Nice question. As everyone knows this is still one of my biggest pet peeves with grading. I truly think it's just the day and the grader as to which cards will get an AUT or a Number. Most of the times their answer about grading these has to do with how much is cut off. Personally, I think all cards like this should either get an AUT or get a number and a qualifer of "Handcut". I know PSA does do many cards with that qualifier and I applaud them for that. As a matter of fact if the PSA8 T206 Wagner had the "Handcut" qualifier it would be much more correct, imho. Since values are based on these grades, many times, it would be nice to have some consistency but I am not holding my breath. I was told this Plank would get a grade at SGC but since it's in my collection I don't really care about the slab that much. If I go to sell it I might think about another holder...even an AUT from SGC would be better than the GAI slab....regards

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Posted By: JimB

A pinhole gets an automatic grade of poor/10

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Posted By: George

My Orange Borders are not graded. I was thinking about getting them graded, but I thought a grade of AUTH was basically useless. If I ask the grading service beforehand to agree to supply a numerical grade, will they do that?

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Posted By: Rob D.

This is in an SGC 10/1 holder. Following up on Jim's point, the vertical crease the length of the card must have guaranteed the numerical grade:

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Posted By: leon

I think they will tell you if they will or won't grade them numerically, beforehand. From the scans of yours, and they are really nice, I think only the top left team one will get a numerical grade. I doubt the others have enough of their borders to support a numerical grade. That's just my opinion and ya' never know with these situations until you ask....take care

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Posted By: JimB

Lucky those Mattys were graded by a company whose initials are NOT "P.S.A.", otherwise there would have been a tsunami of angry criticisms about inconsistency in grading. Since it is SGC, we either ignore it (as in this case) or understand that they are human and mistakes happen (forthcoming). This is not a criticism of SGC. It is a criticism of the uneven way this board, generally speaking, treats the two major grading companies.
JimB

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

The one with the pinhole was a mistake by SGC, it should not have gotten a numerical grade. There has to be at least a little orange all the way around to warrant a numerical grade, just like on strip cards there needs to be enough of a border to hopefully see the lines where one was to cut. Not the end of the world type of mistake (as I don't know that the 1 vs. Auth really increases the perceived value) but a mistake nonetheless. -Rhett

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Posted By: Rob D.

Actually, I've seen Leon and others previously criticize SGC on this very topic.

Maybe PSA takes more flak because its mistakes are more numerous and pronounced.

But please, let's not turn this into a political fight.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Rob,

You don't think there's a way to pin this on either Nancy Pelosi and Barney Frank OR Carl Rove and Rush Limbaugh?

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Posted By: Red

I doubt it matters to most people collecting these types of cards what the holder says on it in terms of A or 1. They know that's the way the cards come, look at the card, and determine if the size and shape of the card is wanted for their collection. Whether the holder says A or 1 isn't going to be the determining factor making them want it or not want it. What will grade the card most accurately is the price and it won't matter if the holder happens to say A or 1. Any plusses or minuses somebody wants to add to the grade of A, or 1 for that matter, is up to their own personal taste.

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Posted By: Rob D.

If there is, I'm sure someone on the board will sniff it out.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Red,

I think you're exactly right. When I bought my Lajoie (thanks, Joe!) I was concerned only with how it looked. Whether it had a "10" or an "A" on the flip mattered very little, if at all.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Rob.... that Lajoie is sweet! what a great card.


What a wonderful thread.... I get to see some cards I once owned and have no idea why I sold!
Then sprinkled on top - I see two who have the Wagner I always wanted (and I know of another person who has that Wagner who has yet to post).


The Matty with the pinhole was my first orange border.

I brought a Chase to SGC and they wanted to give it an 'A' (they assumed the hand cut card was only receiving an A grade / no numeric grades).... I showed them my matty was a '10' and was in worse shape / slightly less border. They agreed with the argument and gave the Chase a 30.


Lucky for me the Chase got a 30 instead of an A.
Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to charge Lichtman so much for the card

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Posted By: leon

With respect to my comments you are incorrect.....I try to call it as I see it.(see above)...take care

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Posted By: Tyler

That is funny, Joe. I was just thinking of Jeff L.'s Chase. If memory serves, it doesn't have any more orange than the other "borderless" cards in this thread, yet it still got a 30.

It's neat hearing the history of these particular Orange Borders. Thanks for chiming in.

Edited to add:

I would've liked to see that argument with SGC...

SGC: "The Chase Orange Border will receive an "A".
Joe D: "C'mon, you gave this Matty a 10!"
SGC: "OK, will you accept 30?"
Joe D: "Done"

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Posted By: dan mckee

There are 2 different poses of Wagner in this issue.

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Posted By: John

SGC is very inconsistent on these hand cut cards. All hand cut cards should get an "A" and nothing more IMO.

The cards below are a great example of inconsistent practices in the grading business. I find it funny that the Mathewson on the left gets a "VG" which is less intact compared to the one on the right which gets an "A" makes no sense.

P.S. Sorry I know there not Orange Borders so I hope I didn't play on the wrong field...

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Posted By: Joe D.

John....
clearly more of the card = no chance for numerical grade


Dan....
you da man. Yes, there are two Wagner poses. The one posted in this thread is the cooler pose IMO.


Leon....
Jim B was spot on with his comment with respect to this board as a whole.



Tyler...
It kind of went just like that. Only they didn't ask if I would accept a 30. They just said they would give it a 30.
If I remember correctly.... and this is from holding both of them in my hands.... the Chase has slightly more of the border than the Matty does (stressing the word slightly).

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Posted By: leon

I agree Jim was correct as to the whole...I don't care for being generalized though. I rarely just go with the flow....ie Marshall ...take care

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Posted By: Jeff LIchtman

What, did I stumble upon the armpit vintage baseball card collectors' board?

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Posted By: George

Jeff,

That Cobb card is unfair. If you like, send it to me, and I will trim off most of those ostentatious and unnecessary orange borders, so that your card will look like the rest of ours. This egalitarian gesture will be in keeping with the philosophy and policies of the new adminstration.

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Posted By: JimB

Leon said,
"JimBJanuary 23 2009, 1:12 PM

With respect to my comments you are incorrect.....I try to call it as I see it.(see above)...take care"


Leon,
I honestly was not even thinking about you or your specific comments when I made my post. Nobody can seriously argue that the treatment of grading companies on this board in general is not uneven, to say the least. I am not advocating for either company. I probably have more SGC graded cards than PSA in my collection. Just advocating for fairness. But that is up to individuals. WIth respect to the tenor of the board with respect to grading, your particular views are just one in a sea in my opinion.
JimB
P.S. The course of this thread so far only reinforces my point. If PSA made such a dramatic mistake of inconsistency in their grading, they would be slammed. They get slammed for occasionally mislabeling a pose, a mistake that probably happens about one in every quarter million cards they grade. Whether collectors of orange border cards would value the card differently in an authentic or 10 holder is besides the point. Grading companies, in part, are selling consistency (not consistency when the distinction between grades matters significantly for a specific card in a specific set).

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Posted By: larry

can anyone help me value this card? i have 22 others graded 5-7



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Posted By: Dave F

$100-125