Continuing the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back debate

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Henry,

I contacted Jim Shaw and Joe Parker regarding Factory 33. Joe Parker did inform me that F33, 4NC was the former F.R. Penn plant in Reidsville. It was still in service in 1927. I don't know how long afterwards. F130 in Reidsville was also an American Tobacco plant and he would guess that F33 was consolidated with it, probably not long after that, or certainly by the time the depression was in full swing.

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For the premier online souce of information on baseball-related cigarette packs, visit http://www.baseballandtobacco.com

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Found an obit for Penn's son here: http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-153163047.html

Note the last sentence, which may pin the time frame down as 1911-12.

----------------------------------------------------------

Lucky Strike founder Charles Penn, 63, dies.(Triad)

Article from:
The News & Record (Piedmont Triad, NC)


75 YEARS AGO

From the Greensboro Daily News, Oct. 22-28, 1931

Charles A. Penn, vice president of American Tobacco Co. and long prominent in civic and charitable activities in Reidsville, died at St. Luke's Hospital in New York after a short illness. He was 63.

He appeared to be in good health until he became ill several days ago and was admitted to the hospital. Penn was well known within the tobacco industry and was a pioneer in introducing modern machine methods to making cigarettes and cigars. He was working with his father at the old F.R. Penn Tobacco Co . when it merged with American Tobacco about 1911.

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Posted By: Shawn

Men, I think we may have a match here... Though its not real clear, the spacing and everything is almost the same. I am posting now so perhaps someone can find a better side shot.

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Posted By: Shawn

I have also found this notation, for what its worth...



Blackwell's Durham Tobacco Company (Durham, N. C.)-capital, $1,000, 000. In 1899 the American Tobacco Company procured for $4,000,000 all the stock of Blackwell's Durham Tobacco Company at Durham, N. C., manufacturer and distributer of tobacco products. Thereupon the Blackwell's Durham Tobacco Company, of New Jersey, capital, $1,000,000 all owned by the American, was organized and took over the assets of the old company, then under receivership. Its separate organization has been preserved.

The Durham Company has acquired control of the following competitors- Reynold's Tobacco Company; F. R. Penn Tobacco Company; and Wells-Whitehead Tobacco Company.

The following companies came also under the control of the American Tobacco Company through acquired stock ownership:

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Great research JON, DAVE, and SHAWN......very informative.

TED Z

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Posted By: Scott M.

Ted,

These kinds of threads always inspire me as I love to do research on various card issues to see what I can turn up.

Interestingly, I found a blurb which seems to "announce" the Ty Cobb brand that was published on the following dates and locations:

March 5, 1910 - Tuscon, AZ (Look in the stray topics from New York section)
March 6, 1910 - Grand Forks, ND
March 8, 1910 - San Jose, CA

Obviously the blurb says nothing about where the brand was to be distributed (likely locally in Georgia) but at least this does seem to tell us that the brand was kicked off (or at least announced) in early 1910.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

[DELETED]

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Posted By: J Hull

Scott, great find.

Info like that and people who are interested enough to search for it and kind enough to share it when they find it are the biggest reason I read this board.

Jamie

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Wow, eagle eyes on those press clippings!

Looks like the pipe tobacco had a press agent plant press releases around the country, so a wide distribution may have been planned. I have to think now that the ATC 1911 date in the Penn obit I posted must actually refer to whatever happened post breakup to factory 33. It sure seems like a date of 1910 is most likely for the Cobb/Cobb based on the clippings.

I wonder if the pending breakup of ATC aborted the launch of the Ty Cobb pipe tobacco then? The cards seem more and more (to me at least) to have been printed as a promotional item to coincide with the pipe tobacco launch.

Ted-I have followed the brown/blue caption threads prior but do not recall if a conclusion was made that the blues were post breakup. I know you mention 1912 as the date the fonts and colors changed, so that makes sense, just not sure if you mention all blue captions are post breakup somewhere else.

A little applied research on this old subject has really paid off-this is a great thread.

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Posted By: Shawn

Is this a coincidence or what??? F.R. PENN Tobacco Co. "Georgia Cracker" Tag!

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Fantastic stuff, guy. You have proven to to be our Net54 resident detective when it comes researching archival stuff
on E-cards and T-cards.

Thanks much....this is why threads like this are worth re-visting.

TED Z

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Posted By: JimB

Scott,
That is fantastic research. Since "pipe" is always in quotations, I wonder if it was pipe tobacco (They mention 'smoking tobacco') that was being announced, or if that was not some current slang/double entendre from the press release. Either way, dating it to 1910 is a huge step forward.
JimB

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JIM B

The Ty Cobb tin is labelled "Granulated Cut Plug" tobacco. Having been a pipe smoker in my
younger days, I'd say this is consistent with the newspaper announcements of "pipe tobacco".

But, note that on the side of the tin is the word...."Cigarettes" ? ?

Nothing in this ongoing mystery is simple. But, we are finally making some progress.

TED Z

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Posted By: JimB

Hi Ted,

You could be right, but I think "granulated cut plug" refers to a type of cut of tobacco that can be applied for either cigarette tobacco or pipe tobacco and does not necessarily indicate one or the other definitively. See the link for a 1914 ad.

JimB



http://cgi.ebay.com.my/O-U-WISE-MAN-CUT-PLUG-SMOKING-TOBACCO-1914-PALMER-COX_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ200291465482>




edited for spelling.

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Posted By: J Hull

Here are the front and back pictures from the tin sold by REA a couple years ago. Putting together the two images, the side of the tin says "For Pipe and Cigarette".

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Posted By: Shawn

The Penn's tin that I listed above states "Pipe & Cigarette" and it "Chews Good Too".....

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

That Penn button says Reidsville, SC but there is also a Reidsville, Georgia. May not mean anything but the Georgia connection is intriguing.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Dave,
That's Reidsville, NC.... And it's only 40 minutes from me.
Be well Brian



PS Some of the old Tobacco factories are still standing...

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

er, yes that is an "n" after careful scrutiny.....

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Posted By: fkw

Cobb Back is NOT a T206.... it has a glossy surface, and we all know T206 cards are not glossy. Thats enough right there.

Call it a T206-2

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

In my searching, I had considered the F. R. Penn Tobacco Co. as possibly being the mysterious
Factory 33.

However, when I looked at a North Carolina map....I thought Reidsville was too far distant from
Durham to be within the 4h District.

Your thoughts on this ?

TED Z

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Posted By: Mike Dalton

This board is great! I am what I believe is usually referred to as a lurker and am just going to chime in here.I did a google book search and found some links that have more info on F.R. Penn.

This link has some info on the Penn company. They made plug tobacco for sure.
http://books.google.com/books?id=6x4UAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA386&dq=F.R.+Penn+plug+t obacco&as_brr=1

This is an interesting link about a lawsuit involving Penn. confirms location in Reidsville I believe.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ibA2AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA13&dq=F.R.+Penn&as_brr= 1

More info.
http://books.google.com/books?id=VmICAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA15&dq=F.R.+Penn&as_brr=1#PRA1-PA15,M1

This is all interesting reading. I apologize if this all old info.

I am convinced by the evidence you have presented on this board that the card in question came from the Penn factory in the Ty Cobb tin above (You can barely see the factory 33 on the side).Anyway as I said before great board! Great thread.

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Posted By: Mr. Moses

managed to take the tobacco leaf and manufacture many different products - from plug to snuff. Typically a factory provided ONE type of product but it could be processed and sold in many forms. You couldn't smoke snuff in a pipe or roll it - you couldn't chew tobacco that was processed for cigarettes. With time the factories were looking to reach greater markets and utilze all of the plant and excesses. Plug was a form of chewing tobacco - most often combined with ingredients to sweeten or enhance the taste like fruits, honey, and other flavoring. Plug was about the cheapest form of tobacco other than "clippings". People with "armpit" money would alternatively smoke the chew so to speak. The companies then packaged "cut plug" which could be smoked. "Granulated" cut plug was a natural extension and offered to the public so as to fill their pipe OR roll into cigarettes. This is off the top of my little head - I have doccumentation and better identification somewhere for the terms if they are actually needed - but I think not. Penn tobacco was a widely marketed brand and offered in MANY different style containers.
ANOTHER AVENUE OF EXPLORATION might be the pocket tin itself - American Tin Can Co.(?) or sumptin else? It reminds me of the Paul Jones (?) cantainer . I don't have a Penn's pocket tin to look at but will finger thru some books to see if I can find anything that might provide another link.....

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Posted By: Shawn

Mr Moses,

I have emailed a fellow who owns one of the Penn's No1 tins and asked for more pics. I have not heard back from him? Also wanted to add that the Penn's tin must be quite rare because I have seen where it has sold in the $1500-2000 range. I think I found 3-4 examples at this price.

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Posted By: Anonymous

The Ty/Ty that I had was from an original circa 1910-1911 collection acquired by my wife's grandfather when he was about 10 years old working in his father's hardware/dry goods store in south Alabama. I don't believe he got the card from a VIP party in Georgia.

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Posted By: Shawn

Below is an excerpt and a link that is just slammed full of "Penn" and "Durham" tobacco company info. I think if someone reads through the entire thing they may find some answers.

PROTECTED BY MINNESOTA TOBACCO LITIGATION PROTECTIVE ORDER Hill become President. Hill had come up as a Bull Durham saleeman to become Duke's right.hand man. Manufacturing chief was Charles Penn, son of the Reidsville plugmaker Duke had bought out. Bred in the lrade, Penn had an uncanny knowledge of leaf. Tuze~{o smoking tobacco was being worked out, and Crowe was asked whether he could get several car- loads of the brand to the West Coast within a week. "I hadn't the slightest idea whether it was possible," recalls Crowe, "and besides I was scared stiff. What- ever I said, it was certainly no answer." Later on Hill called the young trainee back to,~his qffice for a private conversation: "Crowe, this business is mostly horse sense. If you don't know, say so. But your job is to get so that you do know." It was Hill's way of putting the young manufacturing man on his own, and it succeeded. Mr. Penn of Carolina Like the other executives George Hill was given a fairly free reign over his oa'n domain, sales promotion. But his dad knew what things George didn't know. One of them was manufacturing, and in this department Charlie Penn's word was, by Percy Hill's own edict, law. On several occasions Penn had to stand up against the youthful Sales Vice President's bright ideas, which were generated out of a scant year's experience making Carolina Brights. And Penn did just that quite successfully in his gruff, unshake- abIe way. For Penla,. even more than George Washington Hill, had been bred with tobacco. His grandfather was Thomas Jefferson Penn, a direct descendant of Thomas Jefferson and William Penn. His father was the well-known F. R. Pehn, whose ReidSvillepIug business, founded in 1838, was bought out by Buck Duke. Penn's No. I and later Penn's Natural Leaf (still made by American Tobacco) achieved wide ac- ceptance as a unique product-Burley filler wrapped in flue-cured leaf. The town of Reidsville itself (now centered around the production of Lucky Strike cig- arettes) was also unique. It was a typical Southern town, as suggested by some of Penn's lesser brands- Kitty May, Rebel Girl, Famous Friend, Dew Drop, Little Pearl, Littl~ Daisy, Native, Old Virginia Chew. But even more than Durham, Reidsville had been put on the map by tobacco and tobacco alone. As a manufacturing man ~Sth a knack of maintaining con- sistent quality control and an uncanny knowledge of leaf, Charlie Penn was also unique. It is a peculiar f~ct of the tobacco business that the manufacturing side wages a eon.~inual defensive CONFIDENTIAL: MINNESOTA TOBACCO LITIGATION ATX05 0170512

http://tobaccodocuments.org/ness/28918.html?zoom=750&ocr_position=above_foramatted& start_page=1&end_page=143

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Posted By: Mr. Moses

and most of their other containers are common enuff and don't get big money. The Penn 1 pocket (pocket tin collectors are well established as is the supply demand equation) is extremely tuff and sells in rarified air - it's circa 1900. Of note however is an entry I found:

4 small Penns spells quality tins manufactured @ factory 33 N.C. - two tins with tax stamps; 1916 & 1910; cancellation unknown. They obviously continued to produce tobacco after the breakup. In addition I found some Peerless paper tobacco packages for the F.F. Adams company listing the ATC incorporated as successor. I am still working on the can manufacturer thing. Maybe we can find an historian with files or knowledge of the tin manufacturer that would have produced the tin. You guys are so good you beat me to finding the factory. I'm not done yet

Ted Z. - if you happen by this - has it been determined the # of known examples with and without a glossy surface? Sorry if this was covered but you guys are so fast and prolific - it's often hard to keep up.......

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Posted By: Mr. Moses

That appears to come from an American Tobacco Company edition I have on the shelves. I'll glance thru it this weekend....

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I think at last count there are only 13 (or perhaps 14) Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb cards. My understanding is that some
have a glossy front and some do not. I don't know how this is determined, since (with the exception of the Ty
Cobb in Richard Russell's collection) they are all enclosed in Graded plastic.

Which makes it somewhat difficult to discern the extent of the gloss on these Ty Cobb cards.

It is said that T206's do not have gloss; and, for the most part they don't. However, I have a T206 Downs card
with an obvious glossy front.

I do not think I have satisfactorily answered your question. But, I think I've given you some thought-provoking
words.

TED Z

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Posted By: leon

I thought this was pretty cool... Notice the factory # on the front of the building. I post this in part, because it could provide a lead to someone? Who knows...




edited scan size

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Posted By: Dave Hornish

Paging thru my copy of Sold American!....F.R. Penn is described as a "plugmaking subsidiary" that made Penn's Natural, Red J, and Gold Crumbs. Penn's No. 1 also seems to have been produced as plug and smoking tobacco and there is a railcar pictures describing Gold Crumbs as smoking tobacco as well. There were four primary subsidiaries in the plug group (chewing tobacco)and Penn seems to have been the smallest.

The most unfortunates parts of this book are the lack of any real emphasis on the cards and the glossing over of the breakup in 1911. Not unexpected for a book produced for ATC's 50th anniversary though.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Double post

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Let us see what we have learned here. Early in 1910 national newspaper's were reporting of
the Ty Cobb "pipe" tobacco.

The tin advertises Granulated Cut Plug Tobacco; and, that certainly works for pipe tobacco.
The artwork on this Ty Cobb tin is borrowed from the T206 Cobb (bat on shoulder) card......
issued in 1909.





However, the picture on the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb back card is the RED portrait version.

That tells us that this Ty Cobb back card most likely was NOT inserted in this tobacco tin....
as, the T206 Red portrait Cobb was not issued until the Summer of 1910. And, I think we can
assume that the same printing plate was used to produce the front of the Ty Cobb back card.

So, my guess is that the Ty Cobb back card stands alone as an advertising premium for the
Ty Cobb pipe tobacco. And, that it was privately distributed in limited quantities in late 1910
or early 1911, concurrent with the T206 Red portrait Ty Cobb card. Which was issued during
this period with 24 different T-backs (more than any other T206 Subject).

The Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card would then be the 25th back on Cobb's Red portrait cards. Having
said that; though, I am not inferring that this card is part of the T206 set.



TED Z

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Posted By: E, Daniel

I'm starting to believe....

That perhaps the ty cobb/ty cobb was not produced as a give away to the public (thousands would have needed to be produced and many more would have survived), but rather as a limited production marketing issue sent direct to drug stores/tobacconists of the era to announce the coming of a new brand.
My theory goes the idea for Ty Cobb branded tobacco was thrown up internally at ATC, and 50-100 or so tins were lithographed with his bat on image for 'sampling' or product announcement to local Georgia businesses. What better place to kick start the product, and with the idea of selling nationally thereafter (thus the ads in papers across the country). Because of the wide popularity and success of tobacco cards amongst children and Adults, it was decided that a small run of Cobb branded backs on his red portrait card would be produced to include as a sweetner or gift to enthuse business owners to carry and promote the brand.
The mismatch in visage between tin and card was likely an oversight of communication between the project manager given the task at ATC and the printer, or not considered overly important when the card itself was not planned as a mass give-away. And there would always be enough time if the feedback was sufficiently positive to create a matched product, if the inserting of a card in pocket tin tobacco made sense.

When the break up of ATC happened the idea to go ahead with Ty Cobb tobacco died, and thus many of the recipients of the sample product simply threw away the marketing pieces because there was no real reason to keep them around.

Only a lucky few were kept by some fans of the day, and that's what we are left with now.

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Posted By: 1880nonsports

Snuff, plug, and other minor tobacco manufacturers were slowly being bought up by the ATC up until the breakup. Cards had already been proven a successful marketing tool. Most of their production was in cigarettes but they were diversifying as they grew, They decided to name a brand after a southern superstar baseball player. It was a relatively new (and short lived) "granulated plug tobacco" that could be smoked in a pipe (least popular mode after snuff of ingesting tobacco in the period) or rolled in a cigarette. They designed a tin showing him with a bat on pose and so a portrait image was suggested for the card to differentiate it from the image on the tin - or as the manufacture and sale of these minor types of tobacco products came with small margins - perhaps there were extra sheets laying around and they just used them. I personally would have switched the two images . Maybe as few as 2 sheets might have been produced and but a handful of tins as they planned to introduce the brand. We have no evidence of the tin with tobacco actually ON the shelves.....
In reviewing a non-glossy uncut sheet they were presenting - perhaps someone opined that a glossy front might protect the card (they already had experience with Polar) from the product and they made at least one (if in fact examples in both states exist as suggested earlier). The card after all was an important vehicle to carry their advertising message. I would guess that following their "notices" in the rags they just abandoned the plan to make it. Hundreds and probably thousands of brands never made it to market. The notices in 1910 disturb me a bit as it's a better story if it was from late 1911 .
Things like the find of 5 of these rare cards found in one place and at one time while nearly absent in the marketplace - makes the idea that they were never distributed ring more true for me. Perhaps those and the other examples survived just as many printer's scraps and other annomalies do today - 100 or so years later - cut from the sheets and saved by someone for love of a peach.

I think it's a card.
I don't think it's a T206 as I'm not sure the category itself is well defined.
I don't think it was ever IN a tin.
I think it was planned to put it in the tin.
I don't think the Pirate cards were ever distributed either.....

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I'm curious as to why you are saying this ?........

" The notices in 1910 disturb me a bit as it's a better story if it was from late 1911. "



TED Z

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Posted By: 1880nonsports

a dangerous undertaking - that if it were closer to the dissolution of the trust - then it would be more credible perhaps that the factory 33 became a part of the ATC later into the distribution of the cards (perhaps already declining) - the idea came about for the cards - and then with the dissolution - the Adams company gets taken over by different owners/management or sumptin and aborted the idea of the brand. It may even have happened that in 1910 they were already part of the ATC - sold before the breakup and just as the brand was about to go into production - the idea is aborted for legal or other reasons.
If I accept that the brand wasn't actually sold over the counter - I've always strongly believed it has to be classified on it's own - as it wasn't an item distributed in the intended fashion. For me (minority view I'm sure) these might not even be "cards"......

I am really new to the T issues - just wetting my whistle. At this point I'm gonna sit back and listen more - while I look over some of the great reference reading Richard Rubin sent me - as well as the few sites devoted to the subject - and finally the greally great threads you and a few others have presented. I'm really quite busy trying to tie down the Marquis of Lorne card and Between the Acts distribution on the N/S side. Even with no life there's no time to get it all done.

I did find one of the Bray articles interesting where it suggested the distribution of a typical series was often limited to but a few weeks. It certainly would make sense in the framework of later 19th century inserts - do you think it held true for most of the 1910 releases??

edited to try and clean some gramatical errors - apologize that it's some late night rambling......

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JIM B

I think this is the Ty Cobb thread you just requested in a new thread to be brought back up to the top.

You're welcome,

TED Z

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Posted By: Shawn

I am not sure what the article below is about, because I do not have a subscription to the site... I sure would like to read it though! I have noticed that the "Ty Cobb" brand advertisements are prodominately in the "Macon Weekly Telegraph" paper in Ga. The months seem to be Feb. and Mar. of 1910. If someone has a subscription to genealogybank.com, it would be nice to see some of the full adds. (there seems to be some full page adds)


"Macon Weekly Telegraph" 1910

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Posted By: packs

Here's my opinion:

It's a cool card that I would love to own.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Nice stuff.....thanks for posting.


Interesting headline on one those clippings......

" TY COBB, Jr., SENDS OUT CARD TO HIS ADMIRERS "

After reading this, no wonder there are only 12 (or 14) Ty Cobb (back) cards that've been found.

He only had about a dozen (or so) "admirer's"....

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

SHAWN

Another adv. headline...."Ty Cobb is the home run tobacco."

That is interesting, Cobb was not known for hitting HR's back in 1910. Cobb, in order to compete
with Babe Ruth, finally started "putting the wood" to the ball when Babe Ruth came along in 1915.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Hey JIM B

What do you make of all the new information regarding the Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb card, that has come to light in this thread ?

I think you'll agree, that it is the most progress we have made in unraveling the mystery of this card....to date.

TED Z