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#1
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Quote:
We're not question the morality of it, just the legality of it. In other words, at what point does it become an illegal activity? It is illegal to trim a card? Is it illegal to send that card in for grading? If it receives a numeric grade, is it illegal to sell it? At which point, which one of these steps, does it become illegal and how? Last edited by vintagetoppsguy; 06-03-2019 at 06:58 AM. |
#2
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-03-2019 at 07:04 AM. |
#3
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Legal Definition of Scheme Or Artifice To Defraud www.lectlaw.com/def2/s003.htm SCHEME OR ARTIFICE TO DEFRAUD. A scheme or artifice to deprive another of the intangible right of honest services. 18 USC; Any plan or course of action intended to deceive others, and to obtain, by false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, money or property from persons so deceived. |
#4
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I guess what I'm saying is that Moser, Brent or whoever could argue that the customer wasn't deceived, but instead they were done a favor by improving the condition of the card. Last edited by vintagetoppsguy; 06-03-2019 at 07:09 AM. |
#5
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re: this: "could argue that the customer wasn't deceived, but instead they were done a favor by improving the condition of the card." "deception" and "favor" are not mutually exclusive, nor does the law say they have to be to show fraud i would imagine. in other words, if an act is fraudulent whether it is determined to be beneficial does not make it something other than fraud...that would be my layman's assumption at least. Last edited by griffon512; 06-03-2019 at 07:41 AM. |
#6
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It's sad to see so many essentially sticking up for the trimmers. A couple articles
First, when it becomes acceptable to use a nonsense story about "I didn't know" and what happens after. https://www.wweek.com/news/courts/20...-it-heres-how/ And the "is it really a crime" thing...… https://www.autoblog.com/2019/02/07/...ed-each-night/ |
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Sad to see comprehension of the English language is lost as well. Nobody stuck up for the trimmers.
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#8
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So, by your answer, if its sold using mail or wire it's illegal, but if they sold them it shows it wouldn't be illegal? Yeah, that makes sense.
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#9
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He got you there, Pete!
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
#10
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I didn't draft the statutes, David, they are what they are. There are jurisdictional limitations on the reach of federal law. Other laws might apply to your situation.
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 06-03-2019 at 07:07 AM. |
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What Peter is trying to say is that federal mail and wire fraud statutes don’t cover the entirety of all criminal fraud statutes.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
#12
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thanks for helping these few gentlemen that are very confused about stealing $$$ from people being criminal.
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#13
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Oregon State Law
The reason you need the interstate commerce piece -- mail and wire, etc. -- is to get into Federal jurisdiction. But, you can sue civilly or file a criminal complaint against PWCC relying on Oregon State Law (ORS 687.011):
"Fraud or misrepresentation" means knowingly giving misinformation or a false impression through the intentional misstatement of, concealment of or failure to make known a material fact or by other means. Here's a direct link for filing an on-line complaint (notice that the website contemplates that you can file the complaint from any state, not just Oregon): OREGON DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE Consumer Protection Fighting Fraud. https://justice.oregon.gov/consumercomplaints/ There is a space for identifying the entity you are complaining about if it is a website, as opposed to a brick and mortar shop.
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Galleries and Articles about T206 Player Autographs www.SignedT206.com www.instagram.com/signedT206/ @SignedT206 Last edited by T206Collector; 06-03-2019 at 07:50 AM. |
#14
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Laws like that are actually common. The legislators figure the people that can sell through the mail have 1000s of more potential customers that someone that has to have someone show up at a show. So they are trying to catch the bigger players. Not saying there are loopholes are that it isnt silly but thats the justification of that conflict...
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#15
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How many times do you have to spell it out? It's like 3rd grade here.
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#16
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I know. This is truly not a very difficult concept to grasp.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
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