Johnny Damon -HOF?

[bigtrain]

I like Johnny Damon as a player but never really thought of him as a Hall of Famer. Yet, at age 37 and with nearly 2700 hits, he is likely to crack the 3000 hit mark in a couple of years. He has averaged over 180 hits a year for 17 seasons, pretty impressive. I think of him as somewhat below HOF standards at this point but if he gets to 3000? What do you think?

[Mikehealer]

He throws like a girl.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I knew Johnny when he was at Class A Wilmington in 1993, he was a great person and autograph signer as well back then (not sure about his signing habits today). That being said, I don't really think he belongs in the Hall, he has been a very good player for a long time but not quite at that level IMHO.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

I like Johnny Damon as a player but never really thought of him as a Hall of Famer. Yet, at age 37 and with nearly 2700 hits, he is likely to crack the 3000 hit mark in a couple of years. He has averaged over 180 hits a year for 17 seasons, pretty impressive. I think of him as somewhat below HOF standards at this point but if he gets to 3000? What do you think?

I think Damon is VERY borderline. If he gets 3000, I think he gets in. I'm not sure he'll get there though. There were a few players that I thought at one point were locks for 3000, just never got there.. Baines and Dawson are the first two that come to mind.. There's a good chance that Damon may end up with a NL team as a 4th OF/1B/Pinch hitter, to be used as a DH for interleague play and for WS hopefuls. Kinda like Giambi has been used in Colo...

I'd say Damon is the modern Baines, with less power. He needs the milestone to get in.

[Cerberus]

A clear "no" to Johnny Damon, although I'm sure someone will come up with a player with comparable or lesser stat's, already admitted to the Hall, and argue that Damon should therefore be admitted.

I'm going to use this thread to vent on a subject that has bothered me for years: It's disappointing (to say the least), that what I consider to be relaxed admission standards, evolving over time, have caused the "Hall of Fame," to morph into the "Hall of the Very Good."

[GrayGhost]

Not a HOFer in my opinion. VERY good player, but thats it.

[bbcard1]

Johnny Damon is a fast Harold Baines. If he get 3000 he's in, if not he's not.

[ullmandds]

With the current state of the game...in the post PED era...with 3000 hits...Damon will be a shoe in!

[D. Bergin]

Not a guy you think of as a HOF'er, but if he gets to 3000, it might be hard to keep him out.

A really solid multi-purpose guy to have in your lineup. Steals bases and gets plenty of Extra-Base Hits for a guy who's not really a power hitter. Also a great team-mate for whoever he's played for.

Unfortunately he's been a liability in the outfield for quite some time.

He has declined quite a bit the last couple years. I might not be a given that he gets to 3000.

[Big Ben]

I think that 3,000 hits is Damon's only ticket to the Hall of Fame.

[thetruthisoutthere]

In my opinion, if you have to "think" whether or not a player belongs in the Hall-Of-Fame then he doesn't.

Johnny Damon has been a very good player, but not a Hall-Of-Famer.

[boysblue]

Never really had a great season, but has had lots of solid-good seasons. At first blush I would say NO, but IF he gets those 3,000 hits then it is likely he will EVENTUALLY get in down the line sometime.

Not sure how many others have 3,000 hits along with 400 steals and 250 HR. Those are pretty fair career numbers. I like Johnny Damon and hope he does get in.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Nearly identical player to Craig Biggio except that Biggio played a more demanding defensive position and was better at it than Damon is as an outfielder. Not quite sure if I would put Biggio in either, less likely for Damon.

[Jay Wolt]

Damon's played long enough and has been healty throughout his entire career so the #'s are falling into place.
During Saturdays game of the week Damon hit a triple and McCarver pointed out that Damon & Babe Ruth are tied at 506 doubles each.
They also said that Damon and just 10 other players in MLB history have over 2500 hits, 200 Home Runs, 100 Triples & 500 Doubles.
But he needs the 3000 hits to be a Hall Of Famer.
Wonder what cap he will represent KC, Oak, Boston, NY, Detroit or Tampa?

[chaddurbin]

avg. career for someone smack in the middle of the steroid era...if he wasn't on anything maybe he should've. kinda similar to tim raines except slower and raines put up his #s in a more defensive era. but if he gets to 3k he'd get in...eventually.

(raines proponent)

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bill James LOVED Craig Biggio, in fact wrote in his book that he was better than Griffey Jr.

http://www.slate.com/id/2184797

[MVSNYC]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Damon's played long enough and has been healty throughout his entire career so the #'s are falling into place.
During Saturdays game of the week Damon hit a triple and McCarver pointed out that Damon & Babe Ruth are tied at 506 doubles each.
They also said that Damon and just 10 other players in MLB history have over 2500 hits, 200 Home Runs, 100 Triples & 500 Doubles.
But he needs the 3000 hits to be a Hall Of Famer.
Wonder what cap he will represent KC, Oak, Boston, NY, Detroit or Tampa?

Hi Jay!

to tack on to what you mentioned above, McCarver also said during that broadcast, that if HE was tied with Ruth at 506 doubles, he'd do what he could to NOT get any more doubles (either pull up at a single or push for 3), so he could tell his grandkids that he was TIED with Babe Ruth...i thought that was such a ridiculous comment by McCarver. if anything, i'd rather tell my grandkids that i PASSED Babe Ruth in doubles. i laughed outloud when he said that, what a stupid comment.

[Frank A]

I think with 3000 he should be in. Whether he gets in or not he is one hell of a nice guy.

[iwantitiwinit]

Damon is an intriguing player/person. He leaves the Yankees who at the time thought he was virtually done and was asking for too much $. He also loses a boat load of his personal wealth in the 2008 market crash and as a result needs to really sell a team on his ability, which he somehow manages to do. The real question I guess is whether he can get to 3000 or not because if he does in my opinion he's in. I actually saw him play a few nights ago and he still has his legs. After this year I think he will have to play 3 more years to do it because I don't think he gets it in 2. I think he is going to end up with 2905. As a result I don't think he will get in.

[ctownboy]

If Damon played his entire career in Kansas City or started in KC and then went to Pittsburgh, Houston and finished in Seattle, NOBODY would think he was a Hall of Fame player even if he got to 3000 Hits.

However, since he played for BOTH the Red Sox and the Yankees (and was on the 2004 Sox team that finally won a World Series) he will be a shoe-in if he gets 3000 Hits.

ESPN will make sure of that....

[mr2686]

I think it's a little premature to talk about Damon for the HOF. It WILL take him 3 years to get 3000 if healthy, and a lot could happen. My opinion, if he gets it he's probably in, but I'm not sure anyone will want him after this year or maybe next as his productivity is declining.

[Robextend]

I always thought Raines was better than Damon, therefore more HOF worthy...but IMO neither should get in. With that said, if he gets 3k hits it will be tough to keep him out.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

If Damon played his entire career in Kansas City or started in KC and then went to Pittsburgh, Houston and finished in Seattle, NOBODY would think he was a Hall of Fame player even if he got to 3000 Hits.

However, since he played for BOTH the Red Sox and the Yankees (and was on the 2004 Sox team that finally won a World Series) he will be a shoe-in if he gets 3000 Hits.

ESPN will make sure of that....

Well, we'll see whether or not Damon gets in and Biggio doesn't to see if that opinion holds up.

As it is, I see no precedent in history that supports that argument.

What other 3000 hit guy (not connected to PED's/Gambling), has been denied entry to the Hall?........assuming Damon gets there, which is not a lock, as already stated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Biggio -- 7 all star teams. Damon -- 2. Damon is the answer, I believe, to an interesting trivia question -- name the only player with 600 hits for three different teams.

[sox1903wschamp]

I don't know about the Hall but he never learned to bunt. For someone with speed, I was appalled that he could not lay down a bunt. The straw that broke the camel's back for me was the 2004 ALCS against NYY. Game 4 or 5, extra innings, situation was ripe for a bunt and he looked like an infant attempting to lay one down. I am amazed sometimes at pro's in this day that never attempt to learn the finer points of the game.

End of rant

[packs]

I don't think he's a HOFer at all. He's a compiler like Biggio, Niekro, and Sutton. If he gets to 3000 he'll get in, but not before.

I'd like to see Larry Walker and Bobby Abreu get in before a player like Damon does.

[steve B]

Amazing how the game has changed.

Growing up 3000 hits or as few as 400 HR meant a player was sure to make the HOF. The along came guys like Darryl Evans and Kingman who lasted long enough for 400 but were weak enough elsewhere that they weren't in. And I'm sure a few of the steroid guys won't get in, so that milestone is long gone.

And now we're potentially considering a guy with 3000 hits as borderline.
A lot can happen, but if he makes it I'm sure some will still think he shouldn't be in.

I think that says a lot about how much careers have changed. More players can last longer, or retain a desire to play maybe becasue of bigger salaries. The downside of those same salaries is teams getting rid of players a bit sooner. Why keep Damon if he only produces as well as a much cheaper rookie? A home town deal with KC would be good for both him and the team. He'd get the needed time, and the team would get some needed PR value from the 3000 countdown. he sounds like the sort of guy who'd offer some good intangibles for younger players.

Steve B

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Big Ben

I think that 3,000 hits is Damon's only ticket to the Hall of Fame.

If 3000 hits is still considered an automatic qualifier by the time he's eligible I'm guessing he gets in, but it will probably take a few years.

[pclpads]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC

Hi Jay!

to tack on to what you mentioned above, McCarver also said during that broadcast, that if HE was tied with Ruth at 506 doubles, he'd do what he could to NOT get any more doubles (either pull up at a single or push for 3), so he could tell his grandkids that he was TIED with Babe Ruth...i thought that was such a ridiculous comment by McCarver. if anything, i'd rather tell my grandkids that i PASSED Babe Ruth in doubles. i laughed outloud when he said that, what a stupid comment.

Well, consider the source . . . If Timbo hadn't said it first, odds are his conjoined twin in the booth would have!

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Cerberus

A clear "no" to Johnny Damon, although I'm sure someone will come up with a player with comparable or lesser stat's, already admitted to the Hall, and argue that Damon should therefore be admitted.

I'm going to use this thread to vent on a subject that has bothered me for years: It's disappointing (to say the least), that what I consider to be relaxed admission standards, evolving over time, have caused the "Hall of Fame," to morph into the "Hall of the Very Good."

I've yet to see any evidence the standards have been "relaxed".

As a matter of fact, with the larger number of teams today....and a much larger pool of players to choose from, I think the standards have become much tougher.

[ctownboy]

D.Bergin,

If you go to www.fangraphs.com and search Johnny Damon, you will find an article concerning Damon and the Hall of Fame. It was written on July 11, 2011.

The short and sweet of it is, based on WAR, Damon is NOT a Hall of Famer even if he gets to 3000 Hits.

Another article by a different writer points out that Damon hasn't even been the best player on his own teams even when he had a big year.

So, again, if Damon gets into the Hall of Fame it will be because he played for the Red Sox and Yankees whereas other players who had similar or better careers, based on WAR and other stats, don't get in.

David

[canjond]

McCarver is an idiot. Ok, now I feel better.

(This has nothing to do with Damon...sorry)

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

D.Bergin,

If you go to www.fangraphs.com and search Johnny Damon, you will find an article concerning Damon and the Hall of Fame. It was written on July 11, 2011.

The short and sweet of it is, based on WAR, Damon is NOT a Hall of Famer even if he gets to 3000 Hits.

Another article by a different writer points out that Damon hasn't even been the best player on his own teams even when he had a big year.

So, again, if Damon gets into the Hall of Fame it will be because he played for the Red Sox and Yankees whereas other players who had similar or better careers, based on WAR and other stats, don't get in.

David

When have they ever put guys in the HOF based on "WAR"?

Am I wrong in saying there's probably tons of guys in there already who don't meet the criteria based on "WAR"?

I haven't read the article, but am I also right in saying he doesn't meet the statistical criteria based on "average".....which means there's a bottom half of players in the HOF, to create that average?

All I'm really saying is 3000 hits has always been a magic number for players without additional baggage (gambling/PED's), no matter which teams you played for.

Not saying I would vote for him.......but I wouldn't exactly be outraged.

Hell, I'd put guys who haven't even had a sniff at the HOF, like Lou Whitaker and Alan Trammell in, before I'd put Damon in...........but I hold no ill will towards players who are lucky enough to be enshrined, "borderline" or not.

It's just a number yeah, but those type of milestones do count for something, over-rated or not.

[ctownboy]

D.Bergin,

Whether you like it or not, baseball is moving more towards stats like WAR. So, if Damon plays another three years and gets to 3000 Hits and then has the five year waiting period, WAR is mostly likely going to be even more established than it is now so milestone stats aren't going to count as much as they used to.

Also, as one of the articles pointed out, no matter what team Damon played on, his big year was always outdone by one if not two other players on his team. So his peak years weren't even good enough to make him the best player on his own team let alone a league or the entire Majors.

Finally, in one of the articles, the author was stating his case that, based on WAR, Trammell and Whitaker BOTH have a better HOF case than Damon even if Damon reaches 3000 Hits.

Don't get me wrong, I like Damon as a player but I don't think of him as a Hall of Fame player. Yet, I really feel that he will go in because he played for both the Red Sox and Yankees whereas a statistically similar player probably wouldn't get in if they didn't play for either or both of those teams.

David

[Tabe]

It honestly boggles my mind that there's even a discussion about Damon as a HOF'er. The guy is clearly NOT one. He's a noodle-armed mediocre outfielder who hit under .290 with a bit of pop who stole some bases. Big deal. He's a 2-time All-Star who has never even cracked the top 10 in MVP voting. Has he ever even been the best player on his own team? Was there ever a time where people discussed elite players and Johnny Damon's name came up? The answer to both questions is no.

IMHO, not only is Damon not a HOF'er, he's not even close.

Tabe

[Ladder7]

*YES!




*But, Only in this room;

[Jay Wolt]

Has he ever even been the best player on his own team?

The criteria for admission to the Hall should be the #'s, not the rankings within a specific team.
There are loads of teammates in the Hall and naturally someone has to be better then someone else.
Billy Williams played in the shadows of Ernie Banks, Don Drysdale to Sandy Koufax, Earle Combs to Babe Ruth (& Gehrig), Maz to Roberto Clemente and so on.

[jbbama]

3,000 hits or he has to buy a ticket like the rest of us to get into the Hall.

[bigtrain]

The Hall of Fame is not a Hall of Immortals and hasn't been for a very long time. We could all name at least 20 members who were only "very good". I think it is interesting that the "milestone" numbers are becoming less important. Quite a few 500 home run guys will not get in. Eventually, 3000 hits will not assure election. What about 300 wins? Is that a greater milestone than 3000 hits?

[ctownboy]

On some of the different baseball sites, I have read that some people believe that guys like Jim Rice, Andre Dawson and Tony Perez are not Hall of Fame players. Having grown up watching those guys play, I think I would rather have them on my team than Johnny Damon.

So, if they are not worthy of the Hall than neither is Damon.

On the other hand, if Damon is HOF worthy, then you have to start looking at enshrining guys like Ron Santo, Tim Raines, Alan Trammell, Lou Whitaker, Dave Parker and possibly even Al Oliver.

Heck, maybe even Bill Buckner could get in, because, you know, he had a lot of Hits, won a batting title, made an All Star team, finished 10th in MVP voting twice and played for a team that made the World Series (and which he became famous for).

[Robextend]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

What about 300 wins? Is that a greater milestone than 3000 hits?

I think with the way the game has evolved, that 300 wins is as much or greater a milestone than 3,000 hits. Does anyone pitching these days even have a legit shot at 300? I think MAYBE CC Sabathia, and he would still need like 6 more years of 20 wins to do so. With the outcome of the game being taken out of the starting pitchers hand, a W isn't an easy thing to come by.

[oldjudge]

Not to hijack the thread, but how many current or prospective HOFers will have 3000 hits, 500 doubles, 250 HRs, 1250 RBIs, 350 stolen bases and a .300 batting average?

Answer-only one .............................

[howard38]

.

[iwantitiwinit]

Jeter will be the guy if his lifetime avg holds up (.313) only needs a few more doubles, sb's and hr's all easily within grasp. Also, AROD very close but with only 304 steals and less than 10 his last 2 seasons he probably won't make it. Mays and Bonds close, Mays short 12 steals, Bonds short 65 hits (plus hopefully he never makes it anyway).

[chaddurbin]

bonds absolutely deserve to get in, 1st ballot.

and what % of bbwaa don't even know what WAR stand for? you guys are giving some of these fossils too much credit.

edit: streaming real/barca live online is pretty awesome

[DixieBaseball]

It is very hard for me to imagine Damon in the HOF, but then again, I read the other day that Adam Dunn continues on his current pace will reach 600 home runs, so when you ask if Damon will get in the HOF, it is hard to see that just like it is hard to see Adam Dunn in the HOF one day, but if he does get to 600 and in that elusive company, it just may happen. (Personally, if either one of these guys reaches the HOF, I think I will quit collecting. The thought of it, just bothers me....I will leave it at that...

[rdixon1208]

3,000 hits is an automatic. But if for some reason he doesn't get there, I don't think he's in.

[iwantitiwinit]

Bonds absolutely deserves to get in? I disagree. Here's how he deserves to get in, allow everything. U want to take horse steroids fine, you want to take HGH fine. Do whatever you want, hit 600 ft home runs, get a 22 inch neck and a size 9 hat, who cares. Outside of that in my opinion he doesn't deserve to get in. The possibility that he would have gotten in without steroids is not germane to the discussion, he chose to take steroids (unknowingly of course) so he is automatically eliminated in my book.

[Chris Counts]

It's funny how Bonds' name comes up in just about any Hall of Fame discussion ... as for Damon, he's not even close. But because the Hall of Fame's voters — many of whom are not students of the game's history — tend to favor longevity over greatness, he just might get in ...

http://minnieminoso.blogspot.com
http://imageevent.com/ccmcnutt

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

He throws like a girl.

This is very true. Imagine if Damon had an arm like Vladimir Guerrero did back in his Montreal days. Yikes! That would have greatly improved his HOF chances. I just can't see him in the Hall with that weak of an arm, regardless of his other stats. HOF's should be all around great players, IMO.

Matt