PSA Error in your favor...

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Posted By: J Levine

Most of us understand PSA makes mistakes fairly often but this one is certainly helping a good guy of the hobby.

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5215503947&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBI%3AIT&rd=1</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5215503947&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBI%3AIT&rd=1</a&gt;

PSA mislabled the card Cunningham (which is rather a tough card in the OJ set). What it really is, is Tom Gunning, one of the more common OJ players and the pose, while popular, is not rare at all. In fact, out of my 30 or so OJ, I own three gunning cards and two of them are that exact pose (although with different captions).

Rob Craik is a good dealer and a stand-up guy but a PSA 4 OJ common for over $300 seems a little excessive to me.

Joshua

PS Edited to fix MY mistake...sheesh

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

edited - no longer relevant

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Id like to point out that Bob did note that in his auction as soon as he found out for sure it was Gunning realizing that a Cunningham card is more valuable

Josh,being a Phillies collector you should know the most common error with Old Judge identification is Pete and George "Dandy" Wood,both Philadelphia players.Pete Wood cards are definitely harder to find and yet every graded OJ of those 2 seems to end up labeled Pete.Ive literally seen more wrong labeled Wood cards than ive seen right

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Posted By: J Levine

I am lucky enough to own both a George and Pete Wood and they are often mislabled and misidentified. It seems that mcing up the two Woods are among the most common errors people make in OJs. Really all you have to do is look at the posistion they played. Competely different.

Joshua

PS Speaking of OJ Phillies, anyone have an Irwin doffing cap pose in poor-fair condition they want to sell? (maybe I can sneak this one by Leon)

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Posted By: JudgeDred2

That is a great pose of Gunning"ham". I've seen it in a darker contrast and it looks even better.

Pete Wood, Pitcher

George Wood, Outfielder (CF?)

George did pitch a few games for the Phillies in 1888 (2) and 1889 (1). Pete pitched a few games (3) for the Phillies in 1889.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Wow, over $400...

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Posted By: J Levine

makes me want to get out my Gunnings and send them to PSA...almost...

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Posted By: john/z28jd

ended at $560!!! Congrats Bob,it shouldve ended alot closer in price to his Sprague which ended at $246 in the same grade a few minutes later,$300 is alot to pay for a label error

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I once had PSA mislabel my T206 Heinie Wagner as Honus, and I sold it to a newbie for $100,000. But soon after PSA mislabelled my T206 Honus as Heinie and I could only sell it for $10. I can't complain, as it all even out.

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Posted By: Mike P.

Oh...so these are YOURS!




EDIT:The Honus in Heinie slab was created by me(sad that I actually have to make that known).

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Posted By: warshawlaw

the "Bank makes an error in your favor" card.

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

Let's see if I understand this auction...

A graded baseball card that the seller obviously examined and described - Terrific in-action pose photo displays bright, clear, focus and registration with no yellowing or fading - is inserted into the eBay auction. However the seller fails to notice and is therefore ignorant of the fact that the PSA identification of the player on the label of the holder is not the same as the player's name on the card itself.

This PSA Error is determined by this thread initiator to be a "help" to the seller. Of course that "help" would result in cheating the buyer, but who cares it's self-interest that ranks supreme.

To capitalize on this transaction the seller could have easily used the PSA Error to his advantage because the card of the player whose name is printed on the label and the auction title is more valuable than the encapsulated card.

This situation could have gone undetected by a bidder. However, the seller innocently reported that 'knowledgeable' Old Judge collectors had recognized this obvious name error and reported it. The collectors’ alert had to be made known.

The initial intention of this auction seems suspect. The outcome justifies nothing.

Check the rep.

The bridge is next.

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Posted By: J Levine

First off, Robert can defend himself as seller (I'm gonna help out anyway though) and he is knowledgeable and does not want to defraud anyone, thus, soon as he was made aware of the mistake he fixed the auction.

Second, the final price for this auction is unreal. I bought an ungraded Gunning about 8 months ago with a clear picture and same pose, probably grade a little lower because of writing on the back (Julie would love it). I spent less than $100. PSA 4 OJs generally go for between $200-$300. He made money on this for some odd reason. I really hope the buyer is not buying the holder.

I think Mr. Craik did a fine thing by editing the auction.

I also feel that as a buyer, YOU MUST EDUCATE YOURSELF. If you do not educate yourself and drop nearly $600 on a card you do not completely understand...it is the buyers fault.

I want it understood that I do not think Robert was cheating anyone and for someone to assume that is completely wrong...I just pointed out a mistake on a Phillie card...that is all.

The initial intention of this auction was to sell a card. That is what the dealer did, he did not defraud and the description was changed far before the auction ended and the buyer bid.

The result is odd and an abberation. Nothing sinister.

Joshua

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Posted By: john/z28jd

There are plenty of spelling errors in the Old Judge set and while Robert has dealt with them in the past he will admit hes not an expert in them.A small print g and c on an OJ card look very similar so the only problem then would be the last 3 letters missing on the card.Both players are pictured with Philadelphia so unless you follow OJ cards very closely you arent going to know Gunning is much easier to find than Cunningham.By much easier that difference might be seeing 8 of one and 2 of the other over a years time.You have to really follow them closely to realize a difference like that.

I talked to him about the card right after it was listed and theres no way his intentions were to be misleading.The other thing is that anyone who realizes Cunningham is a more difficult card in the first place is going to know it wasnt him pictured on the card,so who would he really be fooling? I really believe the extra money came from the label being wrong which when you think about it,doesnt make any sense

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

Joshua

How could you or anyone know what the intention of another person is?

First you buy the sham where the seller supposedly overlooked a name in ERROR combined with a labeling ERROR – yea right - then you blame the buyer in this confusing auction for his inexperience. What a pathetic philosophy.

If I were careless and dumb enough as a seller to make an error like the one purported in this auction I would terminate the auction and relist it properly. Editing for a major error like this one is inadequate. I would be concerned that the bidders may not notice an addendum placed on the auction page. I think any honest businessperson would do likewise.

I hope I'm not addressing someone in the same nest as this seller. I wish you would reread my first message and reconsider your baseless bias.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Jerry,

Yes the final realized price was ridiculous!

Seriously, the explanation provided by John is rational. That letter g looks like a c (on the card) and if someone was trying to guess at the name then cunningham would be it if they were working off a list of known players. I was bidding on the card for the mislabel myself. I wouldn't have bid more than the actual value of the Gunning card. I like to pick up mislabels but not at the final realized price.

The item description was changed the day after the auction was listed. I would feel that Bob was being deceptive if he didn't change the item description as soon as he did, but that's just not the case.

Shame on PSA for mislabeling the card. If they weren't sure of the players name then they shouldn't have labeled it incorrectly. I guess you could say that Bob submitted the card as Cunningham to PSA but then revert back to John's explanation. If you're not familiar with the issue and you were guessing at who it was then you'd probably guess Cunning"ham". Again, the grading service should have caught this.

You do however bring up a very good point - the auction probably should have been cancelled and relisted with the correct item description. Maybe Bob felt that he did enough with the disclosure/correction in the item description.

NO, I'm not in Bob Craik's camp. I've purchased a few items from him in the past and I've followed a few of his auctions.

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Posted By: J Levine

Edited by request...

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Posted By: Bob C

Gerry appears to have a chip on his shoulder and now is attacking anyone who presents any sort of support for what happened here. I will tell the board I have been in contact with the high bidder and am in the process of refunding his money by mutual agreement. I will relist this card on eBay at a later date and be sure to let everyone on the board know when it is up. I apologize for any consternation this has caused. It was an honest mistake. That G definitely looks like a C and when I submitted to PSA I did put Gunning. They unilaterally changed to Cunningham. Scan of submission is available upon request for those with no life.
This board is a fabulous resource. I read it every day and keep up the great work Leon!

Edited for spelling. Spellcheck makes us all smart!

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

So this thread has been beneficial after all.

I am glad to see the relist approach I suggested will be used.

Wonder who initiated the refund?

BobC
There you go - your very first sentence is in Error.

"Gerry appears to have a chip on his shoulder and now is attacking anyone who presents any sort of support for what happened here." - Error.
I addressed only the comments made by the initiator of this thread - Joshua Levine

On the card: One player's name has 7 letters the other 10. - Error.
A first grader could recognize that immediately.

"Scan of submission is available upon request for those with no life." - Error
I have a life but a bankrupt person goes for the witless personal attack.

With so many Errors you need help. Perhaps the complements to Leon to ingratiate yourself will work.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

You think Bob was trying to fill up Leon to make him feel complete Jerry, or in making fun of Bob's spelling did you mistake complement for compliment which means to give someone praise? That would be pretty ironic wouldnt it?

I think youve had your say in this thread Jerry,so why dont you take personal issues, that probably stem from another situation in the past,offline because its obvious to me and everyone i talked to your motives have less to do with this card and more to do with personal problems with Bob.

I talked to him extensively during the time this card was listed and it was obvious to me and others whom ive talked to who also emailed him that it was an honest mistake(more so by PSA) which he has rectified twice now.

I also want to commend Bob for not stooping to low level tactics and name calling in this thread for which he has every right to do.I think that,plus his actions taken with the auction, proves why people are taking his word for it.

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Posted By: Jerry Spillman

Bob C:
<< I will tell the board I have been in contact with the high bidder and am in the process of refunding his money by mutual agreement.>>

The high bidder:

Subject : Re: Message from eBay Member

Date : Fri, 15 Jul 2005 07:21:41 -0400

Jerry,
It wasn't easy, but I was able to get refunded (less his selling costs,eBay
charges, etc.). He wasn't very gentlemanly about it and refused to take
bottom-line responsibility for his material breach in the title description
of the item, saying it was incumbent upon the buyer to scroll down his
listing to read his amended comments.You and I both know (and he must also
be aware?) that that premise, if allowed on eBay would result in a multitude
of malpractices and deceptions.
Regards, Darryl

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: Message from eBay Member

Were you able to get any satisfaction from this transaction?
Jerry


Paul Harvey.....

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Posted By: J Levine

Jerry is obviously very concerned with Bob's auctions...Bob, you can now turn Jerry in for auction tampering...ebay frowns upon this...I still think bob is right...you must read the entire description...I guess Jerry does not feel that way, he must be very trusting since he does not read the whole way down a listing, his car buying practices must be a joy to dealers as well...

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Are we supposed to feel sorry for a guy who didnt even look at the scan of the card he bid on? If that happened all the time he must get alot of reprints because the price is so good on them

If this bidder missed the revision then theres seriously something wrong,its in big letters between the original description and the actual scan! I can have the revision and the entire scan on my computer screen at the same time.The guy didnt even bid till 6 days after the revision.I have a real hard time believing that someone could have totally missed that but knew enough to bid that high on a Cunningham,Philly card because its harder to find than a Gunning.....but he also didnt know that it was really Gunning on the card!

yeah right.I think the high bidder was actually Jerry or a friend of his and bid that high knowing Jerry could make a big deal about it later.Thats the only logical explanation.I dont feel sorry for someone who bids $560 on a card they know absolutely nothing about.Thanks for sharing that Jerry,up until now i thought maybe the bidder was a legit collector

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I owe Jerry and the bidder an apology,the same thing just happened to me read from the bottom up


Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2005 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: Message from eBay Member

Ole Cooter who knows baseball says the card aint Honus cuz Honus looks like Billy Bob from the bait shop and this guy looks like a Northerner on my card.Im gonna return the card and i want a pool too with my money back! Brandine aint gonna be happy,she already packed both banjos in the cooler so wes could move.Shoulda never trusted someone from Ohio
John/z28jd


Subject : Re: Message from eBay Member

Date : Fri, 8 Jul 2005 05:00:41

I done seen it and i remortgaged(sic?) my trailer to win it! Yeehaw i cant wait to get it so i can sell it at Old Mr Watsons antique store for 100k! Then im gettin me a house with a cement pond and one of them butler fellas to open my beer for me

John/z28jd

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, July 7, 2005 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Message from eBay Member

Did you see the PSA Wagner card on ebay,might be Heinie Wagner but i didnt look at the scan.I was afraid i might be disappointed if it werent Honus so im not bidding
Zeke