Here We Go Again!!

[CaramelMan]

I wonder why Wagner 25b psa2 does not have a MK designation when the date stamp is clearly visible on the back..all the cards that I have that have the same stamp, are called MK.....come on PSA

[steve B]

Originally Posted by CaramelMan

I wonder why Wagner 25b psa2 does not have a MK designation when the date stamp is clearly visible on the back..all the cards that I have that have the same stamp, are called MK.....come on PSA

I don't use PSA, but as I understand it you can have cards graded with or without qualifiers. I think the deduction is usually about two grades.

So it could have been done as a 4MK or a straight 2. Personally I think it's closer to VG, but Wagners always seem to get a little bump in grade.

Steve B

[slipk1068]

I accidentally posted this on the thread Connor912 started about the ending price of this auction. I think I will get better results if I post this here.

Could someone educate me about what makes this a fake? Is the only reason it is FOR SURE a fake is because it is not slabbed?

I saw this for one for sale about a week ago, and was considering bidding $100 for it. I thought the background looked a little too orange and not golden enough, and I was 99% sure it was a fake. Also, the dark brown outline around the card looks a little too washed. Still, I thought it was worth $100 to fill a hole in my collection (kinda like what we call filler).

I am just looking to learn. Please take a look at my link below and tell me why this card is fake other than the fact that it is too good to be true and not slabbed. Thanks.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1909-T206-Ho...vip=true&rt=nc

[the 'stache]

Hi Slipk,

There are certainly T206 experts here that will know more than I, as I have only recently started collecting "the Monster", and learning about it. But I have a few things to say, and I'll wait for some of the big guns on the forum to chime in.

First thing, never assume a card is real because it's been slabbed. Unless a card is in Beckett slab, always operate under the assumption that what you're looking at could be a fake. Thieves are counting on you making an assumption that a card slabbed by PSA or SGC is the real deal when they put a fake card in a fake slab, or a fake card in a real slab they've cracked. Always buy the card. Look it over carefully. If you have questions, ask your friends on Net 54. It's always better to ask then to buy something, only to find out later you've been burned.

When considering a card, I always compare it to a known legitimate example. This is what handwriting experts do when verifying the authenticity of a signature.

On the right is a good example from T206resource.com. The one in question is on the left.



The coloring on this one is all wrong. Look at the face on the fake. Also, look at the border surrounding the portrait. The real card has a black border. The fake has a brownish border. The card doesn't pass the smell test.

[slipk1068]

Hi Bill,

I definitely see the much crisper, cleaner, clearer image on the real card. I was going to have my wife open a link with a real specimen on her computer before I bid so I could do some comparisons. Either way, no chance I was going to pay more than $100 for what I was sure was nothing more than set filler/conversation piece.

I believe the border surrounding the card is supposed to be a dark brown not black same as the name/city/league designation? I thought I read that somewhere years ago.

Very cool the was you put the 2 cards together for comparison. Also, AWESOME information about not trusting a card just because it is slabbed. Just curious, why trust Beckett any more or less than PSA or SGC?

David

[the 'stache]

David,

The Beckett holder, as I understand, is two pieces, one placed on top of the other, and it locks shut. In order to get the card out, you'd pretty much have to break the case, and there's no way it could be reused. If you compare their case to a PSA or an SGC, it's much bigger for this reason.

The current PSA and SGC cases are sonically sealed. Two pieces are welded shut, creating a seam along the side. If you use a knife, or a screwdriver flat head, you can pry the slab open along the weld, and pull the card out. There are people that have figured out how to open those cases, and glue them shut, virtually without leaving any trace.

PSA premiered a new slab at the National, and it's supposed to be similar to the Beckett one. It looks like they're finally addressing the issue, which makes me a happy collector. They're happy, too, as I expect they'll realize a small fortune from people reslabbing their cards.

[the 'stache]

Another thing. Because of the Wagner's relative scarcity, I would be very leery of any T206 Honus Wagner that has not been slabbed. And if somebody has a real T206, they're not going to put it up on Ebay with a starting bid of $10.

If you look at the sales history for this card, even a PSA 1 is selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars:

http://www.cardtarget.com/cgi-bin/gm...dID=1914461978

It's the most famous card ever made, and if somebody has it, they're going to know it's relative worth, and not throw one up on the bay for a few bucks.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Hi Slipk,

There are certainly T206 experts here that will know more than I, as I have only recently started collecting "the Monster", and learning about it. But I have a few things to say, and I'll wait for some of the big guns on the forum to chime in.

First thing, never assume a card is real because it's been slabbed. Unless a card is in Beckett slab, always operate under the assumption that what you're looking at could be a fake. Thieves are counting on you making an assumption that a card slabbed by PSA or SGC is the real deal when they put a fake card in a fake slab, or a fake card in a real slab they've cracked. Always buy the card. Look it over carefully. If you have questions, ask your friends on Net 54. It's always better to ask then to buy something, only to find out later you've been burned.

When considering a card, I always compare it to a known legitimate example. This is what handwriting experts do when verifying the authenticity of a signature.

On the right is a good example from T206resource.com. The one in question is on the left.



The coloring on this one is all wrong. Look at the face on the fake. Also, look at the border surrounding the portrait. The real card has a black border. The fake has a brownish border. The card doesn't pass the smell test.

Now just to make it a bit less clear and more clear all at once.....

The overall coloring wouldn't necessarily put me off a card. There are some T206s that show differences in coloring.

And the grainy scan could simply be a bad grainy scan. Some sellers simply can't figure out how to have decent scans or pictures.

The borders can be thin on some subjects, and are almost always black or very dark gray, very occasionally they seem brown. The name is usually brown, but can be gray.

So it's often a matter of what's normal for that particular players card.
That's what makes the galleries at sites like T206 resource valuable. You can see a number of Wagners in decent detail.

In this case, there really aren't any with nearly missing borders, and none with such a large difference in color. So that combined with the grainy scan makes 3 rather large red flags.

As you see more cards, you'll develop a sense of what looks "right" and "wrong" Most people have to think about why a card looks wrong, but the reaction is often correct.

It's easier with a card in hand. So many things will be "wrong" about the fake they will be easier to spot.

The cracked holder with a swapped card either lower grade or an outright fake is a valid concern, and more reinforcement to the "buy the card not the holder" advice.

Steve B

[slipk1068]

Thanks Bill, Thanks Steve, Very Helpful information.

[Rollingstone206]

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