Is 3000 hits a big deal or overrated?

[bravos4evr]

Well.... 3000 hits is just a number that, because humans like even numbers, we decided carries some special meaning. It really doesn't. BUT, it's still a big moment in a player's career and has happened rare enough for it to be a decent career gauge.

HOWEVER, that being said, it isn't a very good yardstick for productivity as all hits are not created equal. 3000 Ichiro hits have not had the same value as 3000 Clemente hits. Power matters.

Now, as to your idea about using Total Bases, it's ok I guess, but there are better numbers to use to get an overall picture of a hitter's merit. Weighted Runs Created + measures each hit individually includes park and league adjustment and puts it all into a neat single number with 100 being avg. Take that number and then look at hits and you get a better picture of production that took place in the hits rather than gauging all hits equally. (example: Ichiro's wRC+ for his career is 105, 5% above avg, Clemente's was 129 or 29% above avg)

Another problem with hits and total bases is that total plate appearances matter too. Rose got 4256 hits to Cobb's 4189, but he did it over 15876 PA's to Cobb's 13072. It becomes obvious here that the so called" HIT KING" is nothing of the sort.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

Well.... 3000 hits is just a number that, because humans like even numbers, we decided carries some special meaning. It really doesn't. BUT, it's still a big moment in a player's career and has happened rare enough for it to be a decent career gauge.

HOWEVER, that being said, it isn't a very good yardstick for productivity as all hits are not created equal. 3000 Ichiro hits have not had the same value as 3000 Clemente hits. Power matters.

Now, as to your idea about using Total Bases, it's ok I guess, but there are better numbers to use to get an overall picture of a hitter's merit. Weighted Runs Created + measures each hit individually includes park and league adjustment and puts it all into a neat single number with 100 being avg. Take that number and then look at hits and you get a better picture of production that took place in the hits rather than gauging all hits equally. (example: Ichiro's wRC+ for his career is 105, 5% above avg, Clemente's was 129 or 29% above avg)

Another problem with hits and total bases is that total plate appearances matter too. Rose got 4256 hits to Cobb's 4189, but he did it over 15876 PA's to Cobb's 13072. It becomes obvious here that the so called" HIT KING" is nothing of the sort.

right plate appearence matters when they count hits too...plus 162 games a year versus before.....NBA has cool states because it goes by averages ...20.2 points per game etc..they dont go by total points in a season....

but not cool to be a 1.3 hit per game hitter...... i not into round numbers...i dont mind have a lot of 9s instead of 0s...

[MattyC]

Have you ever played baseball? College level? High School level?

Yes, getting 3000 hits in the Major Leagues is a big deal. It is an enormous accomplishment, no matter how long it takes.

Heck, getting one at bat at that level is an honor of which any man could be proud.

Look at how good you have to be, just to get drafted. Look at how few of all those who have played, have achieved certain milestones.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Have you ever played baseball? College level? High School level?

Yes, getting 3000 hits in the Major Leagues is a big deal. It is an enormous accomplishment, no matter how long it takes.

Heck, getting one at bat at that level is an honor of which any man could be proud.

Look at how good you have to be, just to get drafted. Look at how few of all those who have played, have achieved certain milestones.

LOL, I find it interesting people still respond to these type of posts by Jake.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, I find it interesting people still respond to these type of posts by Jake.

Same... And it is not about total bases since those favors the sluggers. The name of the game is getting on base and avoiding outs. It's this line of reasoning that will get Tim Raines in the hall soon. Having said that 3000 hits is still a huge accomplishment.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

Same... And it is not about total bases since those favors the sluggers. The name of the game is getting on base and avoiding outs. It's this line of reasoning that will get Tim Raines in the hall soon. Having said that 3000 hits is still a huge accomplishment.

its an accomplishment i agree, but i am just making the case that total bases doesnt get any respect at all in comparison. And it IS about total bases, walks also factored, and several sluggers get a large amount of walks. Also you dont have to be a super slugger to get doubles.... Why isnt there a countdownm to 4000 total bases for Ichiro? thats a huge accomplishment as well

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

Same... And it is not about total bases since those favors the sluggers. The name of the game is getting on base and avoiding outs. It's this line of reasoning that will get Tim Raines in the hall soon. Having said that 3000 hits is still a huge accomplishment.

bolding mine:


this is patently not true. The name of the game is scoring runs and preventing runs. The best way to score runs is to get on base and hit for power. Doing one without the other, while still valuable, is not as valuable as doing both. That's why you must weigh hits as not all hits are created equal. Ted Williams is better than Tony Gwynn or Boggs because he both got on base AND hit for power. Guys who only hit singles are never going to provide as much as guys who hit home runs. (all other things being equal of course)

[KCRfan1]

I always thought the name of the game is " don't make an out ".

But out with the old, in with the new! I still look at the basic stats, such as hits, runs, double, triples, hr's, rbi's , avg, and obp. That pretty much has allowed me to tell how good a player is.

Now there's WAR, PMS, PAWS, and H2O.

I need to get caught up and with the times!!!

And I haven't seen anyone placing Clemente and Ichiro in the " same group ", other than they both have 3000 hits. People doing that are ignorant, without knowledge about the game of baseball.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

bolding mine:


this is patently not true. The name of the game is scoring runs and preventing runs. The best way to score runs is to get on base and hit for power. Doing one without the other, while still valuable, is not as valuable as doing both. That's why you must weigh hits as not all hits are created equal. Ted Williams is better than Tony Gwynn or Boggs because he both got on base AND hit for power. Guys who only hit singles are never going to provide as much as guys who hit home runs. (all other things being equal of course)

I thought the name of the game is scoring runs....it usually takes 3 singles to score a run...that hard to do with no outs, let alone when noone is on base and there are 1 or 2 outs..

i would take a 1 for 4 with a homer than a 2 for 4 with 2 singles every day of the week.......again total bases does take in account all of those walks as well...... let the ichiro countdown to 4000 begin!

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, I find it interesting people still respond to these type of posts by Jake.

LOL +1, I saw the title and I knew immediately who started it.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, I find it interesting people still respond to these type of posts by Jake.

LOL when i saw your post which contributes zero and just attacks someone thats making a case for something and not bad intentioned at all i know it had to be another bnorth post...congrats you did not disappoint

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

LOL when i saw your post which contributes zero and just attacks someone thats making a case for something and not bad intentioned at all i know it had to be another bnorth post...congrats you did not disappoint

I never attacked you at all. Are you confused again? Like the time you openly accused me of sending you harassing emails when I have never done so.

I actually blame myself for being stupid enough to take you off my ignore list. That is now fixed.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I never attacked you at all. Are you confused again? Like the time you openly accused me of sending you harassing emails when I have never done so.

I actually blame myself for being stupid enough to take you of my blocked list. That is now fixed.

right saying " LOL, I find it interesting people still respond to these type of posts by Jake"

thats a very postive thing to say. All you had to do is ignore the thread or contribute...no reason to basically attempt to insult me. The purpose of my thread was not negative at anyone at all, just talking baseball. Is that a bad thing? People that cut and hide 'blocking' have a reason too because they cant defend their position... Its too bad i wont get any more great posts from you on my threads

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bnorth

LOL, I find it interesting people still respond to these type of posts by Jake.

Great point Ben, what's the freaking use? It's like arguing with a wooden indian....

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Great point Ben, what's the freaking use? It's like arguing with a wooden indian....

Hmm here goes CMIZE again the biased one that loves to troll my threads including b/st/ and loves SMR... how come i dont troll your threads but you feel the need to do so on mine? Plus you are quoting Bnorth who says he is blocking everything as he does not want to defend his position (of making posts with no substance and just to criticize), he would rather run away and hide..

there is another poster on this forum braves4ever..that is also making valid points but yet your beef is just with me.....


Comparing someone 100th Chili Davis in ( total bases )n something to someone that is 30th, Ichiro in( hits), to make the point how great the person that came in 30th is may work against a wooden indian i guess...... someone also said the top 30 total base guys would have a bunch of mediocre players in it because they only needed 5 good years.. compared to 3000 hit guys but when i called them out of who all those medicore guys would be all he could provide were 2 guys who also had 3000 hits and HOFerAndre Dawson...

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Hmm here goes CMIZE again the biased one that loves to troll my threads including b/st/ and loves SMR... how come i dont troll your threads but you feel the need to do so on mine? Plus you are quoting Bnorth who says he is blocking everything as he does not want to defend his position (of making posts with no substance and just to criticize), he would rather run away and hide..

there is another poster on this forum braves4ever..that is also making valid points but yet your beef is just with me.....


Comparing someone 100th Chili Davis in ( total bases )n something to someone that is 30th, Ichiro in( hits), to make the point how great the person that came in 30th is may work against a wooden indian i guess...... someone also said the top 30 total base guys would have a bunch of mediocre players in it because they only needed 5 good years.. compared to 3000 hit guys but when i called them out of who all those medicore guys would be all he could provide were 2 guys who also had 3000 hits and HOFerAndre Dawson...

I'm not trolling anything you idiot. The bottom line is you're an arrogant prick. I have not even responded to your BST threads in weeks, nor will I ever, but yet your recent one almost tries to antagonize people. (please read, PSA 4 T206 Speaker). You ask for nobody to "stir the pot" or make negative comments, but why don't you read your own verbiage in that thread. Bottom line, you want and crave confrontation.....

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Have you ever played baseball? College level? High School level?

Yes, getting 3000 hits in the Major Leagues is a big deal. It is an enormous accomplishment, no matter how long it takes.

Heck, getting one at bat at that level is an honor of which any man could be proud.

Look at how good you have to be, just to get drafted. Look at how few of all those who have played, have achieved certain milestones.

Whats your point? I made the case about total bases versus hits....why all of the sudden are you arguing that im saying 3000 hits is worthless and asking about if i played in the show

so if wade boggs told you than 3000 hits isnt a big deal, you would change your mind..or adam greenberg since he got 1 ab..whatever he says about baseball is right compared to you because you didnt play in the show? why go there....look at my post......it just compares total bases to hits....man, whats the deal.

and what bravosforever stated....what clemente did for his 3000 hits blows away ichiro...yet we grouping them in the same category as an equal accomplishment...

[rats60]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Whats your point? I made the case about total bases versus hits....why all of the sudden are you arguing that im saying 3000 hits is worthless and asking about if i played in the show

so if wade boggs told you than 3000 hits isnt a big deal, you would change your mind..or adam greenberg since he got 1 ab..whatever he says about baseball is right compared to you because you didnt play in the show? why go there....look at my post......it just compares total bases to hits....man, whats the deal.

and what bravosforever stated....what clemente did for his 3000 hits blows away ichiro...yet we grouping them in the same category as an equal accomplishment...

Yes, 3000 hits a big deal. You are comparing apples to oranges. Ichiro is a top of the order guy. His job is to get on base. I will take his 3000 hits over 2500 with 5000 tb, for his position in the lineup. I don't care if many of those 3000 are infield hits. It is the guys behind him whose job it is to drive him in. You also ignore that his speed is going to make up for some of those total bases by taking extra bases on other's hits.

I would take Ichiro over Thome for the top of the order. The only way I take Thome is if I have others just as good as getting on base and he is an upgrade over my middle of the lineup guys. Ichiro is also a good fielder. Thome is not.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by rats60

Yes, 3000 hits a big deal. You are comparing apples to oranges. Ichiro is a top of the order guy. His job is to get on base. I will take his 3000 hits over 2500 with 5000 tb, for his position in the lineup. I don't care if many of those 3000 are infield hits. It is the guys behind him whose job it is to drive him in. You also ignore that his speed is going to make up for some of those total bases by taking extra bases on other's hits.

I would take Ichiro over Thome for the top of the order. The only way I take Thome is if I have others just as good as getting on base and he is an upgrade over my middle of the lineup guys. Ichiro is also a good fielder. Thome is not.

Fielding is not part of the equation in my original post ..neither is batting order unless you want to factor in RBIs as well.... ...i can come up with new rules too but trying to keep it limited to just hits versus total bases..... Also being top of the order gave ichiro more ABs then guys after him...over 15 years that can easily be 150 or more plate appearances.

plus thome is 39th not 30th.....apples to oranges.....zach wheat is number 39 in hits..and is from a whole other era....

i not saying 3000 isnt a small feat...i just think its over celebrated versus total bases which there is ZERO celebration

reggie jackson was 86th in hits but 27 in total bases....total bases is a more of a true measure of the great hitter he was..

[packs]

No one celebrates total bases because of the group of mediocre players were able to total a lot of bases. It's as simple as that. Harold Baines has more total bases than Mickey Mantle. Who was better?

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Have you ever played baseball? College level? High School level?

Yes, getting 3000 hits in the Major Leagues is a big deal. It is an enormous accomplishment, no matter how long it takes.

Heck, getting one at bat at that level is an honor of which any man could be proud.

Look at how good you have to be, just to get drafted. Look at how few of all those who have played, have achieved certain milestones.

appeal to authority logical fallacy (but yes I did, and was good at it til my arm fell off)

and it's an ok deal, but it's not some mark of greatness without the context of how it was done. Mostly it's a sign of longevity. A player's productivity can not be described by the blunt instrument of how many hits they got.

[RTK]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Have you ever played baseball? College level? High School level?

Yes, getting 3000 hits in the Major Leagues is a big deal. It is an enormous accomplishment, no matter how long it takes.

Heck, getting one at bat at that level is an honor of which any man could be proud.

Look at how good you have to be, just to get drafted. Look at how few of all those who have played, have achieved certain milestones.

Agree on all points. 200 hits a year for 15 years. Playing 15 years is an accomplishment, then averaging 200 hits per 500 some to 600 at bats. It's about endurance and perserverance as much as athletic ability.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by RTK

Agree on all points. 200 hits a year for 15 years. Playing 15 years is an accomplishment, then averaging 200 hits per 500 some to 600 at bats. It's about endurance and perserverance as much as athletic ability.

I agree as well its an accomplishment..just not as good as some other and its celebrated too much in comparison. 4500 total bases takes in account endurance and preserverance as much as atheltic ability on a grander scale.....i already gave ichiro credit for doing it in less than 20 years like many other 3000 hit guys which makes their accomplishments pale in comparison even more to the top 30 total base guys

[packs]

Why would anyone celebrate total bases? You brought up Chili Davis I guess to insinuate he has something over Ichiro just because he has more total bases. Isn't it obvious to you who the better player was? It seems pretty obvious to me who's better. A player can have four or five peak seasons and rack up total bases, then stink for another 10 seasons. What good is that?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

Why would anyone celebrate total bases? You brought up Chili Davis I guess to insinuate he has something over Ichiro just because he has more total bases. Isn't it obvious to you who the better player was? It seems pretty obvious to me who's better. A player can have four or five peak seasons and rack up total bases, then stink for another 10 seasons. What good is that? I would say there isn't one terrible player with 3,000 hits wouldn't you?

Chili Davis was number 100 not top 30.......so you need to take a look at the top 30 total base guys versus the top 30 hit guys...your argument is apples to oranges..however ichiro has been only a replacement level player for at least the last 3-4 years..

by the way mickey vernon is currently number 100 in hits....yes i think chili davis was a better hitter than he was...chili was in 5 all star teams and was also rookie of the year..he also hit 28 home runs and hit .292 in 1986 and did not not make the all star team..he had other non all star seaons where he hit 30 homers. in 1997 ..he also in 1993 had 27 homers and over 100 rbis and didnt make the all star team....

chili davis far exceeded having 4 or 5 peak seasons.....you need to look at the stats... we arent talking about defense..we are just talking about hitting..

the man had 2380 hits and 350 home runs...and only number 100 all time in total bases....


Number 30 of all time in total bases is Andre Dawson by the way, is he a terrible player? I guess because he only have 2774 hits he is not elite like a 3000 hit guy in ichiro...my argument is he did have over 4500 total bases, anything over 4500 total bases should be more celebrated than 3000 hits that are primarily singles

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Have you ever played baseball? College level? High School level?

Yes, getting 3000 hits in the Major Leagues is a big deal. It is an enormous accomplishment, no matter how long it takes.

Heck, getting one at bat at that level is an honor of which any man could be proud.

Look at how good you have to be, just to get drafted. Look at how few of all those who have played, have achieved certain milestones.

+1....A player averages 200 hits per year for 15 years and that's not a huge accomplishment?? Please.....People that argue this simply don't know baseball, period....Of course you do have to factor in the OP.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

+1....A player averages 200 hits per year for 15 years and that's not a huge accomplishment?? Please.....People that argue this simply don't know baseball, period....Of course you do have to factor in the OP.

None isnt saying its a great accomplishment, i am saying total bases matters more and gets zero interest

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

+1....A player averages 200 hits per year for 15 years and that's not a huge accomplishment?? Please.....People that argue this simply don't know baseball, period....Of course you do have to factor in the OP.

this is so funny, it's the flat earther's arguing that "anyone who thinks the earth is round obviously are stupid" lmao!!!!!

sorry, 3000 hits doesn't mean jack. It just doesn't. you can stomp your feet and whine until you turn blue and it doesn't change a thing. Your viewpoint is simply antiquated and wrong and based on a fundamental misunderstanding of baseball. (which, isn't really your fault, bad information was preached as gospel by lot's of so called "experts" for a long time, but we evolve, we learn we understand more and more now than ever before, and 3000 hits ,in and of itself, simply isn't an indicator of production. hitting 5% above avg isn't all that great.)

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bravos4evr

this is so funny, it's the flat earther's arguing that "anyone who thinks the earth is round obviously are stupid" lmao!!!!!

sorry, 3000 hits doesn't mean jack. It just doesn't. you can stomp your feet and whine until you turn blue and it doesn't change a thing. Your viewpoint is simply antiquated and wrong and based on a fundamental misunderstanding of baseball. (which, isn't really your fault, bad information was preached as gospel by lot's of so called "experts" for a long time, but we evolve, we learn we understand more and more now than ever before, and 3000 hits ,in and of itself, simply isn't an indicator of production. hitting 5% above avg isn't all that great.)

Really?? Unbelievable..Your avatar is very accurate in this case because it's going to be like arguing with a wooden indian....Are you related to 1952Boy??

[Econteachert205]

I guess I viewed the question as a comparison, as in is 3000 hits a bigger deal than say 500 hrs or 300 wins. I'm going to refer my list below to the "marginal 3000 hit hofers", like say a biggio. Here is why I think it is a big deal. Most if not all with 3000 hits have:

1. Longevity and health
2. Plate discipline with two strikes
3. A very good eye or terrific hand eye coordination
4. Good on base and high runs scored numbers
5. Great hit and run possibilities
6. Extending innings to roll over lineups

Players like Craig biggio increased the success rates of power hitters like Bagwell. I will concede that some of this is more national league specific, but I am more impressed with a 3000 hit guy than a 500 hr guy, all other things being equal.