History being destroyed

[yanks12025]

This was posted over on GUU so I'm sure some have seen it. But cant believe these card companies are destroying these bats for these stupid cards. D-backs pitcher Brad Ziegler posted a pic on his twitter about his pull of a Hack Wilson knob card. I actually tweeted him saying "He should buy the whole bat and not support these companies in destroying sports memorabilia".

He actually wrote back saying " I'll disagree with ur opinion - I like lower-end collectors being able to own a piece of history they couldn't afford otherwise"

https://twitter.com/BradZiegler/stat...057729/photo/1

[grainsley]

Just my opinion.....I couldn't agree with you more. Several years ago I was in a card shop in Vancouver (knew the owner) and he proudly handed me a "pull" he had just made.....a Ruth card with a cut-up uniform patch. I actually felt nauseous about it, and couldn't even touch it. He was in it for the money, (like the card companies) and my thoughts went to the history and what has been lost.

[CW]

I wish card companies just chose the route of offering redemption cards so collectors could simply send those in and get an entire bat, not just the knob.

With that method, the card companies can still have inserts to create demand, collectors can get complete game used pieces of equipment, and nothing gets destroyed in the process.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by CW

I wish card companies just chose the route of offering redemption cards so collectors could simply send those in and get an entire bat, not just the knob.

With that method, the card companies can still have inserts to create demand, collectors can get complete game used pieces of equipment, and nothing gets destroyed in the process.

They make more money by putting in those little pieces of wood and cloth. And considering the FBI busted guys who were supplying the card companies with fake jerseys, who knows if you are really getting a legit square of a real jersey or some piece of crap that some swindler sold.
All the companies are concerned with is making a buck, history and pleas from collectors mean nothing to them. They look at collectors as sheep, fleece them and shake every last dime from their pockets.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

This was posted over on GUU so I'm sure some have seen it. But cant believe these card companies are destroying these bats for these stupid cards. D-backs pitcher Brad Ziegler posted a pic on his twitter about his pull of a Hack Wilson knob card. I actually tweeted him saying "He should buy the whole bat and not support these companies in destroying sports memorabilia".

He actually wrote back saying " I'll disagree with ur opinion - I like lower-end collectors being able to own a piece of history they couldn't afford otherwise"

https://twitter.com/BradZiegler/stat...057729/photo/1

Read the long thread about Ziegler in the autograph forum. He should not be crying about being a lower end collector.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Read the long thread about Ziegler in the autograph forum. He should not be crying about being a lower end collector.

I read it the other day. We exchanged a couple more tweets then what I posted but I don't think he's referring to himself as a lower end collector. He's referring to people who can't afford to fund the price of a whole bat, so with cutting it up now more people can enjoy something they otherwise could never afford.

I still said its destroying history.

[baseballart]

I agree entirely on the destruction of such historical items.. However, I think that it's rare among us (or at least collectors outside of net54) that we had a sense of history in our twenties. Many only gain such a perspective with time and particularly with athletes or other celebrities, when their own star has dimmed.

[yanksfan09]

I agree with everyone that it's destroying history. I hate all these cards. I think it's great for current players, so kids can pull a piece of a Pujols jersey in a card from a pack. With current players, all the material is over abundant and constantly being replenished. New players probably use a full new Jersey about every day of the week. It wouldn't surprise me if they even used multiple jerseys in a single game, just to supply companies with more "game-used" stuff.

But as for the vintage guys, who's material is very limited, it's a complete shame. Certainly, the card companies are most to blame and only care about making a buck. However, there's gotta be blame put on the collectors who buy and support this stuff as well. I yell and scream at my TV for all the crap "reality" shows and what-not, but I guess people must be supporting that crap or they wouldn't be being made. I don't know, maybe it's also more of a lack of choice from TV providers and card producers as well? It would be wonderful if society collectively rejected all the crap music and TV shows and garbage insert cards, but I don't really see it happening.

[GrayGhost]

Maybe someone did mention this earlier, but WHAT PROOF do we even have that it is "a Shoeless Joe" bat piece, Ruth uniform swatch, etc etc. As we have seen on autographs, a "leap of faith" sometimes can get you to land in a bottomless abyss.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

... considering the FBI busted guys who were supplying the card companies with fake jerseys, who knows if you are really getting a legit square of a real jersey or some piece of crap that some swindler sold.

This may be one time that could swap the word "swindler" with hero. I know it is just a side effect of greed, but if these "swindlers" didn't sell fakes, then the card companies would have found the real things and hacked those up instead.

[novakjr]

I'm on the fence here. I don't like that they're cutting this stuff up, but I at least understand the reasoning behind it..

We gotta remember that the card companies aren't really creating these things for us. They're creating them for the modern collector and/or typical non-collector who may be enticed by the idea of something like this.

Personally, I don't think it'll be long before we see them cutting up vintage cards as swatches...maybe a t206 Wags, or baltimore new ruth, or a '52 topps mantle, hacked into small pieces and affixed to new cards..

[GrayGhost]

They are doing it STRICTLY for money making, young/new collectors or not. Its a ******* shame. Yeah, give me my Joe Jackson bat sawdust..lovely. Its a slap in the face of history of the game, at the expense of luring people into buying this crap.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by GrayGhost

They are doing it STRICTLY for money making, young/new collectors or not. Its a ******* shame. Yeah, give me my Joe Jackson bat sawdust..lovely. Its a slap in the face of history of the game, at the expense of luring people into buying this crap.

Agreed completely. I didn't mean that it was specifically what the young/new guys wanted, but more that it was a strategy that the companies are employing in an attempt to entice people into buying their crap.

[jboosted92]

Originally Posted by novakjr

Agreed completely. I didn't mean that it was specifically what the young/new guys wanted, but more that it was a strategy that the companies are employing in an attempt to entice people into buying their crap.

Overall Supply of Game Used/Worn, will go down, and demand will go up

what will happen in 20 years?

[timzcardz]

Purely for the sake of argument . . .

IF these items were such a sacred part of history, then they wouldn't even be available for purchase by the card companies.

IF it is such an important part of history, is anyone starting an organization to outbid the card companies to acquire these and protect them from this fate?

Unless I'm mistaken, the Hall of Fame will not pay to acquire and protect these pieces of history, and even they have failed in part in this respect in protecting the history entrusted to their care.

Is MLB with it's billions of $$$ buying them up to protect them from destruction?

So aside from a few here, who else considers them worthy of protection as historical treasures to the point that they are willing to put thier money where their mouth is?


[Just some related thoughts and not my personal beliefs.]

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

...who knows if you are really getting a legit square of a real jersey or some piece of crap that some swindler sold.

Exactly. For the most part it's swindlers selling to people (card companies & end buyers) who have no respect for history....let them feed off of one another and leave the real stuff for those who appreciate it.

[jgmp123]

How can this not make you sick.... Same bat or two different bats destroyed???

[yanks12025]

Does anyone know if the bat used for the knob card has sold in auction?

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

How can this not make you sick.... Same bat or two different bats destroyed???

These are licensed under the MLB banner. I suppose MLB doesn't care about "destroying history" or they don't consider it as such.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by jgmp123

How can this not make you sick.... Same bat or two different bats destroyed???

This is like sneaking into the Smithsonian in the middle of the night and cutting up a famed artifact and foisting it on the public.

[Mark]

I don't see how some people don't recognize that when you cut up a bat you obliterate something terrific and wonderful and almost irreplaceable. Are there any former players in Congress who could introduce a bill forbidding this wanton destruction of national treasures? My hope is that what the card companies call "game used bats" are always index bats or bats that don't match known player preferences for length and weight and style. Even the Mears Authentic label doesn't mean that Mears thinks it was ever used by Wilson.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

This is like sneaking into the Smithsonian in the middle of the night and cutting up a famed artifact and foisting it on the public.

Interestingly, back in the 80s the Smithsonian did cut up some pieces and sell them in displays at their gift shops. My dad purchased one that supposedly was the piece of an airplane that Amelia Earhart piloted.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Mark

I don't see how some people don't recognize that when you cut up a bat you obliterate something terrific and wonderful and almost irreplaceable. Are there any former players in Congress who could introduce a bill forbidding this wanton destruction of national treasures? My hope is that what the card companies call "game used bats" are always index bats or bats that don't match known player preferences for length and weight and style. Even the Mears Authentic label doesn't mean that Mears thinks it was ever used by Wilson.

I don't think any former players would honestly care. I know MLB doesn't care.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

These are licensed under the MLB banner. I suppose MLB doesn't care about "destroying history" or they don't consider it as such.

As long as they can have 'Jackie Robinson' day, have his number retired for every team, and appear to have a huge interest in black history, their fictitious interest in black and/or baseball history is preserved and their profit mission is accomplished.

Don't kid yourself - by now everyone should have figured out that with MLB, it's all about the $'s.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

I don't think any former players would honestly care. I know MLB doesn't care.

I would offer them generous campaign contributions for pushing such legislation. I know two or three other people who would do it, too.


(hey, I'm not serious about this--just making a point).

[Nashvol]

I am hot and cold on this subject. There is just so much out there, it's hard to pinpoint what should be saved, curated, archived, etc. We just cannot save everything.

And remember, there is so much artificial, fake, forged, reprinted, etc. out there, too.

Of course, if there's something I'd like to add to my collection and can afford it, then by all means give me a shot at it first. But then, where does it start...

...bottom line: if there is a market for it, who's stopping them except for honest collectors who add to their collections?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Interestingly, back in the 80s the Smithsonian did cut up some pieces and sell them in displays at their gift shops. My dad purchased one that supposedly was the piece of an airplane that Amelia Earhart piloted.

Yes, that's how they funded some of the restorations. When original fabric was removed from a cloth covered plane they made small pieces from the better looking areas and framed them with a picture. Big sectons of the original cloth were retained as reference materials.

Their restorations are incredibly detailed. The airplane cloth had to be specially made for each plane, matching fiber type,thread size, threads/inch and weaveing pattern. The same detail went onto all the rest as well. Perfect, but very expensive.

The US Constitution had done the same at times. Rotted wood that gets replaced is sometimes sold. But then, there's very little original ship left.
I did a job there once and they had two masts laying on the dock. When I asked about them they said they were mistakes, new replacement masts that had been made a few feet too short.

Chopping up bats is a bit different.

Steve B

[autograf]

Agree completely with most.......new guys, saw 'em up, no big deal. Griffy Jr and Jeter and the rest go through bats like crazy now days. There's not tons of bats of some of these older guys out there though to enable cutting them all up. Same thing with uniforms.....

[Mark]

Have they tried cutting up any 52 Mantles or t206 Wagners for chase cards? Would card collectors find that acceptable?

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Mark

Have they tried cutting up any 52 Mantles or t206 Wagners for chase cards? Would card collectors find that acceptable?

Being that the 1952 Mantle is probably the most overrated "rookie" card in hobby history....I would be all for it.