New (old) Board Direction- IMPORTANT

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Posted By: leon

Hey Folks,
I am rewriting this to try to get the columning correct. I don't usually do this but I am going to cut and paste our founders response (Elliot) from the Board Direction thread. From Elliot:
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My 2 cents March 17 2005, 11:46 PM

I can see the pros and cons of going with a compartmentalized forum vs. a one board suits all forum. I think either one is workable, and in any event is not irreversible.

However, I do feel strongly that the topic area should be restricted to pre WWII (with the odd off topic conversation, of course). There are plenty of other forums that deal with the newer cards, and this forum was set up so us vintage collectors would have a discussion place. For as many of us that collect newer cards there as just as many (if not more) that collect hockey cards (for example). If we are going to have a sub-forum for newer cards, could we also have a sub-forum for discussing pre-Shakespearean English (the original forum members will know what this refers to) so I don't have to run around to a lot of different forums and I can find all my interests in one place. Also, could we add a stock market ticker, so when I'm on the board, i can check to see what's happening. Obviously, I know these are silly requests, but my point is where do we draw the line. My opinion is we stay with the original focus of the board, which is what drew us all to become regulars here....that is "pre WWII cards, primarily".
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With that being said I would like to tell a very brief account of the history of the board and how it started. About 5-6 years ago (and please don't hold my feet to the fire on time lines as I am getting old) I participated on a Pre-WWII Baseball card chatboard called "Fullcount Baseball". It was run by two current board members John Spencer and Mike Williams. It was a great place to talk about our Pre-WWII baseball cards but was somewhat rudimentary in it's functionality compared to the sites today and the current one we use. There was no required log in and it was a free for all. About 90% of the time it was all good but the other 10% was plagued with childish 4 letter words and poor content. Eventually John Spencer said he didn't want to do it anymore so about 3-4 years ago there were 2 boards formed. They were formed immediately after the demise of the Fullcount Board so there could still be a place to talk about Pre-WWII baseball cards. One was this one and one was formed by Mike Williams on Yahoo. I was a fairly major contributor to the Fullcount Board and looked at both of the brand new boards and decided this one was best because of functionality and "look". Even at that time I believed one board was better than two, as I do today. Both Mike and Elliot were, and are still, good hobby friends. My decision was based purely on functionality. I spoke with Mike and he agreed one board was better and abandoned the Yahoo board for this one. If I am not mistaking I was the first poster on this board, whether that thread is still there or not is irrelevant but I am just showing that I have been a long time contributor. I remember Tbob trying to get me to go to the Yahoo board but I felt this forum was better, operationally. I also realized that I was a total of 1 vote and the folks in our space are, for the most part, very intelligent, and can make their own minds up. I still tried to sway folks to this board though. I have gone back about 5 times and re-read the recent Direction thread about what everyone wants. It is obvious I am not going to make everyone happy and that's ok at this point.

About a month ago the Board had a name change to what it is today, Vintage Baseball Collecting, to more accurately reflect what it has become. Bill has made many positive changes to the board and has carried the torch well. It's appreciated by almost everyone, including me. It's time for change though. We are going back to why the board was originally formed, and what I think about 97% of us want, a place to talk about Pre-WWII Baseball cards, primarily. Bill was being his normal nice self and trying to make everyone happy. He did pretty good at it too. I, on the other hand, have been a little more outspoken about having the board be a little more focused. With that being said we are going to go back to one board only. The new board, that I and Brian McQueen created, will be done away with today. The name of this board is going to go back to "Pre-WWII Vintage Baseball Cards" or something very close to that. It will have "cards" in it though. It will be moderated as such too. I feel that ONE board and ONE forum is best for the future health of the site. It was founded on that premise and it's going back to that premise. If you don't like that well..."sorry" about it. In speaking with Elliot, yesterday on the phone, he told me he left the address/url as a number because, quite honestly, he didn't want everyone in the world finding it. This is a "not for profit" site (except my 6 figure moderator salary) so who cares if it grows as long as we keep the core Pre-WWII CARD addicts.

I know I come here to talk about cards and lately there have been a lot of other topics too. What I am going to implement is a "getting back to the basics" strategy and also allow occasional off topic posts. What is "occasional"? Well, it's sort of relative. If you are a lurker and have a question about a glove and post about it...then that's almost too much. You need to be contributing to the boards focus to get leniency on the off topic posts. If regular contributors (Jay, Julie, Adam etc...) post an off topic every few days or so then that will be permitted. The leniency will be in proportion to how much you contribute or join in discussions. I believe I was given the reins of this forum as I am known as being a somewhat fair (debatable) person and for my love of the hobby (cards). I will use my judgement on what and who to allow to post off topic stuff. Again, if you a frequent contributor you get more leniency than a lurker. For instance I WOULD have let the Bushing/Dimaggio bat thread continue as it was major hobby news and it brought to light very good info. As for someone posting a boxing card, a bat, or a glove, those posts will be moderated a bit more heavily and will only be permitted by regular contributors and occasionally. There are other forums for that stuff.

So to summarize we are going back to one board (this one) that will focus on Pre-WWII baseball cards. It is not personal that I am not starting all kinds of other links, forums, and threads to talk about other stuff, it's mainly because our roots are known, I prefer to manage only one site, and I don't give a rat's ass about a lot of the other junk that gets posted on the board. There will continue to be a "links" section where memorabelia and other stuff can be talked about in full. Brian McQueen, (my right hand person and moderator), nor myself, will be moderating those other sites. I hope everyone here will continue posting in an orderly manner and remember....if you LOVE PRE-WWII VINTAGE BASEBALL CARDS then this is THE place to be. If you don't then I would strongly recommend going somewhere else because you won't be happy here. regards....your collecting buddy....ps.....still not sure about the B/S/T thread....there will be one just no final decision yet...

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Posted By: leon

for deleting 3 folks acceptance posts but this new thread is columned correctly, says the same thing, and you don't have to scroll back and forth to read it. It took me 15 friggin minutes to retype it though regards all

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Posted By: Ted

and post if I have anything to offer, but can anybody recommend a decent board that includes 1950s cards and/or 50s cards of other sports? Since they are considered off topic now, perhaps you should just email me with suggestions. Thanks.

Ted
He who so shall, so shall he who!

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I think its a great idea Leon. I do have another idea/suggestion for the board but id rather ask you privately beforehand,so please email me when you read this

PS your email on the front page where it says "you can contact the moderator directly here" is different than your regulat email address.Is it right or is it just a typo?

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Posted By: leon

It was not my intention to kick anyone off of this board. I hope over time you will come over more to the "dark" side You know me personally and know I would never want to kick any good folks off of the board....regards

ps...the mail to email me at the top of the page is a type...the one on this post is good though...

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Kicked off?

I read it as "you haveta contribute to pre-war discussion to earn the right to post O/T.

No?

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Posted By: ramram

Sorry a good thing has to come to an end. I thought the diversity of vintage material is what made this site so good. Is scrolling down a page to find the topics of interest really becoming that difficult that it's worth alienating so many collectors? I don't even look for other sites because I could always learn so much about just about all vintage items. Just like getting a new auction catalogue that has a wide variety of early material, it was always fun to see and learn about the items you didn't collect knowing that some day you might know enough about it to allow you to feel comfortable branching over. Leon, you for one should know how boring it would be to only collect one type of card yet you want to limit everybody else who loves the variety of vintage items. I think everybody grows board over time with collecting one item and then branches into other areas. Is it not good to have input from other knowledgeable collectors in other areas before you go there? This site, which which has recently grown to such an important status that just about every big name contributes, is now going to be downsized to the status of being just another one of the multitude of card sites to pop up on a google search. I sure wish you would reconsider Leon.

Rob Morgan

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Posted By: Cap

Board Forum,

My two cents...

As a collector of pre-war cards and baseball memorabilia, I was always a 'lurker'. Only a few months ago did I decide to 'ring in' and contribute. I'm not an expert on pre-war cards but I have gained a great deal of education from this site. This site was an addiction of sorts.

For some reason, I am saddened by the news to only go 'pre-war baseball cards'.Perhaps I have become accustomed to the whole diverse world which surrounds pre-war baseball cards, the brothers and sisters which I lovingly call the 'memorabilia' business. I, as a reader found interest in what they had to say (even though I really don't do too much memorabilia stuff) and many did as well. I think a lot of people wanted to see a separation of sorts as was made known by the 'opinions' which you asked for in a previous thread.

I guess I feel there is just so much that can be said and discussed about cards from the late 1800's to the mid 1940's and I felt that there were only about a dozen people contributing to this site (many more read, but there are about a dozen that stand out and do all the threading) as they are the true experts and true die-hard collectors in this field. I still read the Vintage Cards Forum and there was maybe one or two new topics a day as the sports memorabilia people brought more to discuss and perhaps invaded the space of the 'traditionalists' which I understand and respect.

But also I feel that there were many suggestions made on how to break up this site and I think those suggestions went ignored because, as you said Leon, you have no interest in them. In that, you alienated a lot of people on the Board and there's a great chance that those people will be lost forever.

After all, it takes a special person to really truly understand and love pre-war cards (surveying fifty people in my life, they think my Old Judge Connie Mack is a waste of money...it cost me more than the car that I drive) and I will still lurk, but feel disappointed as well that something couldn't have been done to include others. I know Leon, it's your board and I guess it's going to go back to that 'private club' feel.

Thanks for letting me sound off.

Cap

Well, I quit my job so I could work alone, Then I changed my name to Sherlock Holmes- Bob Dylan.

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Posted By: Rich Klein

The Beckett.Com message boards have a vintage section in them and while they are not as strong as the main board, I would heartily recommend going there and starting discourse on 50's-60's cards.

I would love for those boards to become a starting point for all discussion 1947-1980 and encourage those with interest in those years to go there -- and remember to look for the vintage boards.

Regards
Rich

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Posted By: Ted

Leon: I don't feel at all like I have been kicked off in any way. I understand the tradition of the board, and that y'all are sticking to the original purpose. That is fine. My point was that I am forced into strictly a lurking mode, as my current knowledge does not allow me to make any meaningful contributions to the pre WWII issues. If anything, I might have something to say about the middle years, ie. those between the wars to end all wars.

I was hopeful that another path would be available to discuss cards that I still consider vintage, namely from just after WWII to the middle 60s. If the board considers only those before WWII as vintage, then maybe my primary interest and area of expertise could be called Classic.

In any event, I asked for advice on a board to discuss my "classic" years not because I will never return here, but so I can contribute and learn more about the majority of my holdings.

I shall return, to lurk.

Ted
He who so shall, so shall he who!

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Leon, how many posts about Pre-WWII baseball cards do I have to make before I'm allowed to mention Jean Shrimpton on this board? Is there a specific ratio (7:1, 15:1), or do you play it by ear?

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Posted By: steve k

I'm not sure what the "complaining" about the "new" forum is all about as though it is changing. I have been a member here for over a year and except for an occasional thread about a 52 Mantle, it has always primarily been a pre-WW2 baseball card forum. I don't hardly remember a single thread about other 50s and 60s cards which wasn't deleted. My only two cents "complaint" is that most, the vast majority, of collectors here also collect some 50s and 60s cards and it would have been fun to discuss those cards as well with other members here.

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Posted By: Cap

Steve K...

You have been a reader for a year and you haven't noticed a shift in this Forum of late--over the last three months?

Are you sure you are commenting on the right Board?

There wouldn't be a complaint if it was pretty much all 'Pre-War' baseball.

Cap

Well, I quit my job so I could work alone, Then I changed my name to Sherlock Holmes- Bob Dylan.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Cards ONLY!!!

Hooray!!

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Posted By: leon

What this board started out to be and what I want it to get back to is "primarily" cards. If you contribute in any way then you can also post some off topic stuff. It will never be a memorabelia board though. Does that mean if a board contributor finds a cool 1890's workmans glove he can't post here about it? Of course not.....he/she can post about O/T stuff as long as they participate in other card discussions too. Are we going to lose a few folks? Maybe, but I hope not. John D asked me a question earlier about posting something like "what's the best Philly outfied of all time?"....that too would be ok....there is almost NOTHING about vintage baseball that will be banned. I just want a little more focus towards cards.....If SCDA has a major lawsuit can it be posted here? Of course....that's major news.....I don't want ya'll to think this is ONLY vintage cards but do want you to think it will be "primarily" vintage. If you are a contributor you get a lot of slack about O/T stuff. Let's try it and see how it goes.....thanks

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Posted By: Ben

I thought the diversity of vintage material is what made this site so good. Is scrolling down a page to find the topics of interest really becoming that difficult that it's worth alienating so many collectors?

I agree with you, Rob. We have links at the top of the page to buy/sell/trade, vintage links, forum FAQ's, and even the Old Cardboard website. By adding an "off topic" or "everything else" link to an additional forum on this site, where everything not specifically relating to cards could be discussed, the new regime would save themselves alot of time weeding out and censoring posts irellevant to CARDS ONLY. Also, we'd see a much more focused discussion in the main forum - people who like to post about ebay frauds, 60's cards, grading companies, upcoming auctions & shows and the like, would have a place where they can feel free to post about that stuff without muddling up the focus of the main board. Leon and Brian, I urge you to consider this small addition.

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Posted By: leon

Everything you mentioned about me not wanting on this board are ALL THINGS I WANT ON THIS BOARD. I am going to say this till I am blue in the face. I want EBAY SCAMS, I want PSA vs SGC vs GAI (some), I want EVERYTHING except personal attacks and instigating of fights. PLEASE give us a chance.....we want EVERYTHING that has been.......albeit maybe a little more card focused. I DON'T WANT THIS TO BE A CARD ONLY SITE AND BORING......thanks


edited to say these are all good board topics so I would prefer not to take them off of this board and onto a link....

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Posted By: CAP

Leon,

I'm absolutely confused and I think others are as well...you say: "I DON'T WANT THIS TO BE A CARD ONLY SITE AND BORING", but re-reading the original text, brings forth statements like: "one board that will focus on Pre-WWII baseball cards" and "getting back to the basics strategy" and: "a place to talk about Pre-WWII Baseball cards". Nowhere in the text does it say anything outside cards can be discussed? You say you would have let the Bushing scenario go on, but other items may be edited out. So what is allowed? Post war cards? Autographs? Authenticators 'gaffaws'? Will Richard Simon be welcome here?

Sorry Leon...I guess I love this site and I love what it has become. I do kind of feel that the site will lose something if limited in such ways and I really don't understand what can and cannot be discussed here.

Thanks Leon.

Cap



Well, I quit my job so I could work alone, Then I changed my name to Sherlock Holmes- Bob Dylan.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

I can appreciate what Leon is trying to accomplish. Trying to make everyone happy is not possible and even a compromise is going to alienate some. I collect pre war through the 50’s. I would love it if topics could cover that span of time. Thankfully I have a little knowledge in the pre-war issues so that I can participate though I find myself learning far more than teaching or contributing.

I have little to no interest in memorabilia or non-baseball card topics. I would hope that these topics would disappear faster than topics on post war cards. But I am honestly having trouble deciphering the board rules, which seem to be neither totally specific nor definite. Which means they are open to much interpretation by the posters, assuming they have read these rules, and therefore is going to require a great deal of time for the moderators to keep the board focused.

I feel that the reporting of potential ebay scams of all kinds not limited to counterfeits/reprints, hijacked accounts, altered cards, bogus second chance offers, should be reported here every time they are noticed. However the person making the post, baring undisputable evidence, is only providing an opinion, so as to not accuse someone of a crime who might be innocent. Instead of starting new threads each time, it would be great to have a thread that stays at the top of the forum where all of the scams can be listed in one neat place in a chronological order.

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Posted By: PASJD

Leon, with great respect, you are not being clear, in my opinion. First you say you want to refocus the board on cards. Then later in the thread you say cards only would be "boring." Then, you appear to be saying whether someone is "allowed" to post off-topic is going to depend on your subjective assessment of how much that person has "contributed" to the discussion on cards. I don't know what that means. If I post, "anyone get anything good lately?", is that a "contribution"? If I buy a card and post an image of it, is that a "contribution"? If I post a link to an ebay auction and ask "anyone think this is real?", is that a "contribution"? Or do I have to ask some probing question, or come up with the answer to someone else's probing question, to be deemed to "contribute"? My tendency has been to read all the card posts with great interest but to post more on other topics because I don't presume to have the expertise of others on some of the more arcane card subjects. So is this now a board for pre-war "experts" only? I guess I am now reluctant to post anything else for fear it will be censored, so I will not post anything futher.

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Overall, I agree with the direction Leon is attempting to take the board to. I think that trying to get back to the board's original intent is a good idea.

The only point that I do have to disagree with (If I read Leon's post correctly,If not then I apologize) is the proposed policy of O/T posting. To allow regular contributers to occasionally post O/T threads, but to be stricter with newbies is just wrong. Shouldn't the rules of the board apply to all posters old and new? Isn't that keeping with the spirit of community? What about NO off-topic posts? How about we disallow O/T threads altogether and if a poster doesn't like it, then too bad. If this is a Pre-War Baseball site then what place do topics unrelated to Pre-War Baseball collecting have here at all..ever?

It's my understanding that this board was created to discuss Pre-War Baseball Collecting, not other sports, contemporary sports figures/issues, politics, movies, blah, blah, blah. I think a somewhat strictly moderated forum about Pre-1940 0r 1950 Baseball Cards, Photographs, and General Memorabilia should be sufficient. If folks want to to talk about 50's-80's cards, Barry Bonds,Other sports, etc., no hard feelings, just find another forum that suits your collecting interests. Contemporary topics related to grading, auctions and scams should be allowed ,at least to a point, as these issues do affect our hobby. I'm not trying to chastise anyone personally, just sharing my opinion as a forum contributer.

FINAL IMPORTANT NOTE:

O/T threads are hurting this board, but lack of pre-war baseball topics is what's really killing it. When I first came to this board in 2003 it was alive with discussion about pre-war cards, photos, finds, personal collecting habits, 19th century baseball, etc. If we can't come up with enough pre-war baseball collecting topics (I'm guilty of this myself), then nothing Leon or anyone else does will save this forum. Not that grading/scams/auctions topics don't have there place, but I would venture a guess that over the last few months to a year they account for the majority(3-1 in my estimation) of the threads posted on this board. I may be wrong about this too, but I also seem to remember a far greater number of veteran collectors posting here, who rarely seem to post anymore.

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Posted By: leon

As someone in sales, and that makes my living by communicating, I guess I haven't done a good job here. I want this to be a predominantly Pre-WWII Baseball card and card related site. The caption under the title says-

"Hello to all visitors! This is a moderated forum for the discussion of primarily pre-WWII baseball cards and related topics. It will be moderated mainly to keep its focus. You can directly contact the moderator"


So please show me where it says we are ONLY going to talk about cards? What does the word "primarily" mean? As for O/T I pretty much mean exactly what I said. Regular posters will get leniency with O/T as they contribute to the board. By contributing I am not saying that you EVER have to start a thread or try to be an expert or something. Just participate, that's all. If anyone wants to leave because we are talking about what this board was formed for then "adios" and I am sorry you are going to leave. I'm moderating one board and it's a Vintage Baseball Card board...with off topics permitted occasionally. I wish it were so black and white as to come up with definite rules but it's not quite that easy. I am sure I am not explaining myslelf clearly again so am not opposed to more questions or criticism's or critiquing. It's all ok....regards all

ps...btw, Adam...this board was formed to talk about Pre-WWII Baseball "cards" not "collecting"....

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Posted By: CAP

I give up (waving white flag). I just don't understand. As much as I love vintage cards (my prized collection), the board Rules (and lack of it) and direction (what ever that my be), is so unclear that it's beyond irritating. I think I may fit into the 'Adios' category.

Happy Trails! (a loyal VBC member))

Cap

This is the end....- The Doors

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I don't know why anyone is threatening to leave. It seems clear to me that if you at least participate in the card threads you will be given leeway to post and participate in OT threads....that doesn't seem hard to me. And it will serve to generate more discussion in the card threads, which I'm sure is Leon's objective.

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Posted By: robert a

Dan.
I agree with you.
This doesn't seem confusing to me. Leon is trying to direct this board back to what it was. If folks want to leave, then they must not have liked the rules before, because the only changes, in my opinion have been over the course of the last few months.

Cap...stick around and hopefully everyone who loves vintage cards can learn from each other.
robert a

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Posted By: Gene Palmer

Holy Cow! I'm a lurker here because I'm also an idiot when it comes to vintage (pre-war, pre-anything, pre-whatever) cards. I don't contribute because I don't have anything to contribute yet. It would seem as though this is gonna be my only and last post because you don't want any new members here. Wrong conclusion? Not in my eyes. Just remember when you don't allow the childern to live the society dies.
And I was really enjoying this forum too. Oh well, it's only cardboard.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

well Iam not sure who we are all trying to please here ,surely there has to be a happy medium somewhere. I for one could care less about a Mickey Mantle RC or any other 50's -60's cards as far as discussing.

I have 2 Kalines a 55 and 56 in 8's and a couple of Willie Horton rc's and some unopened packs of 68-74 , glossy football and hoards of 3d's... things of when I started collecting, so what! These give me my origins of collecting and bring back some extra memories of my parents being around and all those times that they took me to the stores. While these stories are neat, the appropriate time of mentioning is when the post of how you got started. Though I havent yet participated in those in the past , I do like the "aw shucks "type stories, when related.

Though I started the anybody get anything posts, a couple of people used that post afterward and by the way gotten better replies then I did ,(guess my name hasnt surfaced enough yet)I think it would be fun to have different hobbyist take turns staring this thread on a weekly basis.

One of the reason I started it was to help broaden the talk of why we come here... PRE WAR BASEBALL CARDS . I'd be lying if I too wasn't trying to be nosy of your new finds, it also helps me find cards that I may need for my collection and could create some interesting trades and THIS HAS HAPPENED !!!.

Though I too like the occasional Plancich-Bushing type stories, I come here to talk about PRE WAR BASEBALL CARDS and participate then only.

Good Evening
-Dan

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Posted By: Brian McQueen

As expected, there's a lot of concern over Leon's announcement today however I think a lot of it is needless to be honest. Our "new" direction is actually the "old" direction that the site used to be all about. We're essentially trying to recapture the original focus of our site which was primarily vintage cards and topics relating to that. So this isn't really anything new that we haven't all been a part of before. The goal is to simply regain that focus the forum originally had.

Many of you are upset because you're afraid that many of the popular topics on this site such as Ebay issues, grading companies, the Nationals...etc..etc...won't be allowed under this direction. However these are the topics we're actually trying to encourage as all of these examples pertain directly to vintage baseball cards.

Also, the goal is to not make anyone feel unwelcome, we're just trying to narrow the forum's focus is all. When I came here, I knew very little about cards, but I contributed to discussion by asking questions and providing what knowledge I did have when applicable. When we say that regular posters will be allowed some leniency, its because we are trying to establish a little more of a flexible environment than we had in the past. O/T threads used to be deleted altogether on the forum and we would like to not have to be that harsh. Now we're leaving open the possibility of straying once in a while....just without it becoming a regular habit.

We feel that our site will be more enjoyable in the long run by making this movement back to the forum's origins. It's hard to deny the problems we have had as of late because the forum has tried to include additional subject matter. By refocusing our forum upon its original intent, we'll be alleviating problems that we've had recently such as users complaining about having to sift through too much content, a duplication of efforts because we tried to insert additional forum pages, thread hijacking/evolution into O/T issues, in-house fighting, etc..etc...

Hope this helps explain things a little better....

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Posted By: steve k

Cap - Are you are referring to all the threads regarding memorabilia? Of course that was noticed but since I don't collect memorabilia, I didn't pay much attention to it.
As far as collecting, much of my collection is 50s and 60s baseball cards. However I have been focusing the past year, not only with that, but with pre-WW2 baseball cards as well starting with the popular Goudeys and t206s, and have been "branching out" into other pre-WW2 baseball cards. Don't own any OJ's yet but plan on grabbing some in the near future. So my interest here is for baseball cards. But if liking a non-baseball card related thread, then I open it up. If not liking other threads about whatever else is posted, then I just scroll down.

Leon - You mentioned that you were in sales. I've been in sales my whole life and although owning a company now for a number of years, I still consider myself a "salesman." Maybe that's why I understand you just fine - one salesman to another :)

Steve Katz

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Posted By: ramramram

For clarification sake, let's say some newbies (as opposed to a "contributer") start separate threads on -

Negro League photos

an 1880's baseball tintype

a 1900 scorebook and scorecard

a ring bat from the 19th century

an unidentified team photo from the 1890's

Are these to be banished? condemned? not responed to by other board members for fear of not conforming?


Rob M.

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Posted By: leon

For clarification sake, let's say some newbies (as opposed to a "contributer") start separate threads on -

Negro League photos

an 1880's baseball tintype

a 1900 scorebook and scorecard

a ring bat from the 19th century

an unidentified team photo from the 1890's

Are these to be banished? condemned? not responed to by other board members for fear of not conforming
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I would say these are judgement calls but I would lean towards not allowing them too much from a person ONLY posting about them.

Negro League photos- not unless there is some card related issue with any of them.
Have seen scorecards have card conotations so those might be in.
ring bat- probably not
unid'd photo of 1890's...maybe as there could be some players on cards in it

you gave examples so there are your answers. Next......


..And you can call it what you want but I don't call it banishing, comdemning or morally incorrect what we are doing. I call it moderating. If you don't want to talk about what the board was formed for then that's fine. We are and I still hope you join us.....

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Posted By: ramram

Jaime L., Jason W., Rob L., et. al. -

Any idea where we can take our toys to get our fix now? Seems we're not wanted anymore.

Rob M.

In the business world this is known as a hostile takeover. Grab the company, cut out all the personnel for the benefit of the select inner circle and run the business in the ground.

Where have you gone Bill C.?

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Posted By: wesley

Leon and Brian, I think you guys made the right decision. There are plenty of places to talk about modern cards, game used equipment, autographs, other sports, etc. Thank you for keeping this board for what it was originally intended for....prewar baseball cards.




Rob, Have you tried the forum that was designed specifically for memorabilia?

http://www.network54.com/Forum/379976

There seems to be some pretty lively dsicussions there.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I still don't see why we can't compartmentalize this group into pre-war baseball cards and pre-war memorabilia. I think that the majority of posters to this group are interested in more than just the cards. Maybe Leon could find someone to moderate the memorabilia side so he doesn't have to deal with it, or just leave it unmoderated. I think it would be essential to leave it at pre-war era though because there really is no place (at least that I know of) on the net to discuss these items. Whereas there are tons of places to talk about modern cards.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

The site you listed isn't a memorabilia site, but rather a game-used site. I already tried to ask questions regarding store model bats which I thought I might be able to get an answer to, and all I got was crickets chirping. It certainly isn't the place to be asking questions about nineteenth century photos and the like.

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Posted By: leon

Just see the link above. There's already a memorabelia forum that does pretty good.I have looked at it but not too often. I imagine some regular posters such as yourself will post about memorabelia every now and then on this board. It's interesting to me sometimes. ....take care...

woops...just saw your post.....I probably wouldn't have an issue with a link to a memorabelia Network54 forum if someone wanted to start one...

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Posted By: Eric

Hey-
Eric here from the game used forum (http://www.gameusedforum.com). Sorry no one answered your questions. We seem to have a lot of new blodd over on the site, so why don't you try re-posting and let's see if anyone can help.
Thanks and I hope to see you there
Eric
moderator, game used forum

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Posted By: runscott

Leon created a new board to discuss pre-war cards. It did fine and the old board continued to thrive as well.

Leon then deleted the new board he had created and re-defined the old board to match the focus of the new board he had recently deleted.

If you want the old board back, simply re-build it. If you want something that is focused on pre-war baseball memorabilia, build that instead - but you might find that you continue to hear crickets chirping. I have been discussing memorabilia via email with other collectors, and an occasional post on the "game-used" board. Maybe we need to combine our email lists so that we know who collects what, and simply send out "posts" to a common distribution list? If such communication gets big, then form a board.

Leon - hopefully you won't delete this. This is currently the best way for the disenfranchised to get together and decide where to go.

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Posted By: leon

I have absolutely no issue with helping facilitate others interests into discussions. If ya'll want to start a forum for that stuff that would be great and I will link to it. I sort of feel bad for the "memorabelia only" folks on the board..... regards

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Posted By: ramram

Exactly Dan.

BTW - I'm interested in "Vintage" everything. I collect a few cards but in my mind, vintage memorabilia ties right in with the cards.

I think there's another factor Leon is not taking into account. There are a lot of associations that have been made on this board. In my case I feel that I can ask Scott F. questions about equipment...or Jason W. about very early team items...or Jaime L. about CDV's...or even Barry Sloate about just about anything early baseball. There's a powerful amount of knowledge that we all benefit from. I can also feel comfortable dealing with these people. I'm sure many others feel the same. I just can't help but feel that there is a small inner circle that is creating this situation and they don't realize how many others contribute and are interested in more than just cards. Elliot pulled some numbers (site hits) together on occassion just to show how popular this site has become. I guarantee it included loads of vintage "collectors".

Rob M.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I'm not much for a cards-only board. If it becomes that, you can count on the viewership dropping dramatically.

If you have a board where Richard Simon, Josh Evans, Rob Lifson, Barry Sloate and Bob Lemke come to read and post about baseball memorabilia, I don't see what's the problem. As Ann Landers said, if it ain't broken don't fix it.

If you want to isolate baseball cards, have a Pre-War baseball part and a Pre-War baseball memorabilia part.

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Posted By: runscott

Most pre-war card collectors end up eventually developing interests in other associated baseball memorabilia from the same period - photos, scorecards, pins, gloves, etc.

Leon is not one of those collectors, and you can't fault him for it. He proved that a "card only" board would work, as evidenced by the board he recently deleted. I recommend creating a vintage memorabilia board - Leon seems ameniable to providing a link at the top of this board, so you should get good viewership.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

What happens is what happens, and I can live with it.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I just want to say that I have been on this board from the start and throughly enjoyed the site reading and contributing. When I first got on the board I was not very knowledgeable about most of the sets but by reading and asking questions I have became very knowledgeable about T206, T202 and many other sets.

For all you "newbie"/ "lurkers" never be afraid to chime in or ask questions on the board, this is the best way to learn. There is also the link for newbies to help them with the basics of the forum. If you are afraid to post email one of the posters in the topic you are interested. I have yet to encounter a contributor that is not willing to offer information willingly.

I have found that in the last 6 months or so I have skipped over many of the threads in the forum, they had no interest to me. This never seemed to happen in the past. I am in support of getting the direction back to Pre-WWII cards. To me the board was becoming too board and lost it's focus. I am not quite sure what the changes will be but it looks like they are going in the right direction.

Lee

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Posted By: leon

Is that NO ONE is afraid to post for fear of being censored. I really do rule with a very light hand, I promise. I assure you I am NOT censor happy. Post some stuff and see. I have already told some folks that if people get too far O/T then I will politely email them the first time or two, depending on the situation. I won't just delete threads for no reason. That would be stupid. I hope all of the newbies still feel welcome on OUR site. And I will say it again for the 100th time. THIS IS NOT A CARD ONLY SITE. It is predominantly a card site though. If anyone doesn't feel welcome I apologize as that is not my intention. If a newbie chimes in on a thread and says "neat looking card"....then that would make them a board participant. I probably won't explain myself too much more as I think I have confused some people. It really all boils down to I want this site to be a little more card focused. That's all. If you think that means CARD ONLY then you can't read. regards all

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

So much for my "Cards Only - Hooray" post.

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Posted By: Rob L

Well, I guess this is my last post as I can't offer any topics that are card related. I started posting on this board a couple of years ago after purchasing a 1904 tintype of several cubs players during a trip to Brooklyn. I remember at one point asking whether I should be posting as my collecting interests were predominantly 19th Century memorabilia. Everybody made me feel very welcome and I have tried to keep my posts related to 1930s or earlier (okay, maybe I did post a few too many crappy Ruth autographs - I just found them funny). You all have been a great wealth of knowledge and have helped me in many aspects of my collection. I agree that alot of the recent bashing on this board, particularly as it related to memorabilia authenticating, was ridiculous and very tiring.

Well this could go on, but that would also be tiring. I wish you all well in your collecting endeavors. Well, as my last ditch effort for my research project, if anyone has photos, dimensions or other information on 19th century baseballs, please contact me at:

loefflerrd@aol.com or rloeffler@advgeoenv.com

Take care all,

Rob L

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

It is true. I can't read. Hooked on cards works for me. But you did say "primarilly", Leon. I just thought primarilly = almost exclusively. But it doesn't mean much more than half.

"We are going back to why the board was originally formed, and what I think about 97% of us want, a place to talk about Pre-WWII Baseball cards, primarily". - Leon, 3/20/05

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Posted By: Elliot

Rob L., Rob M., and others. My understanding is that you will still be welcome here. Regarding what "primarily" means, I think you have faith in Leon and his vision for the board. If you felt welcome before you should be welcome now. I think all (most?) of us know when we are getting too far off-topic. Rob L. in his post identified most of the areas of Leon's concern....all the bashing over the memorabilia authentication, and one or two too many fake Ruth sigs. My opinion is that the occasional post about a fake Ruth sig is ok (quite funny and educational) but too many takes the forum off of it's main focus.

Regarding Leon's comments about newbies given less slack, I think the prime example are the first time posters who ask about Barry Bonds cards. Also, it's only fair that those who contribute through posting be given more slack. It shouldn't be that hard to make an occasional post, no matter your knowledge level. If everybody had the attitude that they wanted to lurk, then there would be nothing to read.

I think everybody should give it a try, I think you might be pleasantly surprised how little things have changed. Also, remember if you don't like, Leon won't be able to put up with the stable of miscreants for more than about a year (my guess) and the next moderator will take the forum in a slightly different direction, and also continue to make improvements.

Also, I think everybody has to keep in mind that the moderator position is a volunteer one, which takes up quite a bit of time, and that the forum does not have any revenue, which should mean that we cut the moderator a lot of slack. Bill and I have not seen a lot of qualified people who wished to be moderator.

Whichever direction the forum takes in the future, I think it's a great place to be because of the contributors.

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

First I would like to say thanks to Bill for all his hard work and making this a BETTER board than it ever was.

I too was one of the first members of this board and came over from the Full Count bard. I don't post anymore because of all the personal attacks and just plan rudeness from many of the regular posters. I lurk everyday just as many of the top people in our great hobby do. I wish this site could be a lot more focused as it was before. I do know that there are a lot of autograph, memorabilia, and photo collectors out there that post very regularly but my question to you who fit in these categories is, What brought you to this vintage baseball CARD board in the first place? I do understand that many of use collect other stuff that we love just as much if not more, (my other love is comic books) but do you think it would be appropriate to talk about comic books here? I think not, not even the Jackie Robinson books. I think the point that I'm trying to making is people like David Rudd, (no offense David), who has helped me out with a 19th century photo, (for free I might add and off the board!), are great people to have around that are not active in the CARD hobby. But, what was his reason for checking this site out in the first place? He has or had a very amazing knowledge and love of the make-up and design of pre-war CARDS. So what I'm asking everyone is to try and remember why you came here in the first place and maybe you can realize why you should stay and post. I for one am back in!!!! I will try and post as often as I can. Maybe it can be fun again. I hope some of the old posters will see this and feel the same. I have talked with many collectors at the shows who only lurk and are afraid they will get beat up here and don't post. So you know who you people are, come on in, lets have some fun. Leon you are the man for taking the bull by the horns. You are the man for the job. Ok I'm getting off the box now and ready to be a contributer to a vintage baseball CARD board with related topics.

Sorry for the long post but dam I feel better.

Trevor Hocking
trevor@synergystudios.tv