What pre-war guy do you feel should be in the HOF....I'll start with Jake Daubert

[tedzan]

It appears to me that two great Brooklyn 1st basemen have been overlooked for the HOF...Jake Daubert and Gil Hodges. Daubert played for Brooklyn (1910-1918).
Traded to Cincinnati (1919-1924). A lifetime .303 hitter, he batted better than .300 for 10 of his 15 seasons. Leading the NL in 1913 with .359 and 1914 with .329
averages. With the livelier baseball in play, in 1922 he hit .336, hit 12 HR's, and led the Major Leagues with 22 Triples. Also, Jake had an exceptional fielding record
that stands out as one of the best in baseball for 1st basemen.
In the controversial 1919 World Series, he got 3 hits in the 1st game and 2 hits in the last game to help Cinci win those Series' games


Unfortunately, Jake's BB career was cut short by his death on Oct 9, 1924. Some attribute his untimely death to having been beaned earlier in the 1924 season.



......





Shown here are the various T-brand backs that the T205 Daubert is found with. If any one here knows of any more than these 6 backs, please chime in.


OK....let's hear of your choices of pre-war ballplayers that you feel should be in the HOF, but for whatever reasons have been overlooked ?


TED Z

[Exhibitman]

Frank "Lefty" O'Doul
Frank "Lefty" O'Doul is the greatest eligible position player not in the Hall of Fame. Over 970 games (30 shy of the 1,000 used for official records) from 1919 to 1934, Lefty averaged .349, winning two batting championships and hitting .398 one season, and setting the NL record for most hits in a season, which still stands. Not in any way a "homer", Lefty hit .352 at home and .347 on the road, proving he belongs among the elite hitters in history. After his days in the majors ended, he returned to the Pacific Coast League, where he was the longtime manager of the San Francisco Seals and later the San Diego and Seattle teams. Lefty was instrumental in organizing Japanese baseball, whose premiere team, the Giants, was named in his honor. Lefty is one of only 3 Americans in the Japanese baseball hall of fame. He is also one of the few players to have played for the Yankees, Dodgers and Giants while all 3 were in New York City. Lefty died on December 7, 1969. His epitaph reads "He was here at a good time and had a good time while he was here."





Lefty trying to teach Gary Cooper to bat lefthanded for "Pride of the Yankees":

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Frank "Lefty" O'Doul
Frank "Lefty" O'Doul is the greatest eligible position player not in the Hall of Fame. Over 970 games (30 shy of the 1,000 used for official records) from 1919 to 1934, Lefty averaged .349, winning two batting championships and hitting .398 one season, and setting the NL record for most hits in a season, which still stands. Not in any way a "homer", Lefty hit .352 at home and .347 on the road, proving he belongs among the elite hitters in history. After his days in the majors ended, he returned to the Pacific Coast League, where he was the longtime manager of the San Francisco Seals and later the San Diego and Seattle teams. Lefty was instrumental in organizing Japanese baseball, whose premiere team, the Giants, was named in his honor. Lefty is one of only 3 Americans in the Japanese baseball hall of fame. He is also one of the few players to have played for the Yankees, Dodgers and Giants while all 3 were in New York City. Lefty died on December 7, 1969. His epitaph reads "He was here at a good time and had a good time while he was here."





Lefty trying to teach Gary Cooper to bat lefthanded for "Pride of the Yankees":

Adam

Lefty's got my vote. That photo of Lefty with Gary Cooper is tremendous. Thanks for sharing it with us.





TED Z

[Jay Wolt]

How bout Cecil Travis. Had a .314 lifetime average. In '41 had 218 hits hitting .359.
The next 3 years he served his country, when he played ball again in '46 he hit .315

[David W]

Mickey Vernon - adding in the 44 and 45 season, he would have had a minimum of 2800 hits.....
Would that have been enough? I don't know.

[howard38]

[/

[esd10]

my vote is for jake daubert

[White Borders]

From Wikipedia:

William Frederick Dahlen (January 5, 1870 – December 5, 1950), nicknamed "Bad Bill" for his ferocious temperament, was an American professional baseball player and manager. He played as a shortstop in Major League Baseball for four National League teams from 1891 to 1911. After twice batting over .350 for the Chicago Colts, he starred on championship teams with the Brooklyn Superbas and the New York Giants.

At the end of his career he held the major league record for career games played (2,443); he ranked second in walks (1,064, behind Billy Hamilton's 1,187) and fifth in at bats (9,033), and was among the top ten in runs batted in (1,234), doubles (414) and extra base hits (661). He was also among the NL's top seven players in hits (2,461; some sources list totals up to 2,471), runs (1,589), triples (163) and total bases (3,447).

After leading the league in assists four times and double plays three times, he set major league records for career games (2,132), putouts (4,850), assists (7,500), total chances (13,325) and double plays (881) as a shortstop; he still holds the record for total chances, and is second in putouts and fourth in assists. His 42-game hitting streak in 1894 was a record until 1897, and remains the fourth longest in history and the longest by a right-handed NL hitter.

Best Regards,
Craig

[Bugsy]

I would put Al Reach in the Hall. He did an incredible amount to promote the game...almost as much as Al Spalding.

"Born in London, Reach first attracted attention on Brooklyn baseball diamonds in the 1850s. In 1865, he was brought to Philadelphia for $25 a week "expenses," making him one of the earliest professionals. A second baseman, although by most accounts a lefthanded thrower, he was considered an excellent batter. In 1871, when Philadelphia won the first National Association championship, he hit .348. After retiring as a player, he was one of the founders of the Phillies and served as team president from 1883 to 1902. He later was part owner of the Athletics. A sporting-goods company he founded in the 1870s prospered and eventually made him millions. In 1889 he sold out to A.G. Spalding, although he continued in an executive position. An annual baseball guide that he began in the 1880s was instrumental in developing interest in baseball statistics."

http://www.baseballlibrary.com/ballp...=Al_Reach_1840

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Jimmy Ryan without a question

[wolfdogg]

Originally Posted by HOF Auto Rookies

Jimmy Ryan without a question

+1

[wolfdogg]

William Ellsworth "Dummy" Hoy

[alanu]

Originally Posted by wolfdogg

+1

+1 on Jimmy Ryan and would add George Van Haltren

[Bugsy]

I also think Larry Doyle should get another look. A power hitting second baseman, who won an MVP and a batting title, and was the team captain during the Giants peak seasons. I think most people compare his numbers to other generations. You really have to consider the position he played and the role he played against his peers. He was a superstar for that generation...and alltime.

[CMIZ5290]

I would vote for ed reulbach...had an incredible winning percentage and a lifetime era of just over 2.00

[D. Bergin]

I'm amazed by how little support Carl Mays ever had for getting into the HOF.

5 20-win seasons, Lifetime ERA under 3.00. On top of that he was a pretty good hitting pitcher, going a lifetime .268. Batted .343 in almost 150 AB's in 1921.

Seemed to have a superior career to team-mate Waite Hoyt who got in the HOF over 40 years ago.

I'm sure the Chapman incident and his personality doomed his chances.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

I also think Larry Doyle should get another look. A power hitting second baseman, who won an MVP and a batting title, and was the team captain during the Giants peak seasons. I think most people compare his numbers to other generations. You really have to consider the position he played and the role he played against his peers. He was a superstar for that generation...and alltime.

I agree completely. But I'd also like to see Wilbur Cooper get some attention.

[Chris Counts]

Is it just my imagination, or are pre-war Hall of Fame debates more diplomatic than post-war Hall of Fame debates? I get the feeling that if we were talking about Luis Tiant, Tony Oliva and Minnie Minoso being in Cooperstown, there would already be a few comments complaining about how unworthy these candidates are — and how there's already too many players in the Hall of Fame. Personally, I say open the floodgates ...

As for pre-war players who are worthy, my list starts with Cecil Travis. Doesn't he have the third highest batting average ever for a shortstop? Isn't that enough to send him to Cooperstown? Some will argue he didn't play long enough, but while some other future HOFers (like Hal Newhouser and Lou Boudreau) were padding their stats against minor leaguers, he was busy fighting in the Battle of the Bulge ...

[T205Guy]

Ditto for Edward Marvin "Big Red" Reulbach! The Cubs could sure use him now...

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by White Borders

From Wikipedia:

William Frederick Dahlen (January 5, 1870 – December 5, 1950), nicknamed "Bad Bill" for his ferocious temperament, was an American professional baseball player and manager. He played as a shortstop in Major League Baseball for four National League teams from 1891 to 1911. After twice batting over .350 for the Chicago Colts, he starred on championship teams with the Brooklyn Superbas and the New York Giants.

At the end of his career he held the major league record for career games played (2,443); he ranked second in walks (1,064, behind Billy Hamilton's 1,187) and fifth in at bats (9,033), and was among the top ten in runs batted in (1,234), doubles (414) and extra base hits (661). He was also among the NL's top seven players in hits (2,461; some sources list totals up to 2,471), runs (1,589), triples (163) and total bases (3,447).

After leading the league in assists four times and double plays three times, he set major league records for career games (2,132), putouts (4,850), assists (7,500), total chances (13,325) and double plays (881) as a shortstop; he still holds the record for total chances, and is second in putouts and fourth in assists. His 42-game hitting streak in 1894 was a record until 1897, and remains the fourth longest in history and the longest by a right-handed NL hitter.

Best Regards,
Craig

Great choice.

Bill Dahlen is my T206 choice, also. Back in the early 1990's, I used to hoard his cards....thinking that eventually he would become a HOFer.


....


TED Z

[bcbgcbrcb]

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned the most obvious one yet, Shoeless Joe.........

[tedzan]

Joe's problem was that he did not permit ATC to portray him on any Major League tobacco card. Perhaps, if he had, he would be in the HOF


Unless, of course this centerfold is of Joe ...... did we ever resolve this mystery ?




T-Rex TED

[btcarfagno]

Jack Glasscock and Babe Adams.

Tom C

[Big Six]

Hal Chase...

[oldjudge]

Pete Browning and Dave Orr are my two choices.

[cfc1909]

Dahlen.jpgDahlenb.jpg

[packs]

I third Larry Doyle. He was the greatest National League second baseman to ever play in the majors when he retired. He led all National League second baseman in just about every offensive statistic. I feel like the best player at their position for a generation should be in the Hall of Fame.

[gorrister]

Smokey Joe Wood

[CMIZ5290]

Steve- spot on about joe wood...many hall of famers have said when he was on, he was virtually unhittable....

[esd10]

jake daubert was one of the greatest first baseman ever and a fine .303 lifetime batting average in a era of pitchers thats pretty good. his career was cut short bye his sudden death and forgotten bye the hof because everyone has passed on now that saw him play.

[bbcard1]

There are a few I could mention...most of which have been championed here. I have always liked Larry Doyle, Daubert, Donlin, etc. ...but realistically, there are probably those honored from that era who shouldn't be.

[danmckee]

Riggs Stephenson

[Kenny Cole]

I like Jake Daubert too, but come on. The reason he isn't in the HOF has nothing to do with his career being cut short.

He was 40 when he died. If his career was cut short, it wasn't by much. How about we talk about the fact that he was a great fielding 1B, was a positive influence best as I can tell, won two batting championships, etc. If that doesn't get him in it ain't happening.

He was also heavily involved in attempts to unionize the players duriing the teens (along with guys like Zimmerman), which I suspect didn't help him with the establishment when he was initially eligible for the HOF. He was dead when the HOF started voting and that, plus what I suspect was a bit of backlash for his unionization efforts = few HOF votes at the time. Now, almost no one knows who he was.

While I would be pleasantly surprised if he were to be elected, I'm not holding my breath. He had no power and is now lumped in with guys like Stuffy McInnis, who was very similar to Daubert but who has received no love here. Maybe this year will be different, but I have historically thought that the veteran's committee has been oblivious to things that were important at the time but not so much now. Daubert's stats (now the important thing) were pretty good in most categories, but they weren't exceptional in any. I wouldn't have any heartburn if he was elected, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

[esd10]

lave cross one of the greatest players of his time