Board's opinion on BST behavior

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Posted By: Seth B.

This is going to be an inflammatory topic, so I want to preface it by saying that I don't mean any of this as a personal attack. I hardly know you people. This is more of a general lament about some things I've noticed, and I want to see if everyone on the board has no problem with this (in which case I'll be quiet and good, and no peeps out of me), or if this is something others have noticed. So, here goes,
I have observed that the B/S/T is becoming more mercantilist, more people digging up things off of e-bay or from other unwitting sellers and immediately flipping them at marked up prices. We see this all the time, and I don't begrudge a buddy a buck. But I consider this the territory of dealers.
And frankly, seeing it on the B/S/T upsets me. This is a collector's board, and I hope it fosters collecting. But I see the BST used as a way to make money, pure and simple. My hopes for a B/S/T would be a way to help those looking for sets or cards find those cards. It's a way to connect collectors and help collections. Dealing, which is distinct from that, is fine, but my opinion is that it belongs on dealer websites, not on a collector's board buy/sell/trade.
Those are my two-cents.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I think your view is way off base. Understandable but way off base.

The BST isn't a charity, it is a way for board members to obtain items they want from other board members at a price that they find mutually satisfactory. If I find a card cheap and can flip it for more, who are you or anyone else to say that I am wrong, especially if the buyer is happy with the transaction?

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Posted By: joe

I see nothing wrong with this, if something interests me and I am ok with the price or trade requirements. No problem.

Joe

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Posted By: Anonymous

Looks like I may just shut up about this one.

Isn't there some line though between dealing and collecting, and aren't we supposed to come down on the collecting side?

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Posted By: Joann

In general I think it's okay. I wouldn't want it to turn into one giant commercial either, and like the human idea of collectors helping collectors - this is a tight little community and that thought is consistent with how I see the board. Having the BST turn into a giant billboard would kind of remind me of Snoopy's doghouse all decked in lights in the Charlie Brown Xmas show.

On the other hand... much of what goes on there sells. That means that there is someone that wanted it at that price and is happy with it. If the BST were like the ebay dime-dump days - page after page of listings with no response that you have to wade through to get to anything good - then I'd really not like it. But that's not been my experience with it. Most ads get at least some response.

I spent $400 on the BST this weekend (by the way, anyone want to buy some household furnishings? I need the cash, lol). I got things I have been looking for, or had trouble finding, etc. and was glad to pick up.

It's faster than ebay, cheaper for the seller, and I think it builds relationships between buyers and sellers. I have bought and sold cards on BST and most transactions have been with regular posters.

Not all the best cards and deals are on ebay. Unfortunately, I don't have enough time to comb through the various dealer sites and see what they have added since last time I looked - and this is where I find a lot of nice cards. If the BST can bring a little bit of the dealers to us, then I am all for that too as another positive attribute.

But I think I know what you mean - I just think we are still in some (subjectively) middle and good ground yet.

Joann

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Posted By: cmoking

Seth, I don't like at times either. However, it is the good old american way, and sometimes I do like it.

When I don't like it:
Person X outbids me on a card on ebay and then offers it on BST for twice the price. Ugh. I hate that.

When I do like it:
Person Y outbids someone else for a card, and offers it on BST for twice the price. but I'm willing to pay that price, and I buy it. In this instance, I've gotten a card that I would've missed. It costs me more, but I don't mind that since I wouldn't have gotten a chance at it.

I've bitched and moaned on this board like you have too. But I know I was selectively complaining because when it has benefited me, I'm more than happy.

There are other issues and other people that do bother me. This isn't the thread for that though

oh yea, I almost forgot...lol

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Some dealers are valued contributors to the Board's discussion, and many dealers also provide the service of bringing to your attention some items which you may have missed.

Dealers are also consultants, often anxious to offer insight and historical and other information to help with a collector's short and long term planning. Additionally, Board dealers (I believe) sell only items which they stand behind regarding authenticity.

So for the B/S/T a collector only has to have a feel for an items price. In many cases, a dealer is also a collector; just like in many cases a collector sells some items.

In this venue, I do not think that the consensus is "us vs. them". I believe it to be that a dealer expends quite a bit to bring options to you. And begrudging them a fair return for their effort is not appropriate. However, the determination of what is "fair" is debatable.

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Posted By: JIm Manos

Thanks for not using my name but I buy and sell cards all the time. Some i buy cheap and make good $ others I don't. I can't believe the **** I get for this. I am out to make a buck. But I find cards people want?? If I buy a card from you at $500 dollars and I think I can bring $800. It is helping another collector out and I make a few bucks. Sorry, if that make's bad behavior?? I have folks e-mailing me all the time there want lists to find them cards and then I get people up my ass because they sold me a card at well under the retail value. Great example harryWright(ebayer) bought the complete set of Warren studio's in a cabinet that was hard to tell what they were. On top of that there was a Spalding in the group which is the 12th card and uncataloged. He out bid me... I bet you see it forsale again for alot more than 13k. God Bless him...I wish I bid more... Don't buy from the individual if it bothers somebody so much. But don't belittle them for it... If I found a card you were looking for for 5 yrs and you had to pay me going rate or a premium would ya?? Most would...some won't, some complain. There is Chief's and Indians in this world. Each individual can choose what they want.. But don't condem them for it.

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Posted By: peter ullman

Some dealers are valued board members and some are not. I have been a collector for most of my life...first and foremost... a collector..I have bought cards with the intent to flip them for a profit to further my collection/habit...as most of you have. I think this is fine.

For someone to come on the board and say "I am not a collector...I am just out to make a profit." And then to lie to further their dealings! I have a problem with this and I wouldn't buy from them....but I will call them names and ridicule their inability to spell! This is just me. One aspect of the hobby that has always soured me is the ruthless attitude that all that matters is getting "the deal" or "the card" at any expense. I have never been this way...and this is probably why my collection is meager by this boards standards.

But there is a good way...and a bad way to do business...and there is such a thing as karma.

pete ullman

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Posted By: G.H. Counter

Jim, please don't take it personal, but sometimes you look like someone who think board users are simply stupid.
Trying to unload recent ebay winnings at 5-10x prices on the BST isn't a sin but people tend to think you are just another merchant trying to quick profit from this hobby instead of making a buck the old fashioned way.

I know of a board friend that was astonished when he received an email from you trying to sell an item (5x) that had just ended on ebay and that was formerly in his collection!
The same goes with a cabinet showing a young O'Rourke... It went for a bit less than 2k in two pretty recent major auction sales... Which everybody with an interest in this type of material surely didn't miss... Now you trying to sell it for 10x?

*The Spalding cdv part of the photo montage isn't the only known example.
That I know for sure!

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Posted By: JIm Manos

Let me tell you I don't continue to do this because I loose $. Don't buy it. If someone else buys something and sell's in 3 months or 1yr or 3 hour's that is there issue. If you don't want it, don't buy it. I don't have a problem of material not selling. As for the Warren studio's it is unknown to my knowledge. You must know there is more of them, but I bet the buyer will sell it for a profit. Maybe he will wait longer. Don't care... Early bird get's the worm. I already made $ on the O'Rourke piece, but thx's for your observation. Please tell me the auction the O'rourke Imperial cabinet cam from?? I bought from Rex Stark and he said he found in a estate. I am calling your bluff. Which auction did that sell at. Or are you calling Rex a liar??

Added I don't think board members are stupid but I do think many may miss item's for sale frm ebay or other places. I, me?? I would appreciate a guy e-mailing me a card that I may need or possible want. Most appreciate it but some don't. I don't care if it is 5 or 10 times the price don't buy it.. Someday I may find something that the buyer wants in his price range?? But I surely would not condem him for it. Even if he couldn't spell and was a dumb Carolina Grad.

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Posted By: Anson

It may also provide collectors a way to make up some ground towards getting the cards they REALLY want. Collectors can make savvy deals on Ebay, sell to a board member, and afford something that they wouldn't have been able to in the first place. Does that make them a dealer or a collector? I haven't done this using Ebay and the BST. But, I have bought cards, knowing I could sell them for more. In most cases, it was to afford something else that I wanted.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

I really have no problem with someone selling stuff on the board and making a profit. If the price seems unreasonable, the item will likely not move and will be discounted anyway. As long as the seller is honest and delivers his product in a responsible manner, I think B/S/T is great.

Frank

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Posted By: jay behrens

I don't have a problem with people flipping stuff they get on eBay. The real issue is people that take advantage of the good will of a fellow board member to get a good deal on a card, then flip it immediately. As Pete said, kharma will come back to get you and word will get around the board about what you are doing.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

...The real issue is people that take advantage of the good will of a fellow board member to get a good deal on a card, then flip it immediately....

I agree with that Jay.

Frank

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Posted By: JIm Manos

I mean that, Great guy Frank is..You know I felt bad about our one deal. Hopefully we can do another and we get better PO support.

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Posted By: G.H. Counter

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/site/bidplace.aspx?itemid=2215

I'm sure the Lelands link is there somewhere, need to check if it was 2004 or 2005!

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Posted By: JIm Manos

Your discounted right off the bat. Have some balls. The stuff sell's go back and run your numbers of items that don't sell?? Serious let us know. Your fellow board memebers that show ther face and name are buying the stuff, whats wrong with that?? Let us know of the stuff listed what % was not sold. Thx's Jim

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Posted By: JIm Manos

I stand corrected and Rex lied to me. I already made about 3k on the piece. But it tells me alot about Rex's word. Thank You, Jim

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Posted By: leon

No anonymity in this thread.....it will be summarily deleted. I am intentionally not giving an opinion (1st time ever)...at least until later ...Thanks for understanding

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Posted By: peter ullman

Jim...maybe if you weren't such an obnoxious, loud prick...people'd like you more.

pete ullman

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Posted By: JIm Manos

Not lacking friends.. Again here to sell cards. Don't want them don't buy them.. Seems like your not getting the point??

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Posted By: Chris Bland

I agree that it can sometimes be irritating to see certain sellers flip items they have recently won on ebay, etc. but on the other hand I also can see Jim's point - people are buying the cards, so why should he stop selling? He isn't doing anything wrong.

Most of us know which sellers do this on here; next time just do a little research and you can avoid paying more for something you may have been able to win a week or two ago...

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Posted By: JIm Manos

THANK YOU CHRIS...

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Posted By: ScottIngold

For what it's worth......

I'm fine with it. Don't buy it if you think it's overpriced or have a problem with flipping.

But obviously there is a market. So sell away.

How many times do the cards not cover the price paid ?

In my case i have bought on ebay and decided the card wasn't right for me and either took a loss or sat on the card for months.

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Posted By: JIm Manos

Thank you.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Jim flips stuff....he could probably flip more if he didn't sell it at 5x and would occasionally put a picture in a thread. But that's why it's B/S/T and not just B/T or T or B or something. The S means sell.....

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Posted By: andy becker

i have no problem anyone flipping cards and using the bst to do so.
i agree that if the price is unfair, don't buy it.

what i do have a problem with is....board members requesting some "time" to pay for a card and then never paying.

who has time for that???

it has happened to me a few times now and it sux. and, these are respected board members.

if you are going to sell, respond to emails.
if you are buying, pay promptly.

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Posted By: ScottIngold

Very good point Andy. Most are great. But a few times it has been a very drawn out affair.

Free market all the way.

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Posted By: joe

Jim sells cards to make money, nothing wrong with that is there? He sounds like he could sell a freezer to the Eskimos, but thats his style. Don't buy if you dont want or need the card. It sounds like some board members have some personal issues or bad deals with Jim, so that should be their and Jim's business. If I buy from Jim, I hope it turns out ok and it probably will.

Joe

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Posted By: Chad

When I've sold on BST, I probably put too high a value on my cards--I'm a sentimentalist, I guess--but I almost always will accept a reasonable offer from a buyer. It doesn't hurt to ask.

--Chad

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

All things being equal I would much rather that things I sell on the B/S/T go towards helping someone complete a set or find a card that they have been searching for - several times this has happened and it's a good feeling to get someone one step closer to a goal.

On the other hand, I don't hold it against someone if they are trying to make a buck. It isn't a great feeling to see something you just sold on B/S/T wind up on EBay at a higher price, but the B/S/T is a first come first served area - whoever sends me the first email will get the card whether it is dealer or collector or whether I like or dislike the person's posts is all irrelevant. If someone can make a buck by flipping what I sell, then more power to them - it isn't my preference, but once I post something for sale it is out of my hands who buys it and what they do with it.

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

b/s/t thread is fine. I love the material that comes though there. Most of the times (99%) I'm too late getting in on items I want. If anyone wants to flip me the Newsboy Cabinet Scott just sold or the 19th Century Baseball currency, I would love to buy them. Keep it the same. No commission and no listing fees.. The last of the frontier!!!! I hope Leon will flip the deal he just bought from Jim!!!

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Posted By: JIm Manos

I have never had a bad deal that I recall. Other than a deal with Frank 8 mths ago with the PO ie ... lost in the mail(I didn't insure refunded his $ and gave hime some cards of that issue and lost my ass). I deliver the goods every time.

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Posted By: jeff lichtman

I think I agree with the original poster on this thread somewhat; I'd like to think that the sharks go to ebay or the auction houses to sell and the hobby enthusiasts who sell to each other here should be a little more sensitive and not be so quick to rip someone off. After all, this is a community of like-minded individuals who share a very esoteric passion. We should respect each other and not be so quick to grab every dollar we can. I can tell you from personal experience that I have sold cards to board members on this and other forums for prices under retail value because the buyer needed the card(s) for his collection and I wanted to help out. The world is round and everyone should go a little easier. I'm not against anyone making a profit here but if we can't be treated with kid gloves here by sellers than this is not the sanctuary it should be. I've had some hilariously ridiculous unsolicited offers from board members that, should I have accepted, I would have been badly ripped off. I've also paid board members prices for cards that I felt were full retail value but were happy to have the chance to own the cards and, while I could have talked the prices down 10% or so, I felt that the sellers were fair in their prices and should be rewarded for not trying to rip me off. As I said, life is circular and you all get what you deserve in the end. So why not behave a little more charitably to the few people on the planet who don't think you're nuts for spending all this time and money on old, smelly cardboard?

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Posted By: John J. Grillo

There's another side of the coin to this...sometimes in this hobby there may come a time where you have to pay either a little or a lot more to get what you want or need.

Sellers should be able to list whatever prices they want on the B/S/T. You can either buy it, try to negiotate a lower price, or ignore it. The only thing I find strange in sellers is when they act unprofessional when someone tries to negiotate a lower price. Either way, I consider the Seller a honest seller as long as they deliver securely and promptly.

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Posted By: Greg Ecklund

Jeff,
Good points - I know I have lowered what were fair prices by up to 25 or 30% to sell to a board member who really wanted something, and I could name several members who have given me great deals when they could have easily gotten more for a card. I don't necessarily think the B/S/T is always the best place for those kind of deals to take place though.

The spirit of the B/S/T is that everyone gets an equal shot at things and the first person to respond, no matter who it is, can buy what is offered. On the other hand, part of the enjoyment of collecting is to find out what others specialize in or enjoy, and then helping that person out if you get a chance. I know if I found a card of an obscure guy who was only in one set I would offer it to Jay first for his players set, while an uncatalogued back variation or a newly discovered card would be offered to Leon, or a sharp 1933 Goudey or Hal Chase card to you, or a near perfect e93 to JimB to go with the fantastic ones he already has. There's nothing wrong with a little altruism in the hobby and in fact it is a great thing, but any of the hypothetical transactions above would take place off the B/S/T - the B/S/T doesn't always lend itself to those kinds of transactions.

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Posted By: JIm Manos

If Leon sell's and makes a buck it has only been a few day's?? God forbid him making a buck. Thank you for the support. At least on this thread you figure out who not to sell to. I am...

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Posted By: jeff lichtman

Greg - you're exactly right. The reason we're out here all together on this forum is to help each other enjoy our hobby more than we could if we were left to fend for ourselves.

Jim - as a capitalist (as am I, so relax), are you telling me that you're making mental notes on who not to sell to despite the possibility that they may offer you more money than anyone else for a card you're selling?

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Posted By: JIm Manos

I am making better than mental notes. I have sold enough on this board to know who is who. many people waste my time etc... I don't complain that is part of business. It's the people that belittle me for selling cards of rarity because I bought for $50 bucks and sell for $75. Honestly, I don't want to business with them anyways. I sell a ton of stuff to people that send me there want lists and ask if I can help them. Super example, Andy Cook wanted a Risberg Zeenut. I got one a few weeks ago in a group and e-mailed and he purchased. I made a few bucks yes. But, he e-mailed the list he needed and I gave him first shot. I do it all the time. ten times of what hits the board. It is a serve most people would enjoy. I do sometimes buy from a board member and sell to another just because I know they need it. yes make a few bucks. Some people can't deal with that that is why I get alot of ****. Lastly, If other people read this let's chill out on the **** e-mails to my home, I have 3 boys and a wife that use this computer. If there is something you want to say post it don't send to my personal e-mail. Thx's Jim

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Posted By: eric p.

i personally don't care what a seller paid for a card or how long he has had it in his possession, if it's a card that i want and i am willing to pay a certain dollar amount for that card, then i will buy it, i don't care if the seller made a 500% return on his money or not, the only thing i care about is having my card well packaged and shipped in a reasonable amount of time, the b/s/t is just another great avenue to buy cards.

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Posted By: David Vargha

As I told the IRS, I have always lost money on every card transaction that I have ever made. This is true even when I sell cards at obscenely high prices. (Maybe it's my outrageous overhead.)

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: edacra

BST is one of the rare places people still sometimes offer to TRADE! cards, and it really seems like most of the expert dealers who visit this forum contribute to the discussions and sell the bulk of their inventory elsewhere. The only thing I noticed is how people are offering items to BST first at a premium price as their preference, then when it doesn't sell they send it to Ebay and drop it down so we have to fight with all the hooligans!

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Posted By: Anonymous

1. I have no problem with flipping on the b/s/t. If an item is listed for too outrageous an amount it will not sell. If an item is sold and the buyer is happy with the price I do not see any harm.

2. As Edacra points out, this is one of the few places that actually fosters trading. Seth is perhaps perplexed by trades being lumped in with sales in the b/s/t. It is a bit of an anomoly in the world of pre-war cards. Everywhere we look we see auction after auction after auction after auction. Sales, sales, sales. To me, sales are all business, while trading evokes the emotions Seth speaks of, helping your fellow collector and feeling part of a collecting community. Perhaps the solution is to split the b/s/t into two sections, one for buy/sell, and one for trade. However, this may be a bit drastic. . . I have been very pleased with my dealings on b/s/t as it is now set up. . .

Andrew

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Posted By: John

It’s called capitalism, and is the basis of our economy. Without it all of our cards are worth nothing.

People always seem to have a problem with capitalism when they’re on the other end of it. I find it very amusing when people seem to have issues with others using the system to their advantage.

People however are ok with making money, having windfalls, asking their prices etc. People just don’t seem to like it when others get their fill of the system; I guess it’s just human nature?

This hobby has become expensive no doubt about it, and as long as people are willing to spend the money there will be people willing to take it. Not much you can do about it, me I would rather spend my time making some more money to spend vs. worrying about who’s taking it or spending it, but that’s just me.

For the record I’m not defending Jim’s prices. I don’t know even know Jim (hi Jim), but I will defend his right to ask them.

P.S. I think Jim does run Sunday Clipper Coupons, hey if it can save a buck I’m all about value!

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Posted By: Bob

I don't begrudge the flippers, I am like most on here who aren't Fortune 500 people, we flip to make a little money to plow back in to cards and the hobby. I also don't begrudge someone trying to make some money even when they proudly proclaim they are not a collector in any sense of the word, because it offers cards to those of us who are collectors. What I do have a problem with is someone who tries to corner the market on a certain set of cards, thereby destroying all the outlets available to collectors, and then turns around and offers them at 3 and 4 times the original price and uses the BST to do it. That, I have a problem with. I guess that just rankles my hobbyist soul...

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Posted By: Seth B.

Well, not really. To respond to a number of points, and to ignore even more...
Again, I have no problem with making money. Heck, I'll sell cards at higher prices than I bought them. I like money, I really do. My issue is not with making money or with any sort of request to change the BST. Or with Jim, really. Jim and I had a talk about some T209s on the phone recently, and he didn't come out of the receiver and bite my ear off or anything. Settle down here, fellas.

But cards, as I see it, aren't simple capital, and this isn't just capitalism. I don't smell my stocks and bonds. This is a place for people who love cards, and some who would like those cards even if they couldn't sell them for mucho dinero tomorrow. I like that side of things. Doesn't make them worth any less, I like the money side of things, too. But the appreciation part is something unique to this board. It's what makes posting your pickup fun, all the ooh's and ah's.
Now, that difference noted, I have an odd affinity for my cards. When I sell them here, I would like them to go to someone else who has that odd affinity, namely, a collector. I'm idealist, I know. But if I sell them, and they wind up getting turned around and resold immediately, well, then that's too bad. It's not morally wrong or sin, but in my ideal world, it's not the top preference. The thing about this board is that I have a higher percentage chance of selling cards to someone who will treasure my treasures.
I know, Max Weber might point out that I only sell them b/c I don't want them anymore, and that's true. But let's just play ideal world for a bit longer: cards in my collection were put in there b/c they appealed to me enough to be bought at some point. I enjoyed them as long as I want, now I want other cards. That's the way collectors work, that's collecting, not capitalism.
On that more positive note, I have had pleasant experiences on the board where someone has sold me a card at a lower price because I'm working on the set. That's cool, and I'd gladly do that back to someone. So, all I guess I'm saying is, that's the opportunity you see in this forum that you don't see somewhere else, and that's the side of the B/S/T I love, and I hope continues.

EDIT TO SAY: By the way, that's Max Weber, as in Spirit of Capitalism, not as in a bad typo of a board member's name.

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Posted By: Cat

Here's my complaint about B/S/T: Many people post in B/S/T that they want a specific hard to find card, but never offer anything in trade. Most of us have something in our collection, as trade bait, to get that hard to find card. Personally, I don't sell many cards (never any high end ones)...but you may be able to pry that hard to find card out of my collection if you offer another card which I may need/want.

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Posted By: Cobby33

1) Jim has always been up-front with me. I know he's more of a businessman than a collector and that's fine with me. If I don't like his prices, I won't pay them.

2) B/S/T is a great way to find some hard-to-find items that don't make their way on eBay. I certainly don't expect to get them for free and again, if I think the seller is trying to rip me off, I won't buy it. (As someone else pointed out, sellers (and buyers) should always honor common decency and discretion- which most probably learn is the best policy [supply & demand]).

Sure, I get fed up with people being ridiculous, but for the most part, B/S/T provides a service and allows me to choose whether I want to pay what a seller wants, or not. Without it, I wouldn't even have that choice.

P.S. Whatever you think about B/S/T and the sellers thereon, it's nothing like the major auction houses. This 15-minute-until-eternity rule, IMHO, is the greediest vehicle ever. Let the auction end already! All it does is allow the HANDFUL of people who have the money, to outbid the crap out of everyone else, in the name of consignors and the auction houses squeezing every last penny that they can.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Haggling over price is fine, but some people need to get realistic about the offers they are making. I was once offered $50 for a card that eventually sold for $750. This same person, made several other similarily silly offers and finally had to tell him to quit wasting my time. This was someone that supposedly knows his cards.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.