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  #1  
Old 07-22-2004, 10:01 PM
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Posted By: Patrick McMenemy

Curious at to how things are going at this year's National in Cleveland. Is there a great selection? Is it well organized? Any great finds?

I would like to know how the overall show stacks up to previous Nationals?

Any feedback would be appreciated!

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  #2  
Old 07-23-2004, 08:59 PM
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Posted By: prewarsports

I just got back, went for 2 days. I found a guy selling non sports cards with 2 Recruit boxes with the tax seals still on them ($12 each) and an empty Old Judge box with inner sleeve for $100 among other things. I found a collection of near mint T207's and bought all 28 cards for a little over $10 each, as well as a tin type with a black or cuban manager from about 1890.

With the exception of Leon/Scotts table and TIK's table, there were not many rarities of note, and the items of interest that were there were so overpriced that it wasn't even worth it to haggle. I only managed to spend 1/3 the budget I set and couldn't even talk myself into spending more. But as always, it was fun and worth the trip.

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  #3  
Old 07-23-2004, 09:05 PM
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Posted By: mzm55

I came put with some pretty nice cards. It wasn't that crowded but as said before most of the tables were a little high priced. The prices on some peoples t206's were way to high but overall may dad and I walked out with 22 hall of famers including a a Christy Mathewsom dark cap. Leon's table was very impressive and his Four Base Hits Mike Kelly was awesome along with his Peck and Snyder. I paid my respect to the 8 Wagners at Mastros and the PSA 8 one at PSA's both. So all in all it was a good time and I thought well worth the money and I am already looking forward to going next year to the ntional in Chicago.

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  #4  
Old 07-23-2004, 09:28 PM
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Posted By: Julie Vognar

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Old 07-24-2004, 09:11 AM
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Posted By: Bill

I went to the National with a few friends and we had a great time. Was looking for T206's, but only got a couple. Thought cards for the most part were overpriced. I collect only SGC graded, and unfortunately most of the T206's that I saw were 80% PSA. When I buy PSA and get them crossed over to SGC they usually come back with a lower grade, so I try to stay away from PSA. I am currently at 98% complete with SGC.

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  #6  
Old 07-24-2004, 12:54 PM
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Posted By: Julie

Sounds like a couple of you made major finds, like at some hole-in-the-wall place where someone's setting up for the first time! For $1000 a table--not bloody likely!

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  #7  
Old 07-24-2004, 08:15 PM
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Posted By: bcornell

If this show isn't what it used to be, it was still pretty terrific. I was trying to plug holes in some T-card sets and was very happy to get 10 Ramlys and several tough T207's, as well as a couple of T222's.

Like last year, there were virtually no E cards to be had for less than a small fortune. Everyone has to stop hoarding and move on!

Julie - I saw 3 N162 Glasscocks. Terry had 2, but one was being graded (uh-oh on that price) and the other was part of a group. The other one I'll send you an email about. No Andrews to be found.

I expect some other attendees will weigh in with their own experiences once the show ends on Sunday.

Bill

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  #8  
Old 07-24-2004, 08:35 PM
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Posted By: Julie

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  #9  
Old 07-25-2004, 09:11 AM
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Posted By: david

did tik have any g and bs or yum yums at his table?

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  #10  
Old 07-25-2004, 09:38 AM
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Posted By: Julie

food trucks had just arrived!

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  #11  
Old 07-25-2004, 09:42 AM
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Posted By: Aaron M.

Thumbs up, definitely.

This was the third straight National I'd traveled to, and the fourth in five years I'd attended. With more than enough items of interest in August's Hunt and Mastronet auctions to blow my entire collecting budget for the 2nd half of the year and with last year's bust in Atlantic City in mind (I left empty-handed), my expectations were pretty low. But I was pleasantly surprised by the low-key tone (trading card company, obnoxious modern junk and manufactured collectibles dealers, and grading services presences were noticeably scaled back) and I'd rank it as a "solid" show along with Chicago a couple years ago and a huge improvement over Atlantic City last year. (Good organization, nice layout, friendly service, good food, etc.)

My wife and I flew in to Cleveland from Los Angeles on Friday and checked into our hotel with enough time to systematically cover about 2/3 of the convention floor in three hours before closing. (The airport, IX Center, and Airport Sheraton were all basically interconnected and a quick, convenient shuttle away from each other.)

Within the first hour I found a dealer with a high-quality vintage sports memorabilia display anchored by, among other things, a 1910 Philadelphia Athletics composite team pin (not on my list, but impressive to see in person nonetheless). I ended up buying beautiful examples of the 1935 Rogers Hornsby "Browns' Boys Club" and 1940's Jimmy Foxx "Yours For Life" pinbacks and a very attractive 1942 St. Louis Cardinals pocket schedule for a good price. None of the items were particularly valuable or something I couldn't readily find on E-Bay, but you just can't beat the experience of spotting something you're looking for and/or connect with while perusing dealer display cases in person.

All the major auction houses (Mastro, Hunt, Lelands, Grey Flannel, etc.) were there with museum-quality displays previewing their upcoming auctions (seeing this stuff in person is almost worth making the trip by itself). Mastro actually had two seperate displays, with one featuring at least nine examples of the T206 Wagner side-by-side and the other devoted to their August auction. Among the mind-blowing items were a heretofore unknown 1910 Frank Baker "A Fan for a Fan," a beautifully framed 1903 Boston Pilgrims "Royal Rooters" pin, and the original artwork for a never produced 1936 Diamond Stars Rogers Hornsby and Jim Bottomley card (this was simply one of the most magnificent pieces of sports cards or memorabilia I have ever seen in person--stunning).

I then tried to purchase the 1926 Golden Jubilee baseball that Steve Venkman had offered in his June Clean Sweep auction. I have to give him credit--I gave him a hard time about errors in the listing on this board, but after the item went unsold in his auction (it failed to draw the $1,500 minimum bid over the course of the six-week listing) he was very courteous and responsive when I asked him to bring the ball to the National and hold it for me to see if we could work out a deal. Unfortunately, he wouldn't budge from the $1,500 price (I offered $1,200), and even tried to raise the price on me to $2,000, so I had to pass.

I ended up picking up some old Leland and Hunt's auction catalogs (along with Mastro's, the best hobby reference books around) to add to my library before we headed back to the hotel (again, great service and great value for your dollar) as the dealers were closing up for the night.

On Saturday, my wife and I arrived bright and early and were inline to cover the last 1/3 of the floor as the doors opened. The line was extremely short compared to previous Nationals--which was good for me but probably not so good for dealers. Attendance on Saturday actually seemed lower than Friday.

I quickly picked up what appears to be a 5" by 7" reproduction of the 1932 New York Yankees American League Champions composite team print that for some reason was stuck to the backside of an early 20th century framed portrait photo of a woman (the matting says "Otto Sarney Co., 1177 Broadway Near 26th Street, New York" if anyone has any info on this, otherwise, it's getting tossed). It's the prefect "space-holder" to be reframed for a particular spot in my display until I get my hands on the 1907 Cubs composite team postcard.

Then pay-dirt: a vintage memorabilia dealer from Georgia who had a spectacular display last year (I watched as a representative from an auction house used high-pressure tactics to buy all his choice material in one shot), had a stunning 1923 McDonald Church League trophy presented by Honus Wagner complete with a seperate beautifully ornate base piece I'd never seen before. I had tried unsuccessfully to win one of these trophies at auction from Leland and SportsCards Plus over the last three years, but both times came up short. I quickly plunked down $1,500 (which I felt was a very fair price) and happily walked away with my best ever in-person purchase.

I made one last attempt to get Venkman to lower his price on the Golden Jubilee ball (no dice) and got a subscription to the new Old Judge magazine and then my wife and I left the show with enough time to hit the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame before catching our return flight and arriving home last night. Overall, a great couple of days.

The trophy purchase aside, I would say that with E-Bay and the various sports collectibles auction houses, there's really no need to attend shows like the National in person in terms of adding to your collection (most of the "good stuff" is either held back for the major auctions or ridiculously overpriced ), but it does greatly enrich your collecting experience. Being so completely immersed in the hobby and all its varied aspects and having the opportunity to kind of get an in-person "status check" on its pulse, IMO, is integral to enjoying our collecting.

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  #12  
Old 07-25-2004, 11:10 AM
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Posted By: tbob

I posted this query in another thread but this seems to be the best place to get it answered: I was wondering if the interest in T207 cards and E cards in general, and particularly E94s and E97s which are on fire on ebay, translated to higher prices at the National? It appears from other comments that T207s were moving briskly, at least the scarce back ones and that the great interest in E cards on ebay is reflected by their scarcity at the Show. Just wondering what the prices were vis a vis ebay and if interest in them appeared strong...

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  #13  
Old 07-25-2004, 02:33 PM
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Posted By: BCD

just look at how much Tim did NOT pay for the Speaker in a 6 holder.

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  #14  
Old 07-25-2004, 02:41 PM
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Posted By: Thomas

Hello,

Like TBob I would also love to hear about T207's at this years National. Also where is the National going to be next year? If I remember correctly it's Chicago, but I am not sure.

Thank you,
Thomas

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  #15  
Old 07-25-2004, 03:00 PM
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Posted By: Julie

general.

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  #16  
Old 07-25-2004, 04:45 PM
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Posted By: mark evans

Thanks to Scott and Leon for the pass to the show and to Pete for coordinating the dinner. Both the dinner and the show were terrific fun notwithstanding that I didn't buy a thing (due to the narrow scope of my ethnic quest and general frugality). Looking forward to Chicago. Mark

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  #17  
Old 07-25-2004, 11:32 PM
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Posted By: warshawlaw

I flew in on Wednesday evening and got in a few hours then did 9:30-6:00 on Thursday, 9:30-3:30 on Friday, and 9:30 -3:30 on Saturday before going home that evening. Here are my impressions, acquisitions, etc.:

Probably 50% of the tables are pure garbage--modern cards (inserts, mostly) and manufactured memorabilia. Another 25% sell the same 1948-1975 graded cards. How any of them make money is beyond my ability to understand. Another 5% or so have nothing for sale; either they are auctioneers showing off their consignments or dealers with a smattering of cards and lots of buy signs (isn't it interesting how many dealers advertise "Top prices paid"?). The remainder of the tables have the good stuff. I covered about 1/3 of the floor Wednesday evening, the whole floor on Thursday, and spent the rest of the time revisiting the worthwhile tables.

While I agree that prices were generally too high, there were good deals to be had and there seemed to be a lot of room to haggle. I was getting prices knocked down 25%-40% on virtually every deal I made, with very little work. It also is definitely worth it to attend a National despite the abundance of auctions and ebay because you can truly find stuff in the nooks and crannies of showcases that either never makes it to ebay or that shows up rarely. There is something really great about locating a particularly tough item and knowing you will have it, then actually bargaining down the seller on it. I found a card I'd been chasing for years (see below) and was smiling ear to ear the rest of the day. There are also decidedly pronounced regional variations in prices that show up at the National, and there are a good number of dealers who are part timers who do only the National. Some of the dealer displays are truly astounding; a couple built enormous structures out of milk crates, display cases, string and whatever else they had; looked like shanty towns in Mexico. I did come home with about 20% of my funds still intact, so it was nowhere near as strong a show as in the past.

Among the finds: A 1930 Exhibit card of Jim Thorpe from a very rare entertainment set that I'd been chasing for the better part of three years (made my day Friday); a bevy of Dodgers cards at very low (for me) prices, including three nice 1958 Bell Brand cards; several vg and vg-ex T206 and E95 Hofers for about $100 each (slabbed); a handful of those fun T206 miscuts and misprints, including an Ira Thomas missing a layer of red ink; A great T207 misprint and miscut card (a real mess ); an Obak miscut; a nice lot of T219 Miners Extra boxers (scarce back); half the 1966 Good Guys and Bad Guys (western history) set for under $3 a card in stellar condition; around 75 sharp commons for my 1971 Topps set; a Dixie lid of Al Rosen and an autographed 1951 Topps Al Rosen. There were many other items too, but these were the highlights.

One that got away: a 1924 Dominion Chocolates Joe Wood. The dealer could not ID the card for me but wanted $125 and by the time I saw another card from the set ID'd I was basically out the door to catch the plane.

I also managed to have several items graded and/or authenticated. Kudos for SGC for setting the standard again for friendly, conscientious service. Boos to PSA for not having its act together at all. FYI, PSA, 2 hours is 120 minutes, not 3 1/2 hours.

The IX Center: a pit in the middle of nowhere. Has all the appeal of a cattle auctioning facility. Supposedly walking distance from the Sheraton, as long as you like walking down a freeway to get there. Plumbing from the 1950's, drafty even in the summer. Food was the worst crap I've ever had in a show; the stuff prison riots are made of. I think the CIA interrogation people had a role in the "entertainment"; I was ready to talk after the horrid band Wednesday evening and the first day of listening to a combo of a ferris wheel in the middle of the floor that sounded like a truck starting up each time dozens of times a day and really bad music over a tinny PA system. The VIP lounge was a bunch of tables in a room. Think Ramada Inn convention facility without the charm.

Social: Had a great time. Dinner was great fun; we had so many people show up that we took over an entire dining room in the restaurant. Lots of good conversation and BS'ing. Leon's traveling card museum is worth the visit alone; did the guys ever get that "any card $20" sign up there?? Bill, Elliot, Robert and I went to Jacobs Field Friday night and laughed our way through a re-enactment of "Major League" then got completely lost looking for their hotels. Turns out exit 235 and 240 have the same damned hotels in the same row. Robert has me chasing all over the area at exit 240 then says "Wait, this is where Ryan's hotel is, not mine." Classic. Among the hilarity at the game: Robert went to buy a yearbook and was told that they'd not bothered to print one this year, they played "You And Me and a Bottle Makes Three" to welcome in their closer, their inspiring motto was "let's do this", Just a sucky team going nowhere. And playing an even suckier team (KC). They had over 20 hits and only 4 runs in 9 innings. Nice stadium; amazing scoreboard. Lousy food. Never, ever order the chili cheese dog. I was remembering that one for 36 hours.

Cleveland: Everything you've heard about it is true. The mistake by the lake. Bad food, bad accommodations, lots of fat chicks, basically nothing to do but drink. You know it's bad when McDonald's tastes good. But, cheap. Our dinner tab for all those guys was like $600.

Chitown is a great place to hang out, so I've already got the days on my calendar. See you in '05.

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  #18  
Old 07-26-2004, 07:23 AM
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Posted By: runscott

I skipped the National and somehow lucked into my first "Antique Mall" find!
On the way to a weekend getaway, we stopped off at a cheesy antique mall and I found a George Burke Rogers Hornsby portrait with press photo notes and crop marks on the back - I'm quite pleased!

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