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Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980)

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  #1  
Old 05-03-2019, 11:12 AM
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Default Holes in PSA 7's - Please read - be informed

THESE ARE FACTS. READ AND BE INFORMED. PICS AT BOTTOM

January 20, 2019 :
I purchased a PSA 7 1956 Roberto Clemente card (eBay auction372563950966). After receiving the card few days later, I noticed a mark on the back of the card that looked strange. I grabbed a magnifying glass to take a closer look. I didn't like what I was seeing. I turned on the flashlight on my cell phone, held the card up to the light and found a pinhole in the center of the PSA 7 card as well as other signs of what looked to be 'thin' or recolored areas.

I compared other graded cards by holding them up to this same light. I found no holes and no light shining through the cards. I quickly decided that something was not right and I did not want the card. I requested a refund. I returned the card along with detailed pictures and a description of the pinhole location. I mentioned my surprise that something like this got past PSA.

January 31, 2019:
My refund completed on this day and I noticed the card was immediately relisted on eBay (auction 362546946410) with no mention of the pinhole or thin/recolored areas.

February 11, 2019:
The second auction closes and the card has a new owner.

April 22, 2019:
I purchase a 1956 Jackie Robinson PSA 7 card in a Best Offer ebay auction (auction 362625199622).

April 25th, 2019:
The card arrives. I unpack the card and take it immediately to the same cell phone light (remembering my previous experience). This time, not one hole, but two tiny holes. Along with extensive surface thin spots/recoloring of some sort. I requested a full refund less than 20 minutes after receiving the item.

TODAY - May 3, 2019:
My refund was completed within the past hour....and the same card has been relisted with no mention of the tiny holes or other problems. Ebay auction 372663835202.

PLEASE TAKE NOTE:
If you are the current owner of a 1956 PSA 7 Roberto Clemente (PSA# 41947421), your card has a pinhole in it.
If you are considering making an offer on 1956 PSA 7 Jackie Robinson (PSA# 24050531), please be aware this card has two tiny holes as well as other suspect areas.


Have a good weekend everyone.


Last edited by Keep_it_warm; 05-03-2019 at 11:53 AM. Reason: More descriptive title
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  #2  
Old 05-03-2019, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calvindog View Post
I'm not sure but I suspect people send cards in for grading because the grading of the card increases the value exponentially.
Hmmm...turns out Jeff was right. I mean, how else can you take a P/F/G card and increase the value exponentially?
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  #3  
Old 05-03-2019, 12:32 PM
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3 questions to the OP though:

Do you have any special skills or training that allowed you to see what PSA didn't? (I'm assuming you're not a "professional grader")

If not, why could you see it, but they couldn't?

Any lessons learned from your experiences?

Last edited by vintagetoppsguy; 05-03-2019 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Spelling
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  #4  
Old 05-03-2019, 12:39 PM
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No special skills at all. I took these with my cell phone. Do a search and find the current auction and zoom in on the back photo and see if it doesn't match up to my pictures. It will.


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Old 05-03-2019, 12:41 PM
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Everything I referenced in my original post can also be verified on the PSA auction sales site. You'll see the two consecutive sales for the Clemente card back in Jan and Feb. Same flip #
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Old 05-03-2019, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
3 questions to the OP though:

Do you have any special skills or training that allowed you to see what PSA didn't? (I'm assuming you're not a "professional grader")

If not, why could you see it, but they couldn't?

Any lessons learned from your experiences?
I would turn the question around. What defines those grading cards at PSA or any TPG as "professional graders"? Do they have special skills or training? Are they certified somehow? I'm truly not trying to be argumentative, just curious.

I could easily counter that someone who has been collecting for 30 years could be more qualified as a "professional grader" than say any random grader working at a TPG. I'm not saying they are or aren't (or that the OP has 30 years in collecting), but just curious as to what the point is in that question. It's not even relevant to what the OP discovered.
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  #7  
Old 05-03-2019, 01:01 PM
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I'm a nobody. I'm just trying to complete a set I started 40 years ago. It's raw, but I wanted to finish it with the bigger cards being 'professionally graded' to give me some peace of mind that I wasn't getting ripped off. When this first happened back in January, I thought it must be some freak occurrence. When it happened a second time last week, then I knew I had to post something to at least try to warn others who may be considering making an offer on the current live auction.
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  #8  
Old 05-03-2019, 01:05 PM
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If there are other/better places to post this, someone please let me know. I'm all for giving others a heads up before they throw their money away on a card that doesn't equal the holder it's sitting inside.
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  #9  
Old 05-03-2019, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Keep_it_warm View Post
If there are other/better places to post this, someone please let me know. I'm all for giving others a heads up before they throw their money away on a card that doesn't equal the holder it's sitting inside.
Registration issue all fixed. It was on my end. Sorry about that....
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Last edited by Leon; 05-03-2019 at 07:34 PM.
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  #10  
Old 05-03-2019, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by tschock View Post
I would turn the question around. What defines those grading cards at PSA or any TPG as "professional graders"? Do they have special skills or training? Are they certified somehow? I'm truly not trying to be argumentative, just curious.

I could easily counter that someone who has been collecting for 30 years could be more qualified as a "professional grader" than say any random grader working at a TPG. I'm not saying they are or aren't (or that the OP has 30 years in collecting), but just curious as to what the point is in that question. It's not even relevant to what the OP discovered.
Taylor, I absolutely agree with you. I think many individuals here have enough "hobby experience" that's makes them way more qualified to render an opinion than any "professional grader." And I guess that is my point. Why do people keep trusting these TPGs rather than the experience of a seasoned collector/dealer? It's obvious that the OP wanted NM 1956 Topps cards. Are there not enough trustworthy sellers on eBay that you could buy either card raw in the same NM condition from a reputable seller and save hundreds of dollars? Sure there are. Or maybe even at a local shop or show? So why do people keep putting their faith in the TPGs rather than a reputable collector/dealer? At least the OP looked at the cards for himself. How many buyers get those same 2 cards and not even look at them, just put them in a box or in their safe and feel all warm and fuzzy thinking they bought a NM card? Many! It goes back to my point. I'll assume the OP is your "average collector." So if an average collector can look at that card and see pin holes, why can't the TPGs? Yet people keep drinking the Kool-Aid trusting in some flip because some TPG said it was so.

I don't really consider myself an autograph collector, but the autograph side of this board is much different than the card side. There are enough autograph experts on here that the autograph collectors know they can ask an opinion of authenticity and that opinion is worth way more than any TPAs (and they don't have to pay an authentication fee). So why isn't the card side the same? I could list several names on here that I would trust for an autograph authenticity opinion, and that opinion would carry much more weight with me rather than PSA/DNA, BSA, SGC or whoever. But who are the names on here we can trust for card grade opinions more than the TPGs? Card collectors want to see that grade on the flip. Autograph collectors just want to know their item is authentic. I used the autograph guys were a bit odd, but now I understand them more and more.
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  #11  
Old 05-03-2019, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Taylor, I absolutely agree with you. I think many individuals here have enough "hobby experience" that's makes them way more qualified to render an opinion than any "professional grader." And I guess that is my point.
Gotcha. I totally misread the tenor of your post. Sorry about that.
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  #12  
Old 05-03-2019, 03:01 PM
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Those are pretty awful. You should email the thread to the new PSA President Steve Sloan and have him buy the cards back and remove them from the cert list.
I got back the second egregiously graded error by PSA where they did not consider this card marked, and gave it a straight PSA 4:
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Old 05-03-2019, 07:54 PM
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It was nice to speak with you Leon
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  #14  
Old 05-04-2019, 06:51 AM
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Just wanted to ask if there was any evidence of tampering on the psa holder.
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  #15  
Old 05-04-2019, 08:38 PM
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Not shocked. I have over the years seen interior holes missed on high grade cards in I believe every companies holders. I once owned a 1961 topps 9 with a staple hole. They bought it back. As I asssume they would these cards,errors do occur people Are human. Iíll still take reza, Steve or Lummy at sgcís opinions over that of most people I know and certainly over anyone who commented on this thread already,despite their own touting of their ďexpertiseĒ
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  #16  
Old 05-05-2019, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by glynparson View Post
... I once owned a 1961 topps 9 with a staple hole.. .
Wait, since a PSA 9 slabbed with a staple hole is presumably much less common than one without, would the relative scarcity not make it more valuable than regular ol' 9??
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports View Post
Just wanted to ask if there was any evidence of tampering on the psa holder.

I wonder the same thing.

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  #18  
Old 05-05-2019, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports View Post
Just wanted to ask if there was any evidence of tampering on the psa holder.
Nothing that I could see, but I donít pretend to have as much experience or knowledge with spotting tampering as many of you have. Speaking of the Jackie Robinson Card, there is a small 1/2Ē stress crack on the back side of the card that can be seen in the relished auction currently on eBay.
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  #19  
Old 05-05-2019, 04:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empty77 View Post
Wait, since a PSA 9 slabbed with a staple hole is presumably much less common than one without, would the relative scarcity not make it more valuable than regular ol' 9??
Who knows. Maybe thatís why the Clemente Card from January sold for even more when it was relisted? I did not post about it here, but I did post about it on a FB group. One guy (in that group) had the nerve to poke at me for even questioning the card. Basically saying ďa 7 is a 7Ē. He then went on to tell the group how his uncle could fill in pinholes and get them past PSA.

Basically, here is where I am at: Itís taken me 40 years to finally commit to completing my favorite set. I need these two cards. I may end up buying them raw and just moving on with life.

Again: The only reason for this post was to give as many people as possible a heads up about the current relisted Jackie Robinson card. I have not made any accusations. I have not encouraged anyone to avoid the auction. Iím just providing information, because I have held the card in my hands and I know that it has a condition issues Inconsistent with a 7 grade.
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  #20  
Old 05-05-2019, 12:16 PM
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Thanks for the heads up on this. Good luck getting your last two cards and finishing that set!
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:55 PM
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I am looking at the magnified images of the 1956 Robinson obverse. Those do not look like pin holes to me. They look like raised areas or bumps within the cardstock/ paper pulp. I think that those particular images are of chunks of material within the pulp that were manufactured when the card was made. I have seen this before on vintage. As for the 56 Clemente I donít see enough detail on the provided images.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Zact View Post
I am looking at the magnified images of the 1956 Robinson obverse. Those do not look like pin holes to me. They look like raised areas or bumps within the cardstock/ paper pulp. I think that those particular images are of chunks of material within the pulp that were manufactured when the card was made. I have seen this before on vintage. As for the 56 Clemente I donít see enough detail on the provided images.
I thought the same thing, however, the OP mentioned that he was able to see light though whatever this micro sized hole is.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:28 PM
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Keep these in a vault, they wont see the light of day
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Old 05-05-2019, 06:48 PM
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Default psa pin holes

Thanks for posting this. As an assessor, I'm always looking for flaws in the industry.

I hope you find ones to finish your set
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Old 05-05-2019, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zact View Post
I am looking at the magnified images of the 1956 Robinson obverse. Those do not look like pin holes to me. They look like raised areas or bumps within the cardstock/ paper pulp. I think that those particular images are of chunks of material within the pulp that were manufactured when the card was made. I have seen this before on vintage. As for the 56 Clemente I donít see enough detail on the provided images.

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Old 05-05-2019, 07:49 PM
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Chin and #45ís rear end.

Not to mention all the other debris on his Adamís apple and forehead.
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Old 05-05-2019, 07:50 PM
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Hereís the Clemente from January....


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Old 05-05-2019, 07:57 PM
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Thanks for posting this. As an assessor, I'm always looking for flaws in the industry.
Sure is a boon to be reading Net54 and Blowout this month for you.
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