Herpolsheimer's part 2

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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson

Some new Herpolsheimer's cards (e121 style) are now listed on ebay. I'm curious if anyone acquired any of these the last time they were offered and if they are they legit. There is a Ping Bodie card with him listed as a Washington player. Although I may be wrong, but I am not sure if he was ever on a Washington roster. Any insights?

Herpolsheimer cards

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Posted By: Julie

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Posted By: dan mckee

They are legit, it is a newly discovered back variation, take care Dan.

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Posted By: Paul

Is this the same seller as last time? I remain concerned that these are all private auctions.

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Posted By: David Smith

Hello,

Questions about these cards;

1) The seller says he has a Wagner card which he is going to list next week. If these are e 121 style, then why isn't the American Caramel advertising listed on the backs? Also, Honus wasn't in the e 121 sets.

2) If these are in the m 101-4 style which the SCD says they are, then why is there a Speaker Manager card listed on eBAY?? The m 101-4's are complete at 200 and Speaker wasn't in that set, was he??

Maybe somebody more knowledgable than I can help me out with this because I would at least like to get a common card, IF these are legitimate vintage cards and not some reprint or fantasy card.

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Posted By: BrianVanHorn

The cards offered on eBay are fakes. I have seen these cards once before at a show produced by J. Paul Sports at the Charles Sewald Center on the Robert Morris Campus in Pittsburgh. This was about six years ago and I asked the dealer about these cards. He said they were fakes.

Why else would he say this if it were not true?

Apparently, according to the dealer, they were produced in the 1970's. Of course, as I write this, I have no idea of the identity of the dealer. It was a one time meeting.

Please don't misinterpret my message. I don't mean to come off as a "know it all" or bombastic. This is my first post and I don't want to get off on the wrong foot.

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Posted By: leon

Nothing personal meant here but you're wrong. They are real. At first I thought they were fakes and that I had seem them somewhere being sold as reprints. I still believe I did see some somewhere but these are real cards. Not sure about what to think if a Wagner comes out. I assure you they are real though. One of my issues with the seller is at first they told me they had about 30 to sell. I think, with the ones now listed, they have already sold about 50. Even though it's a new discovery of a back it's not going to be rare, imo. Scarce yes, rare no...........hope this helps....regards

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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson

Upon further review, it is likely that the cards are e135 back variations (a la Boys Store). I believe that set depicts Speaker as a manager. However, the Bodie card as a Washington player is still a puzzle. Did anyone take the sellers offer and send the cards to be graded?

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Posted By: Craig

What is the writing on the backs of all the cards?
Happy holidays everyone!

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Posted By: dan mckee

Brian, please think these are fake and do not bid, thanks. Get one slabbed??? What will that prove? Have some idiot who knows far less about pre-war cards than anyone on this board tell me if it is real or not? I have seen color fro joys slabbed, are they real? I think the seller had over 100 to sell, not rare as Leon stated.





[edited to crop image]

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Posted By: Paul

These definitely are not related to Collins McCarthy. All of the photos are from E121. Also, I don't see anywhere that the seller has mentioned a Wagner. He mentions Ruth and Hornsby, but no Wagner.

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Posted By: David Smith

You are correct, the seller DOES say Hornsby and Ruth. I was going by memory when I said Wagner. Sorry about that.

The question still remains, are they authentic vintage cards or some fantasy piece??

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Posted By: dan mckee

There is no question

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Posted By: Ben

I don't think there's any question remaining here....Leon and Dan have confirmed that these are real, and as far as I'm concerned, their opinions are equally (or more) valuable than that of any "professional" grader.

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Posted By: DD

What's the difference between scarce and rare? If they have 100 cards, for the type card collector it's fine if they obtain one. If you collect a certain player, and they have 100 different cards, then you are looking at a one of a kind card (to date, barring any more discoveries), and the price you have to pay could be a lot.

I agree with Dan about sending it in for grading. Without any known examples to compare it to (how do grading companies do their thing anyway?), it could grade as authentic, or not. I would trust the knowledge of the people on this board over any grading company.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi agree with Dan and Leon,
They are real and SGC will grade them, but PSA declined due to the lack of information provided. I guess I should have called first before submitting, but I assumed they would have called me if they didn't understand my description. Be well Brian

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Posted By: dan mckee

Thanks for the kind words gentlemen, PSA actually has gained a little respect from me by refusing these because they didn't know what they were. At least that was being honest on their part. Dan.

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Posted By: Bruce MacPherson

I'm sold. I also would like to thank Dan, Leon, et al for their responses. They could have kept their knowledge to themselves which would likely have kept the prices lower. I'm sure I will see some of you in the bidding action. Thanks again, Bruce

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Posted By: Paul

I know "rare" is a relative, subjective term, but I would think if there are only 100 of these, that qualifies as rare. That would mean that there is, on average, about one of each player. People are going to scream when I say this, but that makes the individual cards about as rare as an individual Just So card. There are more total cards known because there are more cards in the set. But to me, that doesn't reduce their rarity.

I'm not trying to hype these. In fact, I should probably just shut up because I'd really like the Alexander and hope that no one else bids on it.

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Posted By: leon

I was referring to the "backs" as not being rare as a whole. Obviously when there is only 1 "back" of/with each player then each player would be rare....again, it's all semantics. ....regards

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

that these auctions are all private, especially since the Seller sells so many items and only these cards appear to be private sales.

I'd be interested to see what SGC says. I am also skeptical of grading companies, but if they found it to be no good, I'd probably pass on any of these. Finally, as to the poster who says he was told by a dealer selling them years ago that they were fake, I too wonder why such comment would be made if untrue. Maybe the ones on Ebay are real and the ones he was selling were reprints of those, but the whole thing still seems strange.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

According to Garner's Modern American Usage RARE refers to a consistent infrequency, usually of things of superior quality. SCARCE refers to anything that is not plentiful, even ordinary things that are temporarily hard to find. This means that something can be considered scarce once demand exceeds supply. Nothing can be rare based solely on demand.

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Posted By: leon

My Stengel is in an SGC30 holder....please don't make me scan it I spoke with SGC, Scott Heilman, at length and he conferred with Bob Luce about these too....they could find nothing wrong. I knew the cards were good as soon as I held one. I wasn't positive about the backs though. All I can say is that many very knowledgable collectors, SGC, and myself think they are good....regards

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I believe these are simply E121 (Series 80) cards with Herpolsheimer advertising on the back. I have to admit I like them - think I will try and win at least one!

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Posted By: hankron

.

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Posted By: fkw

Hi, I have a few of the 1921 Herpolsheimer cards, they are authentic. They are in my opinion more related to the 1920 D327 set (Holsum Bread), and not exactly the E135 or E121 set. They have print font like the E121's but the players seen in the set lean towards a mixture of players from E135 and E121 (W575-1). The 1920 Holsum Bread set is newly checlisted in the 2005 SCD (12 reported so far) but there is a card of Bodie (Wash) pictured on page 171, and there are also at least 3 known Chicago Black Sox players in the Holsum set (Cicotte, Jackson, Williams), all not found in the E121. By the way Ping Bodie never played for Washington, it is just an error.

The first auctions the seller listed said that he had 69 total Herpolsheimer cards from the consignor, with no dups. And if I remember right I thought the first auctions (or seller email replies) said something about the cards originally coming from a family with a Herpolshiemer connection.

My thinking is the 1921 Herpolsheimer cards were never issued in a normal fashion. They may have been printed in small quantities as a demo that wasnt picked up by the company, then eventually fell into a single collection maybe given to a kid who later tried to sell them at a 70's garage sale (The pencil mark prices found on many of the cards backs). Frank

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Posted By: Paul

The Holsum bread connection makes sense to me. That would explain why Leon's Stengel lists him with Philadelphia. (Probably his only card with Philadelphia). I had no idea there were cards of Jackson and Cicotte in the Holsum set, and possibly the Herposheimer set too. I remember seeing E121 style cards of them on ebay awhile back and assuming they were fake.

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Posted By: JDWeller

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31719&item=5151451463

Was this guy a winner of these auctions or is this another grouping? I keep trying to win one and get out bid.

Happy New Year to all,

JD

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Posted By: dan mckee

He won a bunch in the early offerings, now he wants to unload them since he has seen so many offered since.