The "Exclusive 12" of the T205 set

[tedzan]

Hey guys....here is that recurring 12 factor again....that is found throughout the various white-bordered & gold-bordered sets' structure (1909-1914). These 12 subjects in the
T205 set differ from the "Exclusive 12" in the T206 set. There are several reasons why I refer to these 12 as such. For starters, they are the only Minor Leaguers in the T205
set. All 12 subjects represent teams in the Eastern League. They are found only with 2 advertising backs....HASSAN Factory #649 or POLAR BEAR. And their artistic designs are
unlike the other T205 designs. I would speculate that the artist that that drew these 12 subjects is the same artist that created the T80 (Military Series) cards. However, these
12 Minor Leaguers were printed at the tail-end of the T205 press run....as, the bios on the backs of these cards detail events as late as the Summer of 1911.

I do not claim to be an expert on T205's. However, we do have T205 experts on this forum, who have different theories than mine as to when these 12 guys were introduced
into the T205 set. So, I would really appreciate if they would chime in here with their thoughts on this subject.









T80 examples





TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[Ronnie73]

Ted, I always enjoy your thoughts and questions. They always make us think. My thought is that the minor league cards are not a part of the T205 set but a part of the total of T205's. I know this sounds crazy but putting it out there for positive and negative criticism. I think the T205 set that we know of could be T205-1 since they mention the 1910 season and the minor league cards T205-2 and the remainder of the 400 designs maybe a combination of the T205-2 or maybe a T205-3 subset. I find it odd that the minor league cards mention the 1911 season as if it already passed. Kinda like the cards were issued late in the year of 1911 or early 1912. Maybe there were plans for the rest of the 400 designs when something happened and the rest of the 400 (T205-3) were called off. This is just a thought of mine. I just have a hard time believing that the 400 designs is the total of T205's, T80's and the gold border birds series. What does everyone else think? Be easy on me

[Ease]

I do believe the same artist did the fronts for the T43 birds, T80s, and minor league T205s, but the backs on the military series are all "more T206-like" than similar to T205s. Cairo, Uzit, Old Mill, Tolstoi, all brands we don't see in T205. The minor league T205ers have the same style backs as the T205s we know and love. I think the minor leaguers were printed at the same time as the other major league guys, whenever that was. Ron, I dunno man

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by Ease

I do believe the same artist did the fronts for the T43 birds, T80s, and minor league T205s, but the backs on the military series are all "more T206-like" than similar to T205s. Cairo, Uzit, Old Mill, Tolstoi, all brands we don't see in T205. The minor league T205ers have the same style backs as the T205s we know and love. I think the minor leaguers were printed at the same time as the other major league guys, whenever that was. Ron, I dunno man

We have to remember the ATC break up may have caused this difference.

[peterb69]

Jimmy Collins card mentions he retired early 1911 so I also would assume the backs we created late 1911 or very early 1912.

[peterb69]

Also, Ted, that is a very nice Jimmy Collins card. He is my favorite card in the set. Is that auto real? If so then Jimmy had nice pensmenship.

[Wite3]

Ted and Ron,
I have mentioned this before but a little research into the backs of the minor leaguers pretty much proves that they were issued later in the set. Most probably in early 1912...Hick Cady was sold to the Red Sox in January of 1912 and it makes mention of this on his t205 card. Not to mention that many of the cards reference happenings towards the end of the 1911 season (Dunn talks about early August 1911 and Frick being sent to Troy which happened late in the season....he only played about 40 games with Troy).

I have a feeling the fronts were created first but the back type was created later. Thus the mention of some of the team changes, stats, etc. from later in 1911/early 1912.

There are also some other oddities about the teams mentioned on some of the backs of the MLers but they escape me at the moment.

Joshua

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

This is just a thought of mine. I just have a hard time believing that the 400 designs is the total of T205's, T80's and the gold border birds series. What does everyone else think? Be easy on me

Ron I concur. About 2 yrs ago I wrote about the t80 and bird series equaling 400 if we use the front only variations. I have some thoughts on the 12 minor leaguers but its met with resistance. I can say the numbers are uncanny but its just my opinion.

[familytoad]

Steering this back to T205, I think it's a stretch to combine T207 series with T205 to reach the 400 design number. There are too many holes in that theory for me.

I also don't think the Birds or the Generals or any other non-sport set were the missing designs either. It still remains a possibility and all we can do is speculate, but this is just not the thory I choose to side with


I am sticking with the "unfinished set" theory where they simply didn't complete their original intention.
Perhaps the ATC breakup contributed to this. Maybe the cost of these ornate designs simply caused the new bosses to change their minds.

I don't think it would be too difficult (albeit a bit time consuming) to propose the remaining ~192 players into the set. There are lots of established stars missing from T205, likely dozens of fringe players and practically the entire Eastern League to choose from (less 12). Let's take a crack at it...

[cfc1909]

t42 birds and t80 military are not added to t205s to get to 400. Even if you add them all together they still don't come up to 400.

The t42 set has 50 white borders and 50 gold borders. The t80 set is 50 so you would only have 100 gold to ad to your 205 total.

T80s are issued with Cairo Monopol, Lenox, Old Mill, Tolstoi and Uzit. 205 are not issued with these brands and are not related.

Also there are Uzit and Tolstoi letters that say to issue 1 baseball and 1 military subject in each pack of cigarettes. There is no Lenox letter.

[orioles70]

How many Drum backs are out there...50-100?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[tedzan]

orioles70

There are exactly 32 subjects in the T205 set printed with the DRUM back. For more info regarding these DRUM cards,
check-out this thread....... T205 DRUM vs HINDU......


T205 A=B=C=D pattern

. . .

The key factor in this A = B = C = D equation is the Black American Beauty back. NOTE that a T205 subject with a Green American Beauty back
will NOT be found with a DRUM back.

.


T205 A-B-C-D connection.......32 subjects

James Austin
John Bates
Beals Becker
George Bell
William Bergen
Russell Blackburne
Albert Bridwell
Mordecai Brown
Harold Chase (border on shirt)
Frank Corridon
Thomas Downey
Louis Evans
George Graham (blue signature)
Buck Herzog
Richard Hoblitzell
Miller Huggins
Jack Knight
A. Latham
Thomas Leach
John Lobert

Briscoe Lord
Patrick Moran
Frederick Olmstead
George Paskert
Fred Payne
Edward Phelps
John Quinn
Lewis Richie
David Shean
George Stone
Zach Wheat
Harry Wolter

The above 5 subjects in bold letters have yet to be confirmed with the DRUM back. But, they already have been confirmed with the A - B - C backs.
Therefore, I expect these 5 subjects will eventually be discovered with the DRUM back.


After completing my 209-card T205 set [including the Hoblitzell (no stats)]......I continued my T205 "hunt" by forming these A-B-C-D sub-sets.
Here is an example of my favorite......








TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[orioles70]

Ted, thanks for response...that's quite a project...wish you luck in your quest...what T205 cards have been found with the most different advertising on back

John

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by orioles70

Ted, thanks for response...that's quite a project...wish you luck in your quest...what T205 cards have been found with the most different advertising on back

John

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Wolter, Leach, and Phelps are three off the top of my head.

[orioles70]

Thanks...how many different backs for those...is there a spreadsheet showing ad backs known for each card

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Steve D]

A question I've had for a while is, why do the cards of Lee, Nee, Cady, Frick and McAllister (all Newark players) all have white borders? The gold on the bottom 4/5 of each card does not go all the way to the edge, as on every other T205.

Steve

[T205 GB]

Originally Posted by Steve D

A question I've had for a while is, why do the cards of Lee, Nee, Cady, Frick and McAllister (all Newark players) all have white borders? The gold on the bottom 4/5 of each card does not go all the way to the edge, as on every other T205.

Steve

That has always been a mystery. I have long thought T205s are part of the military and bird series. The link is the ML cards. Again that’s just a theory.

[orioles70]

Bump

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[orioles70]

Bump

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk