Seemingly enhanced/altered Harry Truman signed baseball featured on haulsofshame.com

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

So to be fair I'll make that my "handicap"

how do i know it wouldnt make you better at it after a papa doble? haha

I did buy about 25 or so of your signed photos from your boxing signing series, all heavyweights or light heavyweights.



You had said once Zarate was a no show, did you ever get him?

[JimStinson]

LOL....I can't drink 17 Doubles ......The 2nd Firpo compares favorabily to the few I've seen , In defense though he's so scarce I've only seen a couple known real ones.

[JimStinson]

My dear friend Boxing historian Hank Kaplan once showed me the only known "Benny Kid Paret" autograph I've ever seen and Hank and I used to joke that his autograph looked like me was suspended from the ceiling upside down while spinning in a circle while he signed it. Yet I have seen several offered for sale with certs, its laughable

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

LOL....I can't drink 17 Doubles ......The 2nd Firpo compares favorabily to the few I've seen , In defense though he's so scarce I've only seen a couple known real ones.

there are not a lot around, pretty scarce autograph. I had to sell mine though but my friend in argentina, you never know what they have in that box of autographs, maybe more firpo's. She has Alejandro Lavorante, Ringo Bonavena, other Argentinian fighters, and she had a good marciano signed album page, the husband was a longtime collector of autographs.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

My dear friend Boxing historian Hank Kaplan once showed me the only known "Benny Kid Paret" autograph I've ever seen and Hank and I used to joke that his autograph looked like me was suspended from the ceiling upside down while spinning in a circle while he signed it. Yet I have seen several offered for sale with certs, its laughable

Yep, well, they were slabbing and certing the geraldine signed Liston's as real listons until recently when we had to alert them that it wasn't Sonny's autograph. But they did reject a couple of real Liston autographs. Psa rejected one and JSA rejected one. it's laughable.

[scyrkin]

Originally Posted by travrosty

this is what is stated about you, it is true.

cyrkin was one of the founder of pcgs, and collectors universe, he invested 10,000 dollars for 10 percent of pcgs, the coin grading company, and ultimate ended up with over a million shares of stock (about 5 percent) in collectors universe stock when it brought in pcgs.

i provided links to prove it. tell me what i said here that is not true.

You provided links to outdated information from 1999--information you that know is outdated because you accused me of it on my site once and I explained it to you.

But you also said this: "He goes out of his way for no one to know this. no one is suppose to know. He wants people to think he is impartial, and in order to blog on autograph magazine live you have to follow the company line or you are out. Thus the PSA defenders who wants to keep their blogging card there and stay in his good graces."

How could that be true if I don't have any financial interest in PSA or its parent?

Besides, there are a lot of negative comments and posts about PSA/DNA on Autograph Magazine Live. You know it. Like everyone else telling people it's a waste of time to read AML, you obviously read it constantly.

But I do support PSA/DNA and JSA. Why? Because even though I feel that they could and should be better, especially in some areas, overall they have made buying autographs dramatically safer than it was before them.

I'm not going to debate that here. I have a hard enough time trying to keep up with my own site. I wish I did, because I like Net54.

Steve Cyrkin

[JimStinson]

Liston's wife Geraldine insisted her entire life that she NEVER signed for Sonny which we know for a fact is not true. I spoke with Sonny's manager and confidant a couple years ago who also happened to be George Foreman's confidant and he told me that the reason Liston didn;t sign was because it was such a LABORED process it took forever so Sonny would just say "NO". His wife taught him how to sign his name so it looks ALOT like hers but has significant differences , Also as a side note and for historical purposes. Liston's guy told me he was the most "Unlucky" guy in boxing...When Sonny fought Leotis Martin he bought an "option" on BOTH fighters ..who ever won would fight for the heavyweight championship of the World. In a shocking defeat Martin knocked out Liston, and then after the Martin WIN he was diagnosed with a detached retina , which meant he could not fight. So much for hedging your bets ....lol

[JimStinson]

But I do support PSA/DNA and JSA. Why? Because even though I feel that they could and should be better, especially in some areas, overall they have made buying autographs dramatically safer than it was before them.



Steve with all due respect ...BEFORE WHAT ? In the old days dealers with great reputations would give opinions for FREE......FREE , no the hobby was not like clean driven snow , But you had maybe three or ten or more EXPERENCED autograph people going to bat at no charge. I guess because it was FREE it was worthless. If its $100.00 it MUST be worth every dime.
_______________________
Vintage REAL autographs for sale daily
stinsonsports.com

[Big Dave]

+ 1000

[earlywynnfan]

Do you think Firpo went into boxing so he could beat up everyone who made fun of his crazy hairline?? I like the lift he gets, but why is his hairline at a diagonal?

Ken

PS: I know nothing about boxing autos, but if you both drink 17 doubles, I may be able to out-authenticate you both!

[travrosty]

Steve, read what I wrote,

I wrote past tense, he "had" a million shares, he "was" a founder of CU. And then I posted links to prove it.

please read.

you are partial to psa. you like them, that's what partial means.

I read that site as a watchdog, not because it has useful information.

[travrosty]

[QUOTE=JimStinson;1025299]But I do support PSA/DNA and JSA. Why? Because even though I feel that they could and should be better, especially in some areas, overall they have made buying autographs dramatically safer than it was before them.



Steve with all due respect ...BEFORE WHAT ? In the old days dealers with great reputations would give opinions for FREE......FREE , no the hobby was not like clean driven snow , But you had maybe three or ten or more EXPERENCED autograph people going to bat at no charge. I guess because it was FREE it was worthless. If its $100.00 it MUST be worth every dime.

==========================================


I agree with Jim, if paying 100 dollars, you better get a darn good opinion and a free shoe phone from SI!

all this third party certification has done is to slab the fakes and certify the fakes forever in those slabbed tombs, erroneously maybe, an honest mistake maybe, buy now they are in that slab forever.

I said a million times if it was done right with safeguards, checks and balances, and proper time, experience, and weighted thoughtfulness going into the authentications, with checks and balances, and a way for the public to demand honesty, integrity and transparency from the tpa's, i might think it would have some value.

but the way they do it. quick, 50,000 autographs authenticated for mastro in 48 man hours, for 7000 dollars. that's 14 cents per auto and less than 4 seconds to authenticate each autograph, and the authenticator was the consignor to the auction? that is the what steve cyrkin thinks is great?

they have to answer to the stockholders, who want increased share value. so they have to try to give them increased share value, which means increasing submissions, not hiring an adequate amount of people to properly authenticate them all, and authenticating faster and faster outside their area of expertise. whether or not it benefits the consumer or not.

brian sobrero signed off on the hotel registry of jeffries, sharkey, and corbett which as phony as a three dollar bill. i had never heard of sobrero in the boxing autograph community, he signed off on a sunday, which means he was at a show and you have to take your stab at whatever comes in the door, whether you know boxing or not.

I think it hurts the consumer and the hobby. steve cyrkin thinks its good for the hobby.

huggins and scott just auctioned off a signed glove for 2100 dollars with 2 rocky marciano autographs on it, steve.

it sold but the marciano autographs were secretarial, signed by his manager, and all the experienced boxing guys knew it wasn't his signature. why didn't psa?
what's your answer to this?

[JimStinson]

I was there when the process started and it was a GOOD idea, PSA had FOUR count em four of the best autograph guys in the country that looked at the autographs independent of one another and then gave their opinion. 90% of the time we agreed. Yes I was one of the guys. Sometimes we had HEATED debates , like jury duty but in the end we had to all agree , or render a NO OPINION. The rub was a no opinion =a refund so that was not too popular. Then it became why fly FOUR EXPERTS in when we can get by with ONE ? Then it became ......that ONE is too expensive so lets just put a couple guys BEHIND A CURTAIN that will work cheap. In the old days we used to call them "stadium chasers" they were funny to watch. But somewhere between point A and point B they became experts ...But hey spend your money however you like. the facts are the facts and I saw it with my own EYES. I was there. Is the process better than nothing ??? probably especially in light of the fact that the bogus thiefs became more sophisticated to keep up with thier competition...which frankly is like a boy fighting a man. Sorry to tell you there is NO magic wand. Its opinions based on many, many years of experience ...you can't BUY that

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I was there when the process started and it was a GOOD idea, PSA had FOUR count em four of the best autograph guys in the country that looked at the autographs independent of one another and then gave their opinion. 90% of the time we agreed. Yes I was one of the guys. Sometimes we had HEATED debates , like jury duty but in the end we had to all agree , or render a NO OPINION. The rub was a no opinion =a refund so that was not too popular. Then it became why fly FOUR EXPERTS in when we can get by with ONE ? Then it became ......that ONE is too expensive so lets just put a couple guys BEHIND A CURTAIN that will work cheap. In the old days we used to call them "stadium chasers" they were funny to watch. But somewhere between point A and point B they became experts ...But hey spend your money however you like. the facts are the facts and I saw it with my own EYES. I was there. Is the process better than nothing ??? probably especially in light of the fact that the bogus thiefs became more sophisticated to keep up with thier competition...which frankly is like a boy fighting a man. Sorry to tell you there is NO magic wand. Its opinions based on many, many years of experience ...you can't BUY that

+1

[JimStinson]

Thank you but I will probably be sorry I said that in the morning

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

I was there when the process started and it was a GOOD idea, PSA had FOUR count em four of the best autograph guys in the country that looked at the autographs independent of one another and then gave their opinion. 90% of the time we agreed. Yes I was one of the guys. Sometimes we had HEATED debates , like jury duty but in the end we had to all agree , or render a NO OPINION. The rub was a no opinion =a refund so that was not too popular. Then it became why fly FOUR EXPERTS in when we can get by with ONE ? Then it became ......that ONE is too expensive so lets just put a couple guys BEHIND A CURTAIN that will work cheap. In the old days we used to call them "stadium chasers" they were funny to watch. But somewhere between point A and point B they became experts ...But hey spend your money however you like. the facts are the facts and I saw it with my own EYES. I was there. Is the process better than nothing ??? probably especially in light of the fact that the bogus thiefs became more sophisticated to keep up with thier competition...which frankly is like a boy fighting a man. Sorry to tell you there is NO magic wand. Its opinions based on many, many years of experience ...you can't BUY that

+100

Thanks for saying it!

[JimStinson]

Well Good ! I hope I get some help from my friends here or I am f****ed
Because I was not the only one there.
I did not mention any names because they know who they were

[Big Dave]

+1...+1... It's all about the Benjamins......it's not about integrity, accuracy, correctness, honesty, or ethics.....it is all about the Benjamins....bottom line...and nothing else.

[JimStinson]

Ok ...now my friends will step forward at the risk of having EVERYTHING rejected

[Big Dave]

Under the expansion of service, PSA announced the addition of four highly acclaimed autograph experts. James Spence, Jr., Ron Gordon, Richard Simon, and Jim Stinson will each act as authenticators on behalf of PSA/DNA Certified Vintage. "Autograph collecting is a great hobby, unfortunately it has had its share of scandal. A third party authenticator employing world class experts is unprecedented. We are very excited to offer this service and hope it will encourage the growth of the hobby," said Rocchi.
James Spence - a third generation autograph collector, currently authenticates for well-known auction houses, such as Superior Sportcards, Mastro Fine Sports Auctions, and Hunt Auctions; member of the Universal Autograph Collectors Club (UACC) and the Society of American Baseball Research (SABR).
Ron Gordon- a dealer since 1971; subject of several television, radio, and magazine interviews; member of the UACC since 1985. (more) PSA Certified Vintage-and one
Richard Simon - has served as an expert witness in forgery cases as well as written articles for Autograph Collector magazine and Pen and Quill; 14 year member of the UACC; most notable for his consultation to two New York auction houses, including Guernsey's recent sale that featured the $3 million McGwire ball.
Jim Stinson- considered one of the leading authorities on baseball and boxing autographs; professional boxing judge for the WBF; member of the UACC, SABR, The Manuscript Society, and The Hemingway Society and has been featured in USA Today, NBC News, The Chicago Tribune, and Autograph Collector magazine.

[travrosty]

my boss used to tell me, when searching for a vendor to build your product, you can have a quality item, quick turnaround, or a cheap price, - you can pick two of the three, but not all three.


well they seemed to have picked quick turnaround and a cheap running internal operation so you can guess which one is left off?

[Big Dave]

None of those three apply to this situation and company.

All three have vanished.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

i dont know , but there will never be such a competition because they know they would lose. it would have to be an impartial third party who selected the autographs, both real and fake, and see who gets the most right, with no exemplars present, just off of memory. I would love just a joe louis contest, they are clueless when it comes to Louis, a total abomination.

See, my point was that someone would have to select the real and fake autos. So, the contest would be one of who agrees or disagrees with the judge more. Who would the judge be? Who is never wrong?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

See, my point was that someone would have to select the real and fake autos. So, the contest would be one of who agrees or disagrees with the judge more. Who would the judge be? Who is never wrong?

nobody is never wrong. but the third party judge could pick autos with information about them that the participants don't have, like impeccable provenance, in person autos with the recipients still living, and so forth.

not a perfect system but the chances that one autograph making the difference and being in dispute to taint the whole contest would hopefully be slim.

i know if two guys were involved and asked me to be the judge, i am confident i could find a bunch of autographs i knew were good and bad because i would have a lot of time to pick the autographs and use outside help too. the trick is to find some that are not dead on or dead off because you need some of them a little challenging, but not a trick autograph either that doesnt give clues as to its authenticity. i.e. a real autograph written left handed by a righty who did it as a lark. I would have fun doing the contest with anybody I knew had real experience, because maybe i would lose or win by one or two autographs and nothing to be ashamed of, but i know i could beat psa, because they say they know boxing, but do they really? Mix in a preprint, stamp or secretarial in there too. make it a hard test but fair. Losing to psa would be quite embarrassing I would admit but i'm not too worried, they ain't taking me up on the offer because who is their best boxing guy, steve grad? they are the ones who said they needed help in boxing, i am afraid they still do.

http://www.fighttoys.com/PSAHolyfield.htm

http://www.fighttoys.com/PSAMarciano2.htm

psa used to have a contest at the national to test peoples authentication skill, they called it the psa world series of autograph authentication or whatever, richard bond won the first year and mark theotikos won the second year, and then they stopped doing it. but they had some silly time limit and is that what authentication is all about, rushing somebody?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by travrosty

psa used to have a contest at the national to test peoples authentication skill, they called it the psa world series of autograph authentication or whatever, richard bond won the first year and mark theotikos won the second year, and then they stopped doing it. but they had some silly time limit and is that what authentication is all about, rushing somebody?

Well that was just a precursor to the PSA philosophy of getting the work done quickly. Can you imagine a time limit on autograph authentication?? Ridiculous.
And I was not an entrant if anyone was going to ask that question.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

Under the expansion of service, PSA announced the addition of four highly acclaimed autograph experts. James Spence, Jr., Ron Gordon, Richard Simon, and Jim Stinson will each act as authenticators on behalf of PSA/DNA Certified Vintage. "Autograph collecting is a great hobby, unfortunately it has had its share of scandal. A third party authenticator employing world class experts is unprecedented. We are very excited to offer this service and hope it will encourage the growth of the hobby," said Rocchi.
James Spence - a third generation autograph collector, currently authenticates for well-known auction houses, such as Superior Sportcards, Mastro Fine Sports Auctions, and Hunt Auctions; member of the Universal Autograph Collectors Club (UACC) and the Society of American Baseball Research (SABR).
Ron Gordon- a dealer since 1971; subject of several television, radio, and magazine interviews; member of the UACC since 1985. (more) PSA Certified Vintage-and one
Richard Simon - has served as an expert witness in forgery cases as well as written articles for Autograph Collector magazine and Pen and Quill; 14 year member of the UACC; most notable for his consultation to two New York auction houses, including Guernsey's recent sale that featured the $3 million McGwire ball.
Jim Stinson- considered one of the leading authorities on baseball and boxing autographs; professional boxing judge for the WBF; member of the UACC, SABR, The Manuscript Society, and The Hemingway Society and has been featured in USA Today, NBC News, The Chicago Tribune, and Autograph Collector magazine.

I hope people do not think that this is a current press release. .
The best thing about that work was hanging out with Jim Stinson .

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Well that was just a precursor to the PSA philosophy of getting the work done quickly. Can you imagine a time limit on autograph authentication?? Ridiculous.
And I was not an entrant if anyone was going to ask that question.

They used their own template of "under the gun" "beat the clock" authentication" Plus authenticating in that contest by scan only. Nice.

They should bring it back. See who can authenticate the fastest.