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  #1  
Old 11-27-2018, 12:36 PM
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T206Collector T206Collector is offline
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Default To Catch a Signed T206 Forger

As someone who has a significant investment (emotional and financial) in maintaining the integrity of authentic signed T206 cards, I wanted to collect all of the information about the recently identified signed Marquard forgery in one place, in a helpful chronology. I want it all to be at the top of the posting so that updates on the status of identifying the forger, if any, can be included in one post and at the top of a thread.

If you have additional information, please send it to me, or post it below, and I will add it to the chronology.

CHRONOLOGY

August 31, 2017
Authentic signed Marquard Hands at Sides sold in Sig Auctions to a member of the Net54 Community (id: theshleps):

Marquard_CopiedFrom

http://auction.sigauctions.com/rube_...-lot62562.aspx

February 7, 2018
Unsigned Marquard Hands at Sides sold on eBay (item #362228869527) by seller "teri781":

rubeunsigned1

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ube-1913448029

https://www.ebay.com/usr/teri781?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

The seller left positive feedback ("THANK YOU") to the buyer, who has feedback between 10,000-24,999:

ebayMarqUnsignedBuyer


Spring/Summer 2018
Forger copies the authentic Marquard using a technique that lines the signatures up identically.

SpotOnCopydetails

UnsignedThenSignedMarquard


August 16, 2018

A "very reliable source" confirms that the autograph was authenticated by James Spence himself at the CleanSweep Auctions office. The photograph for the LOA was taken on that date; and on August 22, the item was authenticated and given the certification number #z86117:

ForgedMarquardJSA


October 11, 2018
Newly signed Marquard Hands at Sides sold in Clean Sweep Auctions, with full JSA LOA:

CSMarqFake

https://www.cleansweepauctions.com/i...tem=0000616093

Net54 member Clifford Franklin (Net54 id: Marslife) purchases the card and submits it for encapsulation at SGC.


November 13, 2018

SGC rejects the Marquard as "not a genuine example."

ForgedMarquardSGC

November 25, 2018

MarsLife seeks guidance from the Net54 community, wondering whether he purchased a fake Marquard signed T206:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262580

Manny (Net54 id: SetBuilder) cracks the code (and answers the OP's question in the affirmative), and other members of the Net54 community begin to add additional pieces to the puzzle.

Again, if you have additional information, please send it to me, or post it below, and I will add it to the chronology. There are too many witnesses to these events for additional information not to become available over time. As it does, I will compile it here.
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Last edited by T206Collector; 11-27-2018 at 12:51 PM.
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  #2  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:01 PM
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So when I try to contact Teri781 through eBay about item number 362228869475 I get an error message, but when I try to contact Teri781 about any of the other items on this sheet I can see the item and ask a question. What is going on here - am I misreading the id?

https://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...o=362228869527

ebayMarqUnsignedBuyer
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  #3  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:11 PM
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Manny also uncovered an apparent T206 Parent forgery:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262673
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  #4  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:20 PM
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Did you talk to Steve Verkman to find out where he got the card?
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  #5  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:44 PM
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Add some more t206 forgeries to the list: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=262673
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  #6  
Old 11-27-2018, 02:07 PM
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I know you're focusing on the T206s and Leon said his source said they were not submitted by the same person as the T206.. But as pointed out by some, very strange that there was 8 Ted Williams signed cards authenticated right after the Rube M.

I made a thread on the autograph page just showing each Williams off.

Last edited by yanks12025; 11-27-2018 at 02:08 PM.
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  #7  
Old 11-27-2018, 02:22 PM
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The VCP record of that sale has a few different letters than what's in the screenshot above. Not sure if this helps.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Capture.JPG (9.9 KB, 1115 views)
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  #8  
Old 11-27-2018, 02:38 PM
Jasonxmay Jasonxmay is offline
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Default Wow!

Amazing work uncovering this. Makes me glad I just sold my entire collection of vintage signed baseball cards. I had been growing suspicious of the number of tough signed 33 Goudeys that were popping up more frequently. I have seen several in PSA, Beckett, and SGC slabs that I do not believe to be real, but I never took the extra step or looking at past auction sales of the unsigned cards. I expect if you keep digging this problem will be much deeper. Keep up the good work.

Jason
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  #9  
Old 11-27-2018, 03:00 PM
chalupacollects chalupacollects is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector View Post
So when I try to contact Teri781 through eBay about item number 362228869475 I get an error message, but when I try to contact Teri781 about any of the other items on this sheet I can see the item and ask a question. What is going on here - am I misreading the id?

https://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...o=362228869527

ebayMarqUnsignedBuyer
I think because the listing has fallen off eBay's radar... usually 90 days... Watchpoint.com didn't have it either...
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  #10  
Old 11-27-2018, 03:07 PM
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Ebay removes your ability to click on and or search for older sales. However, if you have the exact link from when the sale was made, you can still see the page -- though it is without the pictures. This works back to at least early 2016, though at some point they may fully take pages down rather than just removing the index to them, I don't know because I don't have anything older.

Just a heads up for anyone who likes to over do it on the record keeping. (I quit saving links in favor of screenshots when I realized the pictures disappeared.)



Quote:
Originally Posted by chalupacollects View Post
I think because the listing has fallen off eBay's radar... usually 90 days... Watchpoint.com didn't have it either...
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  #11  
Old 11-27-2018, 03:19 PM
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Default lets make it a little interesting maybe?

What is the current bounty on the Marquard forger?
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  #12  
Old 11-27-2018, 03:24 PM
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I don’t collect these, but my heart goes out to those who do. This is a horrible situation for the hobby, but one that must be cleaned up as quickly as possible. Leon, can you make sure that Brian sees all this? My guess is that, given the recentness of some of these forgeries, that the FBI could find the forger or forgers pretty quickly.
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  #13  
Old 11-27-2018, 03:29 PM
jfkheat jfkheat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector View Post
So when I try to contact Teri781 through eBay about item number 362228869475 I get an error message, but when I try to contact Teri781 about any of the other items on this sheet I can see the item and ask a question. What is going on here - am I misreading the id?

https://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...o=362228869527

ebayMarqUnsignedBuyer
My eBay name shows up on VCP as f***f. I have never used Worthpoint so I'm not sure what it shows as there. I have owned one T-206 card which I listed for sale here 2 1/2 years ago. I can send someone a card that I bought so they can check Worthpoint to see what my user name shows up as on there. I can assure everyone that the f***f is not me.
James
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  #14  
Old 11-27-2018, 03:35 PM
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I've got a lot of feelings today - anger, sadness, frustration, deep deep depression...

...but, I also want my entire collection vetted by Manny and all of the sleuths out there. I don't want to own well made garbage. I want the real thing. And I want it to stand up to any test of authenticity available. I've spent the last several hours combing through Worthpoint on any T206 I got from an auction house in the last several years, and if anyone wants to play along you are more than welcome.

I'm going to be spending a little more time identifying and preserving the provenance of the items I own, including date I picked them up. Most of my cards were purchased in 2008 and earlier. But, including the Sullivan, I do have some real-time exposure on some of my more recent (and expensive) pickups.

I still love my signed T206s, just not the ones signed by Frank Abagnale, Jr.!
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  #15  
Old 11-27-2018, 03:35 PM
SetBuilder SetBuilder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfkheat View Post
My eBay name shows up on VCP as f***f. I have never used Worthpoint so I'm not sure what it shows as there. I have owned one T-206 card which I listed for sale here 2 1/2 years ago. I can send someone a card that I bought so they can check Worthpoint to see what my user name shows up as on there. I can assure everyone that the f***f is not me.
James
Those user names are randomized or scrambled by eBay. They don't correspond to the actual user name.
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  #16  
Old 11-27-2018, 03:36 PM
mrvster mrvster is offline
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Default This

sucks!!! and now makes me suspicious of 206 autographed cards
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  #17  
Old 11-27-2018, 03:40 PM
ALBB ALBB is offline
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Default T206

Incredible detective work on this
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  #18  
Old 11-27-2018, 03:41 PM
jfkheat jfkheat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SetBuilder View Post
Those user names are randomized or scrambled by eBay. They don't correspond to the actual user name.
I know that. My eBay user name is the same as my user name on this and several other forums. My user name always shows as f***f on VCP as the buyer.
James
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  #19  
Old 11-27-2018, 03:54 PM
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PSA and SGC have policies for false authentication. How does this work out for autographs?

Do you want to put some pressure on to find all of the people responsible?

If PSA, SGC and others (JSA) have some type of guarantee then hold them to the guarantee. Hit their bottom line. My guess is that it will do a couple things:
  • Get them motivated to find the source of the problem
  • Make them think twice about just slabbing something based on ONE highly regarded persons opinion

What would be interesting to find out is if there has been a HUGE increase in the number of submissions for signed T-cards in the past few years when compared to the prior years.

How many T206 cards were submitted? How many T205 cards were submitted? I would think that there would have been all kinds of T-cards submitted for authentication, not just T206.

PSA has a pop report for "just cards". Do they also have a pop report for "signed cards"? It would be interesting to see what cards have been authenticated and who the authenticator is. Also, how has the population increased over the years.
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  #20  
Old 11-27-2018, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SetBuilder View Post
Those user names are randomized or scrambled by eBay. They don't correspond to the actual user name.
I've always thought that the two letters that they do show are actually part of the username. Am I wrong about that?
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  #21  
Old 11-27-2018, 04:07 PM
Laxcat Laxcat is offline
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Does anyone else think an “inside man” would be needed for this sort of forgery?
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  #22  
Old 11-27-2018, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred View Post
PSA has a pop report for "just cards". Do they also have a pop report for "signed cards"?
Yes, there is a link at the top of the set pop report that will take you to the bottom, where the PSA/DNA signed card pop report is.
https://www.psacard.com/pop/t206/#DNAPop

However, this is only for all Red Flips and Blue Flips more than 2 years old. Newer blue flips just have "Trading Card" at top; but for vintage signed cards, most would be currently submitted with red flip dual authentication service.
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  #23  
Old 11-27-2018, 04:40 PM
mckinneyj mckinneyj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalupacollects View Post
I think because the listing has fallen off eBay's radar... usually 90 days... Watchpoint.com didn't have it either...
The feedback item immediately below it is accessible and I suspect slightly older as it has a slightly lower item number - they differ in only final 3 digits - 527 vs 475 with the 475 still being accessible but the 527 not.
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  #24  
Old 11-27-2018, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mckinneyj View Post
The feedback item immediately below it is accessible and I suspect slightly older as it has a slightly lower item number - they differ in only final 3 digits - 527 vs 475 with the 475 still being accessible but the 527 not.
Exactly. Something else is at play here.
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  #25  
Old 11-27-2018, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyW View Post
I've always thought that the two letters that they do show are actually part of the username. Am I wrong about that?
It is, however I notice they differ on some auctions, but are changed back in VCP
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  #26  
Old 11-27-2018, 06:20 PM
chalupacollects chalupacollects is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mckinneyj View Post
The feedback item immediately below it is accessible and I suspect slightly older as it has a slightly lower item number - they differ in only final 3 digits - 527 vs 475 with the 475 still being accessible but the 527 not.
That buyer on the Lajoie (ending in 475) only had 197 feedback score so probably not our perp...
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  #27  
Old 11-27-2018, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowpopper View Post
What is the current bounty on the Marquard forger?
Dead or alive, the bounty remains the same: Justice!
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  #28  
Old 11-27-2018, 07:29 PM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
Dead or alive, the bounty remains the same: Justice!
You can pretty much guarantee they are well known in the hobby.
Ya think some hobo is sending in signed t206s and it's going unnoticed?


Greed is a shame, and public humiliation, forced restitution and a beat down would be warranted
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  #29  
Old 11-27-2018, 07:41 PM
HobokenJon HobokenJon is offline
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Default Worth remembering what the "authenticator" said about Mastro

The authenticator in question in my view tossed his reputation out the window with this letter to the court on behalf of Mastro -- after Mastro had been convicted.


And think about it . . . How would anyone know if a purported autograph of an obscure ballplayer from 100+ years ago was real, even in the absence of forensic evidence that it was fake?

Last edited by Leon; 11-27-2018 at 08:33 PM. Reason: took out link
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  #30  
Old 11-27-2018, 08:07 PM
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Not so sure I trust the sig on that letter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HobokenJon View Post
The authenticator in question in my view tossed his reputation out the window with this letter to the court on behalf of Mastro -- after Mastro had been convicted.




And think about it . . . How would anyone know if a purported autograph of an obscure ballplayer from 100+ years ago was real, even in the absence of forensic evidence that it was fake?

Last edited by Leon; 11-27-2018 at 08:33 PM. Reason: took out link
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  #31  
Old 11-27-2018, 08:07 PM
robertsmithnocure robertsmithnocure is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector View Post
Most of my cards were purchased in 2008 and earlier.
Not to be the bearer of more bad news, but there were lots of fakes before 2008 as well.
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  #32  
Old 11-27-2018, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobu View Post
Not so sure I trust the sig on that letter.
I kind of had the same thought. I would think in a few hours one with some technical savvy and a notary embosser could forge those letters all day long.
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  #33  
Old 11-27-2018, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertsmithnocure View Post
Not to be the bearer of more bad news, but there were lots of fakes before 2008 as well.
Sorry, yes. Didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. Just that the dollars at stake for a signed Rube Marquard back then was sub-$400. My first two signed T206s of Rube cost under $100 on eBay in 2004.
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  #34  
Old 12-05-2018, 11:56 AM
topcat61 topcat61 is online now
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I have a few questions for the grading companies and the auction houses... but they're either complicit or incompetent -or probably both.

1) How long to these grading companies spend on examining an autographed card on average?

2) who grades them?

3) what qualifications do they have?

4) Besides the forger, is anyone held legally responsible? How about for authenticating and grading a forged card?

I would think that the FBI should look at this and I'd probably start with SGC first since it looks like they've been authenticating most of these cards.

I'd also start looking at the auction houses and grading companies with a forensic financial investigator. My gut feeling is that these grading companies are giving preferential treatment to the auction houses over collectors and dealers because they're the ones giving the most amount of money. I also suspect that these grading companies are spending an inadequate amount of time on each card because either A) the company doesn't have a copy of the signature on file or B) they're behind on submissions.
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  #35  
Old 12-05-2018, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topcat61 View Post
My gut feeling is that these grading companies are giving preferential treatment to the auction houses over collectors and dealers because they're the ones giving the most amount of money.
I can think of one historical parallel.

Credit rating agencies during the run up to the financial crisis: https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/cre...ng-controversy

"The "Big Three" global credit rating agencies—U.S.-based Standard and Poor’s (S&P), Moody’s, and Fitch Ratings—have come under intense scrutiny in the wake of the global financial crisis. Meant to provide investors with reliable information on the riskiness of various kinds of debt, these agencies have instead been accused of exacerbating the financial crisis and defrauding investors by offering overly favorable evaluations of insolvent financial institutions and approving extremely risky mortgage-related securities."

"Most criticism of credit raters centers on the "issuer pays" model—employed by each of the Big Three—whereby a bond’s issuer pays the rating agencies for the initial rating of a security, as well as ongoing ratings. The public (and investors) can then access these ratings free of charge. The popularity of this model grew in the 1970s, following years of "subscriber pays" dominance, in which investors paid for the ratings instead. Issuers, who needed certain ratings in order to sell their bonds to regulated financial institutions, may have been more willing to pay for these services than investors were, according to a 2010 OECD report [PDF]."

"Critics argue that the ratings agencies failed to take into account the potential for a decline in housing prices and its effect on loan defaults. The agencies’ inflated ratings also failed to account for the greater systemic risks associated with structured products, and they were accused of sacrificing quality ratings to win a bigger share of the lucrative sector. By 2006, Moody’s had earned more revenue from structured finance—$881 million—than all its 2001 business revenues combined."
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  #36  
Old 12-05-2018, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jobu View Post
Ebay removes your ability to click on and or search for older sales. However, if you have the exact link from when the sale was made, you can still see the page -- though it is without the pictures. This works back to at least early 2016, though at some point they may fully take pages down rather than just removing the index to them, I don't know because I don't have anything older.

Just a heads up for anyone who likes to over do it on the record keeping. (I quit saving links in favor of screenshots when I realized the pictures disappeared.)

There is a trick to it. Since ebay changed the way they file these you can use this as a shortcut that should work and then click on Original Item button
(far right).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ITEM#HERE

Last edited by murphy8276; 12-05-2018 at 02:03 PM.
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  #37  
Old 12-05-2018, 02:20 PM
murphy8276 murphy8276 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector View Post
So when I try to contact Teri781 through eBay about item number 362228869475 I get an error message, but when I try to contact Teri781 about any of the other items on this sheet I can see the item and ask a question. What is going on here - am I misreading the id?

https://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...o=362228869527

ebayMarqUnsignedBuyer
This means the item was removed from ebay. Likely returned or removed for a certain reason.
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  #38  
Old 12-05-2018, 05:33 PM
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biggsdaddycool biggsdaddycool is offline
Mike Biggans
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphy8276 View Post
There is a trick to it. Since ebay changed the way they file these you can use this as a shortcut that should work and then click on Original Item button
(far right).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ITEM#HERE


This link is bad.




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  #39  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:00 PM
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swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
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You need to replace his words at the end with the item number in the browser url line.
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Old 12-06-2018, 08:15 AM
topcat61 topcat61 is online now
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Now the latest, and a lot of the people on here and elsewhere know this was going to happen eventually -

https://prewarcards.com/2018/12/06/f...oHFOQV5WcQ64oE
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Old 12-06-2018, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by topcat61 View Post
Now the latest, and a lot of the people on here and elsewhere know this was going to happen eventually -

https://prewarcards.com/2018/12/06/f...oHFOQV5WcQ64oE
Since this site is his source it's probably not necessary to link to his article
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