Is 3000 hits a big deal or overrated?

[packs]

Why would anyone celebrate total bases? You brought up Chili Davis I guess to insinuate he has something over Ichiro just because he has more total bases. Isn't it obvious to you who the better player was? It seems pretty obvious to me who's better. A player can have four or five peak seasons and rack up total bases, then stink for another 10 seasons. What good is that?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

Why would anyone celebrate total bases? You brought up Chili Davis I guess to insinuate he has something over Ichiro just because he has more total bases. Isn't it obvious to you who the better player was? It seems pretty obvious to me who's better. A player can have four or five peak seasons and rack up total bases, then stink for another 10 seasons. What good is that? I would say there isn't one terrible player with 3,000 hits wouldn't you?

Chili Davis was number 100 not top 30.......so you need to take a look at the top 30 total base guys versus the top 30 hit guys...your argument is apples to oranges..however ichiro has been only a replacement level player for at least the last 3-4 years..

by the way mickey vernon is currently number 100 in hits....yes i think chili davis was a better hitter than he was...chili was in 5 all star teams and was also rookie of the year..he also hit 28 home runs and hit .292 in 1986 and did not not make the all star team..he had other non all star seaons where he hit 30 homers. in 1997 ..he also in 1993 had 27 homers and over 100 rbis and didnt make the all star team....

chili davis far exceeded having 4 or 5 peak seasons.....you need to look at the stats... we arent talking about defense..we are just talking about hitting..

the man had 2380 hits and 350 home runs...and only number 100 all time in total bases....


Number 30 of all time in total bases is Andre Dawson by the way, is he a terrible player? I guess because he only have 2774 hits he is not elite like a 3000 hit guy in ichiro...my argument is he did have over 4500 total bases, anything over 4500 total bases should be more celebrated than 3000 hits that are primarily singles

[packs]

So you think Chili Davis and Mickey Vernon and Andre Dawson were all better hitters than Ichiro?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

So you think Chili Davis and Mickey Vernon and Andre Dawson were all better hitters than Ichiro?

No, i think chili davis was better than Vernon..

i think Andrew Dawson is very close correct for the 10 prime years...nobody wants ichiro or dawsnon when he is 40 years old or 39....for the prime years its very close... Dawson did obtain 10 allstar/top 25 mvp finishes and won many gold gloves (defense doesnt matter but just saying he wasnt always a bad knees guy)......he also lost a lot of at bats because he was in the NL where the pitcher makes more outs than a DH does in the AL...

The fact that it is so close is my point..you hear nothing about total bases but there is a countdown for hits..

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by packs

So you think Chili Davis and Mickey Vernon and Andre Dawson were all better hitters than Ichiro?

Andre Dawson career wRC+ : 117

wOBA: .350

Chili Davis career wRC+ : 118

wOBA: .354

Mickey Vernon career wRC+: 115

wOBA: .362

Ichiro career wRC+ : 105

wOBA: .330


so yes, all the hitters you mentioned were better at hitting than ICHIRO

[bravos4evr]

I would take Ichiro over Thome for the top of the order. The only way I take Thome is if I have others just as good as getting on base and he is an upgrade over my middle of the lineup guys. Ichiro is also a good fielder. Thome is not.

Well, for starters, we aren't talking about defense but hitting.

as far as who would be a better lead off man?

ichiro career OBP : .357

Thome career OBP : .402

Thome is so much better a hitter than Ichiro it's not even close, his wRC+ of 145 and wOBA of .405 is elite level, Ichiro is just a tad above avg for two reasons, he wasn't as good at getting on base nor was he as good hitting for power.

Another thing to consider about the 3000 hit club is that it doesn't consider walks either.

Thome hits + walks = 4076 , Isolated Power? .278

Ichiro hits + walks = 3620, ISO? .091


Ichiro was 5% above league avg for his career and this demonstrates how 3000 hits doesn't make one an elite hitter, he wasn't an elite hitter for his career, just slightly above avg because power is important. NOW, that being said, he was a quality player because of his total game of slightly above avg hitting, elite defense and elite baserunning, but his bat alone was not elite.

[packs]

So Ichiro leads the league in hits 5 years in a row, collects 200 hits 10 seasons in a row, sets the major league record for single season hits, leads the league in hitting twice, hits 350 or higher 4 times, but he's not better than Chili Davis and he's only a slight above average hitter.

Okay.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by packs

So Ichiro leads the league in hits 5 years in a row, collects 200 hits 10 seasons in a row, sets the major league record for single season hits, leads the league in hitting twice, hits 350 or higher 4 times, but he's not better than Chili Davis and he's only a slight above average hitter.

Okay.

I not say that so i know your comment is direct to Bravos...I said you have have to compare Ichiro to Andre Dawson. I think Bravos point was just the impact on hitting and actually winning games.

But shallow batting average is just that.. Walks are as good as hits. People that fall in love with .325 also fall in love with 3000 hits. Ill take a guy hitting .270 with 30 homers and 350 total bases over a .350 hitter with zero power and 30 steals with 250 total bases any day of the weak no matter how many 200 hit seasons he gets or batting titles....

Martin Prado is close to winning a batting title in the NL, hes not even a top 30 hitter if that in the NL.....batting titles dont mean that much in terms of someone being an 'elite' player unless there are other stats to back it up..

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by packs

So Ichiro leads the league in hits 5 years in a row, collects 200 hits 10 seasons in a row, sets the major league record for single season hits, leads the league in hitting twice, hits 350 or higher 4 times, but he's not better than Chili Davis and he's only a slight above average hitter.

Okay.

sorry, but those are the FACTS. 105 wRC+ for his career and 100 is average. power matters. He was an elite PLAYER because of his defense and baserunning combined with his hitting from 2001-2010, and if he had quit after 2010 his bat would have been closer to 20% above avg, but for his career, his hitting has only been 5% above avg.

I know many of you still cling to batting average , but the truth is that it is a pretty worthless statistic. It doesn't tell us much at all about hitter production because it ignores walks and it ignores the types of hits a player gets.

Time to evolve with the game folks or get left behind. We have better, newer, more accurate statistics these days, and teams use these numbers as well. It's the scientific expansion of baseball.

[Topps206]

It absolutely is because it takes sustainability and durability. Ichiro got 3000 hits and most take longer than he did in terms of seasons. I think only Rose also got 3000 in his 16th season. Many players have that potential. Not many actually make it.