Greatest quarterback you have seen?

[HRBAKER]

Steve as more of an interested observer - have any of NE's skill folks ever left and "blown up" somewhere else?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Steve as more of an interested observer - have any of NE's skill folks ever left and "blown up" somewhere else?

Short answer - Hardly any that I can recall, and none recently (Plunkett won a SB after he left but was pretty much the same just on a better team)

Longer answer -
Quite a few have come to NE either underused or coming from roles that weren't appropriate - like Welker. He was really good in Miami, but they had him only doing returns the first couple years - Averaged around 3 targets a game. His last year there he averaged 6 targets a game, but only caught about half. Totally killed NE though. And while he's not Mannings favorite he's still doing very well for the number of times he's thrown to. Best catch % since 07 not as good yards/catch, but he is 33 and a most guys who go over the middle as much as he does/did drastically slow down after 30.

Some came here with supposed "issues" Like Corey Dillon. Yeah he bitched a lot after a few years in Cincinnati, but that team was really bad the whole time he was there but kept claiming they were going to get it together. 7 years of that along with the constant turnover of very mediocre QBs would make anyone interested in winning a bit grouchy.
Moss also came in as a washed up malcontent. I was actually disappointed they took him instead of T.O. (So yes, my football skills judgements may be a bit suspect )
Many of those guys were at or near the end of their careers and got in a year or a few more playing at a decent level. Or in the case of Moss a very high level.

A LOT of NE players who have left, skills players or otherwise have done well after leaving. Not blown up, but not much falloff if any. With the number of supporting cast getting moved every year it was and still is fun to see how many EX NE players were in any particular game. Almost all the playoff contenders had a couple.

What fascinates me is the system - I've watched a few shows that actually had access to Bellicheck coaching, and even the approach is somewhat different than some coaches. And it all seems to be geared towards having the people who are happy with a role, and not overloading the guys with potential. One interview with a player who'd been and gone in a year or two was interesting. The player said his first team basically handed him a thousand pages of plays and said "learn this by the end of camp" Then sent him out on plays he wasn't suited for or into bad matchups. Result? Poor performance and poor confidence. Patriots? He said they had him learn basic stuff in camp but focused on skills and work. First week he had a total of two plays he had to know inside out and had to know what situation they thought those plays might be used. And when that situation came up he had to be standing there ready to go in. Week 2 a few more plays. And if he was ready he got to go in on plays he was suited for usually with a decent matchup. Result? Less playing time fewer plays, but far better results and very high confidence.
(I don't have the skills for sure, but I've heard that knowing you can do what's needed to compete is way more important than it might seem)

Steve B

[itjclarke]

Steve- interesting comments regarding Bellicheck. I've thought, throughout the Pats' run that they've created ideal niche roles for many of their players. Welker is a great example, as was Woodhead and now Edelman. Once these guys are inserted in their role, they perfect that role. Then through a well crafted game plan and a QB who executes it, they can all flourish within that role... rarely stepping outside it. I have seen on occasion Welker and Edelman beat guys deep, but it's been far and few between. I saw Moss catch a few underneath, but that was few and far between.

I don't think you see such clearly defined player roles on many/any other NFL teams... and with these role players contributing at "star" levels. The Spurs over the years are very similar in basketball, and this year maybe the Hawks/Warriors.

Over the offseason, the Niners were reportedly interested in signing Edelman, however I have little faith they'd have come anywhere close to using him as effectively as the Pats have.. Especially with Kaep at QB.

[steve B]

Of course the flip side of that is guys like Troy Brown who did reasonably well when he was needed as a defensive back, and the bunch of other guys who have stepped outside any traditional role. Edelman throwing, Vinateri throwing for a TD, Vrabel with 8 TDs as a receiver(Plus two more with KC after) I'm sure there are a few I've forgotten.

Brown was "cut" a few times to make cap room, and usually went "fishing" and wasn't available for other teams to talk to. Then was signed just before camp. A very odd sort of flexibility that really requires trust on both sides.

Steve B

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Steve- interesting comments regarding Bellicheck. I've thought, throughout the Pats' run that they've created ideal niche roles for many of their players. Welker is a great example, as was Woodhead and now Edelman. Once these guys are inserted in their role, they perfect that role. Then through a well crafted game plan and a QB who executes it, they can all flourish within that role... rarely stepping outside it. I have seen on occasion Welker and Edelman beat guys deep, but it's been far and few between. I saw Moss catch a few underneath, but that was few and far between.

I don't think you see such clearly defined player roles on many/any other NFL teams... and with these role players contributing at "star" levels. The Spurs over the years are very similar in basketball, and this year maybe the Hawks/Warriors.

Over the offseason, the Niners were reportedly interested in signing Edelman, however I have little faith they'd have come anywhere close to using him as effectively as the Pats have.. Especially with Kaep at QB.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by steve B

Of course the flip side of that is guys like Troy Brown who did reasonably well when he was needed as a defensive back, and the bunch of other guys who have stepped outside any traditional role. Edelman throwing, Vinateri throwing for a TD, Vrabel with 8 TDs as a receiver(Plus two more with KC after) I'm sure there are a few I've forgotten.

Brown was "cut" a few times to make cap room, and usually went "fishing" and wasn't available for other teams to talk to. Then was signed just before camp. A very odd sort of flexibility that really requires trust on both sides.

Steve B

I loved Troy Brown when he played DB those couple years. Edelman played some DB as well (both out of necessity). They, and Woodhead were all incredibly versatile.. pure football players who will do anything asked. I'm sure Edelman could kick/punt too.

I'm not really saying these guys can only do one thing.. But that their roles are so well utilized, they can flourish within them. I don't think Edelman likely becomes a star anywhere else. I'm not sure he even gets a shot anywhere else, but the Pats have a knack at finding malleable pieces that can fit their system. Edelman is a great slot guy, and also nicely fills the roll of the old wing or "fly back" on those quick running sweeps. I'm guessing he'll pass out of the look at some point too.

Player versatility is always a good thing. Guys like Harbaugh (Roman) made a living with that at Stanford and the NFL. He could just as easily pass out of a two TE, one fullback, jumbo package as he could out of 4-5 wides, just because his players could perform both rolls. The Niners were at their peak when they had both Delaney Walker and Vernon Davis because both could run block, allowing the Niners to pound it, and both were really fast, creating major mismatches... Thus the Niners could accomplish a wider range of things out of a single look than is the norm. This, when working was a nightmare for defenses trying to sub to the right personnel packages, and make their calls. I think losing Delaney this past year was a pretty big blow to the Niners, because they lost some of that versatility.

[steve B]

Versatility is always good.

Some of the doing well in the role is because the roles are adjusted to the players best skills. I think it was in the episode of a football life Bellicheck talked about how if a route calls for a player to get to a spot say going 15 yards deep and cutting left but it needs to be done in a certain time like 3 seconds and the guy you have isn't quick enough? Then you adjust the route to maybe 12 yards or a softer cut so he's in place right on time (Assuming proper execution) There was also talk about not adjusting towards a teams weaknesses, but more towards limiting their strengths by play selection and matchups. Very interesting stuff. The scene where Brady is in his office either early or late and watching video of plays until he notices some tiny thing that's tipping when the opponent might be out of position.....Great behind the scenes stuff.

Steve B

Originally Posted by itjclarke

I loved Troy Brown when he played DB those couple years. Edelman played some DB as well (both out of necessity). They, and Woodhead were all incredibly versatile.. pure football players who will do anything asked. I'm sure Edelman could kick/punt too.

I'm not really saying these guys can only do one thing.. But that their roles are so well utilized, they can flourish within them. I don't think Edelman likely becomes a star anywhere else. I'm not sure he even gets a shot anywhere else, but the Pats have a knack at finding malleable pieces that can fit their system. Edelman is a great slot guy, and also nicely fills the roll of the old wing or "fly back" on those quick running sweeps. I'm guessing he'll pass out of the look at some point too.

Player versatility is always a good thing. Guys like Harbaugh (Roman) made a living with that at Stanford and the NFL. He could just as easily pass out of a two TE, one fullback, jumbo package as he could out of 4-5 wides, just because his players could perform both rolls. The Niners were at their peak when they had both Delaney Walker and Vernon Davis because both could run block, allowing the Niners to pound it, and both were really fast, creating major mismatches... Thus the Niners could accomplish a wider range of things out of a single look than is the norm. This, when working was a nightmare for defenses trying to sub to the right personnel packages, and make their calls. I think losing Delaney this past year was a pretty big blow to the Niners, because they lost some of that versatility.

[t206blogcom]

Joe Montana #1 all time.

Favre and Brady are tied for 2nd in my opinion.