Beware Carterscards2006

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?

anyone?

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

anyone?

The answer is no. You'd then return it to SGC(assuming it's still holdered), and get your money from them. From the SGC website.

"The SGC Guarantee

SGC Guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded by SGC grading experts in accordance with SGC grading procedures. In the event the owner of an SGC card believes that the card has been overgraded with respect to such procedures, the owner may resubmit the card to SGC for a review of the assigned grade.

If the grade determined under such review is lower than that originally assigned to the card, SGC shall, at SGC's discretion, either replace the card or pay the difference between the current fair market value of the card at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such card, in the form of either cash or grading credit. Due to the volatile nature of the sportscard market and Internet auctions/sales, the selling prices in these auctions do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular sportscard. SGC will determine the current fair market value of a card which is assigned a lower grade on review, based upon what SGC believes to be reliable current market information. Clerical errors with respect to the description or grade of the card(s) which would be obvious upon inspection shall not be subject to the SGC guarantee stated herein."

[pwilk17]

What if PSA says a card is trimmed and SGC swears the card is not trimmed - what then? What if SGC says a card is trimmed and GAI swears it is not trimmed? What if PRO says a card is trimmed and SGC swears it is not trimmed? What then?

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by pwilk17

What if PSA says a card is trimmed and SGC swears the card is not trimmed - what then? What if SGC says a card is trimmed and GAI swears it is not trimmed? What if PRO says a card is trimmed and SGC swears it is not trimmed? What then?

Well, that's where this gets tough, because GAI won't be doing anything at this point. Anyways, I'm pretty sure PRO wouldn't notice that it's trimmed, I think they'd just cross over. But let's be serious, who's gonna cross over a card to PRO? Let's just forget about PRO all-together.

PSA also has a financial guarantee.

"The PSA Financial Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in its tamper-evident holder.

PSA guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

If PSA, in fact, concludes that the card in question no longer merits the PSA grade assigned or fails our authenticity standards, PSA will buy the card back from the submitter at the current market value. The current market value is determined by PSA, based in part on SMR values and/or recent prices realized from the marketplace. PSA has sole discretion in regards to the buyback price."

HOWEVER, I've noticed that none of these companies seem to mention anything about another company deeming their cards unworthy of the given grade. At that point, it would be in the best interest to send back the still holdered card, along with the report from the second grading company to show PSA or SGC what was found, and then let them make the call from there.

Now as far as GAI goes... I believe Baker bought the old company and re-branded it, rather than starting a brand new company. Assuming that's the case, it should put him on the hook for any original GAI assets and/or screw ups.

[pwilk17]

That is why I say - No Return - Todd bought the card in a GAI slab. Todd was relying on GAI's opinion that the card was not trimmed. He cannot now say it is trimmed because SGC said it is so. Todd is now deciding that the card is trimmed based on what - because SGC says it is so? or in his own opinion it is? So what? SGC and Todd are not the masters of the universe. If Todd bought the card in a SGC slab and then PRO (I am using PRO to make a point) says it is trimmed - does Todd now believe he has sufficient proof to get a refund or to have SGC pay him the difference - SGC would say PRO is full of something and not pay Todd the difference. Todd bought the card in a GAI slab - case closed.

[edhans]

Lee,
It was a mid to low grade group of T205s. It was sometime last fall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger8mush View Post
So if I won a SGC numerically graded card from a Brockelman & Luckey auction and sent the card to PSA (in the SGC holder) and it came back as trimmed, should Leon give me my money back?
anyone?

The answer is yes. If the card is trimmed, the holder and any warranties, guaranties or disclaimers are irrelevant. The seller is responsible for the product he sells. The product under warranty is the card. The holder is merely one man's opinion of the authenticity, originality and grade of the card. Errors can, and have, been made. Sellers cannot hide behind grading company's mistakes. It's the duty of the seller to make the buyer whole and pursue any claim he may have against the grading company.

In the case of the 57 Banks, Tony listed the card as a PSA 7. By not expressly disclaiming that grade, he warranted that it was in near mint condition. If David could prove that the card wasn't in near mint condition, he is entitled to a refund. As a practical matter, that burden of proof would be exponentially more difficult than a trimmed vs 7.5. Another TPG's rating of EM6 would probably not be sufficient proof in this case.

[lharri3600]

Originally Posted by pwilk17

What if PSA says a card is trimmed and SGC swears the card is not trimmed - what then? What if SGC says a card is trimmed and GAI swears it is not trimmed? What if PRO says a card is trimmed and SGC swears it is not trimmed? What then?

And The Band Played on!!

[Jlighter]

I REALLY don't feel like reading all this, but with over 500 posts there has to be something decent. Could someone please sum it up.

[itslarry]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

I REALLY don't feel like reading all this, but with over 500 posts there has to be something decent. Could someone please sum it up.

well, after reading the first 20pgs so far,
http://www.bash.org/?23396

seems to some it up, except moAr angry

[Edwolf1963]

Very interesting read! I keep going back to simple communication being the root of many problems.

The opinions of who knew what and what Carters does/does not have to do are all subject to opinion and debate. To me, it all goes back to the fact that Carters has not responded to Todd in any way. Back to Johnny's point, the silence, ignoring, hope you'll go away stuff says more to me about this situation and Carters than anything else. That doesn't help anyone or anything - it's the root cause of this issue.

Seriously, would this thread even be here if Carters were to have responded to Todd? Picked up the phone, tried to work out some sort of mutually acceptable solution? And at the end of the day if the buyer is unhappy, then make him happy - resolve the situation and give him his money back!

Is it really worth it to hang on to Todd's money and wait and see what kind of vengence he can bring? Especially since they know they'll lose anyway (it is true that "all sales final", "no refunds", etc means nothing to eBay - if he sends the card back in same case/same condition .. and SGC won't crack unless you tell them to .. Todd will win whether or not you/me/Carters agrees with it) - so why ignore him - what will that get you..??

And wouldn't we all want to do business with someone who stands behind what they sell? Will be there to at least be respectful, listen and respond if I have a question/need? Treat me as a customer as they would want to be treated in kind? To me, that's what it all comes down to. I realize there are extreme circumstances (abuse, unreasonable demands, disrespectful behavior, etc) - but for most of us, the times when a customer is unhappy and wants an exception is rare - so why not step up and resolve the situation?

One thing out of all this is that I know I will avoid Carters .. not because of opinions on who's right, whether or not they knew the card was trimmed or shill accusations, etc. .. but because they haven't at least responded to Todd. Disrespectful and says a lot about them/the kind of business they run.

[pwilk17]

Ed - you are still not pointing out what party can absolutley determine that a card has been trimmed or not - Who can say with a 100% certainty that a card is trimmed and eligible for a refund or restitution from a grading company? No one can prove that the card has been trimmed with a 100% certainty!

[pgellis]

Originally Posted by pwilk17

Ed - you are still not pointing out what party can absolutley determine that a card has been trimmed or not - Who can say with a 100% certainty that a card is trimmed and eligible for a refund or restitution from a grading company? No one can prove that the card has been trimmed with a 100% certainty!

+1

[pgellis]

A lot of people are assuming that Carter's knew that the card was trimmed when they sold it. How can someone come to this conclusion? It was in a legitimate TPG case. You can say all you want about GAI, but if I buy a card in a GAI case with a numerical grade, I assume that it is not trimmed. That is what Carter's did (I assume) in this case. Then when they sell it, they are selling it as a card that has passed GAI's specifications. They are not selling a card that has passed SGC's specs.

Some people are saying that "the customer is always right" and that a business owner should always refund a customer his money when asked, for any reason. That is from the mouths of people who have never been in business for themselves. Try running a business like that and see how long you stay in business. Of course you want to have a good reputation in business and don't want disgruntled customers, but it is a balancing act between good customers and customers who feel that they deserve everything.

The OP has done enough damage on this forum to Carters already and smeared his name on here enough that some members will not deal with them. I find it funny that this is the first negative incident with this dealer that has 3000 positive feedback. They seem to make most everyone else that they deal with happy.

[pwilk17]

Hi Ed - My reply was to Ed Hans post - not yours - Ed Hans keeps insisting that if the card is trimmed that the buyer is entitled to restitution - I am asking him who can determine that a card is trimmed with 100% certainty. No one can! 5,000 experts can say it is trimmed and 5,000 experts can say it is not - who is right? SGC and Todd are not the masters of the universe in the matter of the GAI card - GAI says it not trimmed - Todd bought the GAI card.

[Edwolf1963]

Originally Posted by pwilk17

Ed - you are still not pointing out what party can absolutley determine that a card has been trimmed or not - Who can say with a 100% certainty that a card is trimmed and eligible for a refund or restitution from a grading company? No one can prove that the card has been trimmed with a 100% certainty!

But that's beside the point - didn't I express that above..?! Who knows, who cares - we can debate that one for eternity. I don't disagree w/you, but that's not the point. The customer is unhappy (for whatever reason) - requests a refund - seller does not at least consider/respond = issue. How do I resolve the issue?

Not about who's right or wrong (IMO), it's about how can I be reasonable and respond, work with, try an find some solution that I can live with and keep my customer happy. I'd rather manage my reputation proactively and have Todd post something (here, Google, Yelp, etc) about buying from me w/confidence and why as opposed to this!