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View Poll Results: Can Trout replace cobb?
Yep hes already has 3 7.32%
No way ! 20 48.78%
Sure but needs more seasons of the same 17 41.46%
Whos mike trout? 1 2.44%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

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  #11  
Old 04-26-2018, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by EvilKing00 View Post
I know it sounds crazy but take a good look at chippers numbers, they are sick. Compare to the other 2. And im a damn met fan
If we're going on the numbers, Schmidt beats Chipper Jones...easily. That's not to say Chipper Jones wasn't a great player. But he was never as dominant as Michael Jack Schmidt.

In 19 seasons, Chipper led the league in batting once. OBP once. OPS once. And, OPS + once.

In 18 seasons, Mike Schmidt led the league in runs scored once, home runs eight times, RBIs four times, walks four times, OBP three times, SLG five times, OPS five times, and OPS + six times.

Relative to their peers, Schmidt was better. Chipper had a 141 career OPS +. He was 41% above league average for his career. Schmidt's career OPS + was 147. And Chipper is in the Hall of Fame based on his offense. He has a -0.9 career dWAR per BR. Schmidt was 6% better than Chipper, relative to their individual peers. And defensively? Schmidt blows him out of the water. Schmidt has an 18.4 career dWAR.

Fangraphs? Though Chipper Jones had 552 more career PAs (roughly one season's worth), Schmidt had a much higher career WAR. Jones had 84.8. Schmidt had 106.5.

Awards? Chipper won one MVP and two Silver Sluggers.
Mike Schmidt won three MVPs, six Silver Sluggers (and the award wasn't first handed out until 1980, essentially Schmidt's eighth season in the Majors. He would have won at least two more, if not three or four. Oh, and Schmidt won ten Gold Gloves. Among corner infielders, only Brooks Robinson (16 at third base) and Keith Hernandez (11 at first base) have ever won more. Neither of them were even close to being the offensive force Schmidt was.

Chipper is a worthy Hall of Famer. But Mike Schmidt is the gold standard at third base.

In addition to Brett, I would put Eddie Mathews ahead of Jones, too. Eddie Mathews had 96.6 WAR per FA, 96.1 WAR per Fangraphs. His prime-1953 to 1961-saw him put up a 158 OPS + (over the same span, Hank Aaron, from 1954 to 1961, put up a 153 OPS +; take out Aaron's rookie year of 1964, he had a 159 OPS + from 1955 to 1961-one point higher than Mathews).

Mathews 162 game average from 1953 to 1961:

.288 AVG, 116 runs, 172 hits, 25 doubles, 7 triples, 42 home runs, 114 RBI, 106 BB, slash line of .393 OBP/.558 SLG/.951 OPS, 158 OPS +.

That's over the span of just under 6,000 plate appearances.

Chipper Jones, per BA, had three seasons with a 7 + WAR (7 WAR is considered MVP level): 7.6 in 2007, 7.3 in 2008, and 7.1 in 1998.

Eddie Mathews had eight seasons with a 7 + WAR: 8.3 in 1953, 8.2 in 1959, 8.0 in 1963, 8.0 in 1954, 7.4 in 1957, 7.4 in 1960, 7.3 in 1955, and 7.2 in 1961.

Jones had eight seasons of 5 + WAR (All Star level). Mathews had twelve.

People tend to overlook Mathews. Between 1953 and 1961, in the American League, between ages 21 and 29, Mickey Mantle had 76.9 WAR for the Yankees. Over that same period, also between ages 21 and 29, Eddie Mathews had 66.0 WAR. Mantle averaged slightly above 1 WAR, per season, better than Mathews. The only other player in the Majors that had more WAR than Mathews over that nine year span was Willie Mays, at 71.8.

Mathews was an elite player. For nearly a decade (nine years), he averaged 7.3 WAR per season, or 7.8 WAR per 162 games. In other words, he played at an MVP level for nine years straight. And he wasn't even the best player on his team.

Why is he overlooked? Bill James, in his 2003 Historical Baseball Abstract, ranked all players by position. That Braves team of the 50s and early 60s had three historic players: Hank Aaron (#2 all-time right fielder behind only Babe Ruth), Warren Spahn (#5 pitcher all-time), and Eddie Mathews (#3 third baseman all-time). Of his 363 total career wins, Spahn won 356 for the Braves. He had thirteen 20-win seasons. And, oh yeah, Hank Aaron broke the Babe's career home run record. So, there's that. What's Mathew's claim to fame? He never won an MVP. He hit 500 home runs, but Aaron hit a lot more. He tends to get lost in the cracks. But he shouldn't. He's better than Chipper Jones.
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  #12  
Old 04-26-2018, 09:21 AM
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Pujols 1B
Robinson 2B
Jeter SS
Boggs 3B
Ivan Rodriguez(pre weight loss) C
Williams LF
Cobb C
Aaron RF
Ruth DH
Clemens P
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  #13  
Old 04-26-2018, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
You can't take Clemente over Aaron in right. No comparison. I'd take Frank Robinson over Clemente. Or Musial, Cobb or Mantle out of position.
Sure you can. Willie Mays said Clemente was the best player he ever saw (outside of himself). That covers everyone but Cobb on your list. Orlando Cepeda who was a teammate of both Mays and Aaron said Clemente was better. My team

RF Clemente
CF Mays
LF Ruth
SS Wagner
3b Schmidt
2b Hornsby
1b Gehrig
C Josh Gibson
DH Williams
RHP Johnson
LHP Koufax
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  #14  
Old 04-26-2018, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by rats60 View Post
Sure you can. Willie Mays said Clemente was the best player he ever saw (outside of himself). That covers everyone but Cobb on your list. Orlando Cepeda who was a teammate of both Mays and Aaron said Clemente was better. My team

RF Clemente
CF Mays
LF Ruth
SS Wagner
3b Schmidt
2b Hornsby
1b Gehrig
C Josh Gibson
DH Williams
RHP Johnson
LHP Koufax
I'll take the numbers over two anecdotes. And they aren't even close, if you look at for example Baseball Reference.

Here is Roberto.

Black Ink
Batting - 23 (90), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 154 (82), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 231 (32), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 51 (83), Average HOFer ≈ 50


And here is Hank.

Black Ink
Batting - 76 (8), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 408 (2), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 421 (3), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 75 (9), Average HOFer ≈ 50

There's a great deal of, what's the word, romance around Clemente, perhaps because of his flair and charisma, perhaps because of his early death. But the numbers just aren't there. In 2003 Bill James ranked him something like 70th on his all time list. I would put him a lot higher than that, but he isn't anywhere close to Aaron IMO.
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Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 04-26-2018 at 02:21 PM.
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  #15  
Old 04-26-2018, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I'll take the numbers over two anecdotes. And they aren't even close, if you look at for example Baseball Reference.

Here is Roberto.

Black Ink
Batting - 23 (90), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 154 (82), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 231 (32), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 51 (83), Average HOFer ≈ 50


And here is Hank.

Black Ink
Batting - 76 (8), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 408 (2), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 421 (3), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 75 (9), Average HOFer ≈ 50

There's a great deal of, what's the word, romance around Clemente, perhaps because of his flair and charisma, perhaps because of his early death. But the numbers just aren't there. In 2003 Bill James ranked him something like 70th on his all time list. I would put him a lot higher than that, but he isn't anywhere close to Aaron IMO.
I could list several more Hofers like Sparky Anderson and Lou Brock. If you don't care about defense, you can argue Aaron was a better hitter, though his numbers are inflated by playing in easy hitters parks. I value great defensive players and players that gave 100% all the time. I will take Clemente and Mays over any other players that I have seen play.

There is no romance around Clemente. He was regarded as the best player in baseball in the late 60s/early 70s after Mays and Mantle were in decline. There are plenty of quotes from that era including a 1968 article in Sport where he was chosen the best player in baseball by MLB GMs. There are even a quotes from Aaron (who was upset that others thought Clemente was better) such as "When you're second best, you try harder." from a 1967 article. If anything, Clemente doesn't get the respect that he deserves from modern analysts who never saw him play.
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  #16  
Old 04-27-2018, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
I'll take the numbers over two anecdotes. And they aren't even close, if you look at for example Baseball Reference.

Here is Roberto.

Black Ink
Batting - 23 (90), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 154 (82), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 231 (32), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 51 (83), Average HOFer ≈ 50


And here is Hank.

Black Ink
Batting - 76 (8), Average HOFer ≈ 27

Gray Ink
Batting - 408 (2), Average HOFer ≈ 144

Hall of Fame Monitor
Batting - 421 (3), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards
Batting - 75 (9), Average HOFer ≈ 50

There's a great deal of, what's the word, romance around Clemente, perhaps because of his flair and charisma, perhaps because of his early death. But the numbers just aren't there. In 2003 Bill James ranked him something like 70th on his all time list. I would put him a lot higher than that, but he isn't anywhere close to Aaron IMO.
Your posts are usually spot on, Peter. But the numbers comparison is a bit of a stretch. Come on. Comparing Hall of Fame metrics for the two players is silly. Clemente played in 2,433 games. Aaron played in 3,298. Aaron's career was a third longer than Clemente's. Of course his metrics dwarf Clemente's. And you can't make the argument that Clemente wouldn't have added to his own metrics tremendously had he continued playing. His last five years, Roberto was actually getting better. He was a little dinged up in 1972, so he played in only 102 games. But he still hit .312, and OPS +'d 138. The year prior, at age 36, he hit .341 with a 143 OPS +. He had a 7.3 WAR at age 36. At age 35 in 1970, he hit .352 with a 160 OPS +. Clemente was a .334 hitter with a 157 OPS + his last five seasons. At the end of the 1966 season, he was a career .310 hitter in over 7,000 career PAs. He raised his average 7 points from age 32 on, and would have continued raising it even further had he lived. From 1966 to 1972, age 31 to 37, he averaged 8.9 WAR per 162 games played. He'd made no plans to retire. His game was built to play into his early 40s. He was in absolutely ridiculous shape.

There's no romanticism involved. The guy was a fantastic player. He didn't hit home runs by choice. He felt that he helped his team more by hitting for average that going for home runs. He put the success of the team first. To suggest that he couldn't hit home runs like Aaron is silly. He tailored his game for the park he played most of his games in. But his power is legendary.
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  #17  
Old 04-27-2018, 12:41 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwPvjK2mrsw

Clemente hit this opposite field home run to the upper deck at Tigers stadium....swinging off his front foot. Look where he hit the damned ball. Same spot where Johnny Bench hit the ball earlier in the game.
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Last edited by the 'stache; 04-27-2018 at 12:42 AM. Reason: Youtube embed doesn't work in the water cooler forum
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  #18  
Old 04-27-2018, 08:04 AM
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Aaron would never make any list.

Extremely overrated.

- Mark
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  #19  
Old 04-27-2018, 08:27 AM
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Since y'all love anecdotes.

"As far as I'm concerned, (Hank) Aaron is the best ball player of my era. He is to baseball of the last fifteen years what Joe DiMaggio was before him. He's never received the credit he's due." Source: Baseball Digest (June 1970)
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  #20  
Old 04-27-2018, 08:45 PM
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Iíll take Trout, Salmon & Bass in the outfield, but donít have an infield that can swim.
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