Thank you to Leon and supporters: Jim Thorpe Show TOMORROW

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Just wanted to say thanks to all the supporters on this board. From those of you who are setting up, to guys like Joe Drelich who's been a lot f help to those of you who say they're coming, but most of all to Leon for letting a board newb try and get a show off the ground. I have no idea what to expect tomorrow, and worst case scenario is scary to think about, but I've met some great people along the way.

Thanks,

Scott Russell

[Leon]

I hate having my name in lights but it is this board's pleasure to try to help shows and local card stores get off the ground and keep going. They are some of what is good in the hobby. Good luck!!

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Just wanted to say thanks to all the supporters on this board. From those of you who are setting up, to guys like Joe Drelich who's been a lot f help to those of you who say they're coming, but most of all to Leon for letting a board newb try and get a show off the ground. I have no idea what to expect tomorrow, and worst case scenario is scary to think about, but I've met some great people along the way.

Thanks,

Scott Russell

[glynparson]

i may take some high grade prewar if i can get someone to loan me a showcase. i sold mine 7 years ago when I opened my employment service (I sold it last month so i am back doing shows). If anyone has an extra and will be there at setup please let me know. I will gladly pay a reasonable rental fee.

[RedsFan1941]

I hope the Net54 members attending will post updates and photos from the show. Was hoping to attend but can not now. Sounds like it wil be great.

[rjackson44]

Good luck scott octavio

[pherbener]

Good luck with the show Scott. The kid's got a hockey game in Mechanichsburg at 11:00. If I get done in time, I'll stop on the way home.

[tennisguy]

Any reports on how the show went this weekend?

[Cobra Kai]

Did anyone attend the show?

[philliesfan]

I was set up at booth # 33..........Well things kind of did not go the way I thought. I did fine selling but my son did not come with me so I did not get a chance to look or shop around. I will not leave my booth completely unattended, so I am not sure what to say as far as what other dealers had.

As I stated, I was at booth #33 and I had small selection of PSA graded 1950's to the mid 1990's, other star cards, some nice raw 1960's hockey, and a nice stack of 1975 Topps baseball commons from rack packs. I also had some oddball items like a set of 1972 baseball batting helmet cards which are very difficult to find, and both quarter and dollar boxes. I covered my table fee with the sales from both the dollar and quarter boxes.

I met a few people from the PSA message boards and some from these net54 boards. It was nice to actually meet a few members and nice conversation.

From the little I did wander, I saw some BBCExchange wrapped boxes form about 1980 to 1986 in baseball and football, some other graded and raw cards, and a couple of hockey jerseys.

The crowd started slow as a half hour went by with me seeing only a couple of customers but it did pick up nicely. It seemed to me that the crowd was small but they came to spend. I wish I could report the results from the auction but I was distracted talking to customers most of the time.

I am looking forward to next years show if Scott decides to continue.

Thanks,
Robert

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

OK I needed a few days to unwind and reflect. Here's my thoughts. We had some AMAZING dealers. Glen Mechanick from these boards has SICK stuff. Glyn Parson is always a welcome addition, Dave Czuba had his usual big stuff including a '52 Topps Mantle, my partner Aaldert Oosting had a fantastic selection of Caramel and T206 cards (some of which are up in the BST section of this site now) and I had my usual run of vintage stuff. This is just the tip of the iceberg and mainly the guys who were located near me, I'm sure the other dealers were great as well but I didn't have much time to browse.

The attendance was poor, but as intended the $5 admission insured that those who came, came to buy. We had a number of issues with the venue which either need to be solved, or we need to relocate, some of these issues may well have impacted turnout to some degree.

The autographs were an unmitigated disaster. The guests themselves couldn't have been nicer, and the little bit of time I got to spend with them was probably the highlight of my day. They could see how things were going so they accommodated any and all requests and were more than happy to tell stories and just meet with people and shake hands etc... Unfortunately we lost thousands of dollars not just in fees, but in all the materials needed to do autographs. If we do move forward it will probably be years before we bring in autograph guests again.

In all with the low attendance I was excited by how positive the dealers were in general and their attitude was what made me consider how we might proceed. If you had asked me right after the show I would've (and did) say NEVER AGAIN!

Thanks again to all those who showed me support and encouragement!

[basesareempty]

Sorry to see your show was less than expected. I wanted to do your show but had committed to a local event. I ran a local monthly show for a little over a year and it's a lot of work. Unfortunately I also had issues with the venue and we couldn't come to an agreement that worked for both of us so I decided to end the show. Bringing in players is a tricky thing. We do signings all the time and almost never make our money back from tickets sold the day of the signing. When we do its a pleasant surprise. The stuff we get signed for our inventory is where the profit is made, over time. So unless your an autograph dealer bringing in players is a loss leader in hopes of getting people to come to the show who otherwise wouldn't. If you decide to do another show next year and the schedule works out I would probably be interested.

[glynparson]

Scott put in a lot of effort and really tried to put on a top flight show. It was lightly attended but was not a total failure. Though I certainly didn't set the world on fire I didn't lose money either. If he gives it a shot again I will be back and will bring a showcase or two of better stuff to go along with my small show blow out material. Again I really appreciate your effort Scott you certainly tried.

[Leon]

Anyone currently involved with doing smaller and localized shows is having the same issues with attendance. My guess is that the smaller shows I set up at locally have 100-200 customer-collectors per day come through....and probably on the lower side of that. If I make 3-6 different sales I am happy. The key is to do it with as few expenses as is humanly possible while having it be well (as well) attended as is possible. That way you have limited the downside. It sounds like a lot of dealers are still with you and that is about 1/3 of the equation. If it were me I would just give it some time for thought and see how I would want to proceed. BTW, if you do it for the love of doing it it won't matter, if you do it for a profit there are probably better ways to do it in the hobby. Heck, maybe just be a spectattor and dealer at other shows? Good luck with whatever way you go. Hopefully these posts will give you more of a perspective ......Happy collecting!!

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

OK I needed a few days to unwind and reflect. Here's my thoughts. We had some AMAZING dealers. Glen Mechanick from these boards has SICK stuff. Glyn Parson is always a welcome addition, Dave Czuba had his usual big stuff including a '52 Topps Mantle, my partner Aaldert Oosting had a fantastic selection of Caramel and T206 cards (some of which are up in the BST section of this site now) and I had my usual run of vintage stuff. This is just the tip of the iceberg and mainly the guys who were located near me, I'm sure the other dealers were great as well but I didn't have much time to browse.

The attendance was poor, but as intended the $5 admission insured that those who came, came to buy. We had a number of issues with the venue which either need to be solved, or we need to relocate, some of these issues may well have impacted turnout to some degree.

The autographs were an unmitigated disaster. The guests themselves couldn't have been nicer, and the little bit of time I got to spend with them was probably the highlight of my day. They could see how things were going so they accommodated any and all requests and were more than happy to tell stories and just meet with people and shake hands etc... Unfortunately we lost thousands of dollars not just in fees, but in all the materials needed to do autographs. If we do move forward it will probably be years before we bring in autograph guests again.

In all with the low attendance I was excited by how positive the dealers were in general and their attitude was what made me consider how we might proceed. If you had asked me right after the show I would've (and did) say NEVER AGAIN!

Thanks again to all those who showed me support and encouragement!

[Rich Klein]

I keep pretty detailed records each show of what we have come in the door.

Our high for one day attendance was 154 and our low was 45 (When the people who run the Addison Convention show had their event the same day)

Almost always we make a profit (different amount each time) when we do not have guests and we usually break even/lose a little money when we have guests. That's why I try to keep the guests we have to a reasonable price point.

Our average attendance is between 75-190 total people and I personally am pretty mellow about letting in kids for free. I let in the kids for free on Saturday as a pre holiday special and we will always have free admission for our holiday show.

One question, were you charging $5 because of the venue's cost or because you wanted to make extra money. Personally, if I'm going to charge $5 at the door, I better have something to give to the customers.

Rich

[Snapolit1]

Another point I made a few months ago is that we on the east coast (particularly NY/NJ area) have a plethora of shows to go to. Regular massive shows in White Plains. Regular shows 3 or 4 places a month in No. Jersey. Massive show at Hofstra University a few times a year. When you collect specialized stuff like many of us do, it's tough sell to drive 2 or 3 hours to a small show unless you are sure it will have what you want. I went to a small show recently and walked in and out in 10 minutes. Nothing wrong with the show just zero I was interested in. It was only a 30 minute drive so no big deal. But if I had then to drive home 2 hours would have sucked. Folks in my area are spoiled as there is is literally a show I could drive to most weekends.'

I wanted to drive over to this one (about 2 hours from where I am) but had family matters to deal with.

I'm no expert on autographs, but I wouldn't expect you'd draw a big crowd unless it is some icon or a beloved local figure. This guy was a good hockey player or a good basketball player isn't going to get a lot of folks in the door. Hell, I was dying to meet Darryl Strawberry at the National and I'd be dammed if there was 20 people on line to meet him.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

It's not all about making a huge profit, we fully expected to take a loss the first time out the door. It's just that the size loss that we took is way bigger than we can handle. That being said if we had eliminated the autographs we would have been somewhere around break even which would have been fine.

My motives were threefold.

One, to fix the problems that I consistently see at shows. basically to promote a show the way I feel it should be promoted and correct the practices I see that, as a dealer at a show, make me less than thrilled.

Two, to give back. We were hooked up with the Jim Thorpe Area Sports Hall of Fame. The non profit that cares for the Jim Thorpe Memorial Park and Mausoleum. They are working on adding a third life-sized statue to the park and I wanted to be a part of that.

Three, hey who wouldn't like to make a buck? But again we didn't expect to make anything this time out.

As for the admission, I do another one day show at a location that has a lot of built in foot traffic. They pack the place, and each subsequent show there have been more people and less sales. I wanted to do a show for actual collectors, not bystanders and onlookers. As a way of paying them back we did drawings and contests for over $100 in "Dealer Bucks."

Never did I think of this as a get rich quick scheme. If that was my attitude I wouldn't have worked so hard and certainly wouldn't have spent so much. I want to build something for the future, and with the right tweaks I don't think, despite the huge losses, that it's out of the question.

[Rich Klein]

Scott;

More than you realize I get it:

1) I also begin running shows in DFW (I began with the Adat Chaverim show) as a way to give back to the community and run the shows the way I would want them run as a dealer.

That's why at that show, we GIVE you cards and an extra surprise in our bags with your suggested donation. That's correct for $1 -- you get over 100 cards plus an extra goodie for coming in the door. We were doing door prizes, but Texas State laws for non profits caused us to change what we do on that part of the show. I should also menti8on that when I began the non-profit show at Adat, I spent probably 2 hours total with good friend Mark Macrae on the phone who gave me great advice based on his 30+ years worth of experience on how to run a non-profit show.

2) That led to the monthly show I run. I want to run the show as a relaxed day for the dealers and for the customers and try to do something a little special each time. Even if it is something as simple as giving free cards to kids, free admission for kids and significant others and reduced table prices for vets/active service personnel or $90 in door prize scrip (We did all 3 of these last Saturday)
If we have a guest, I do become a bit stretched in terms of my time and attention but overall I hope the guest comes close to paying for himself (Unless his autograph is free with admission) and then with some items we get a low price point for items for sale. I can live with a small loss to get items signed. I.E. $100 loss on a show for 100 signed items is perfectly fine by me.

3) $5 admission cost. Now THAT is a pet peeve of mine. You yourself said you did the $5 admission to "intended the $5 admission insured that those who came, came to buy" That is why I asked about the venue cost. IMHO, if you want to limit your dealers and your collectors that is fine, but I get really frustrated here in DFW when there is a $5 or more (GTSM at $10) entry fee. For that price, you should be giving the customers something for just coming in the door. We have a promoter who does 4 shows in the DFW area each year and he has many issues. One of those issues is that he charges $5 for "early bird" and then $3 for the rest of the day. He calls that pre qualifies the customer. There was actually something last week who almost hauled off and hit him for having the gall to ask for $5 and he turned around and walked out. If the place costs you a lot of money, I get it, but if they worked with you on the price to help their cause, I would have been cheaper on both dealer tables and especially admission price.

As a person who has now run shows in DFW for nearly 3 full years now, all of this are things I feel very strongly about in terms of what I want to do for dealers and collectors

Rich

[Leon]

Rich is much more coherent behind a keyboard than in person.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by Leon

Rich is much more coherent behind a keyboard than in person.

Leon:

Those show days are really long for me. I'm just happy to say $1 please on those days

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

venue cost us over $2500 if you like that explanation better.

[Snapolit1]

My two cents, and not having done this even once, would be to drop the autograph part unless you have reason to believe you are tapping into something really special. If you are running a show in a Boston suburb and can get a Red Sox star from the 70s or 80s, that's cool. Getting a hockey player -- relatively few people are into hockey -- is not going to pack a line. Just my 2 cents.

Scott, I'm sorry that it didn't meet your expectations. I don't envy you trying to figure this out.

[Rich Klein]

Scott:

Trust me, I get the whole idea of room costs. I was just curious because if you drew 100 people at $5 each, would you have done as well to draw 200 people at $3 each. I know you say you do a show with great foot traffic but not a lot of serious collector traffic.

That helps, and if you want to PM me your details, we can discuss and figure out whether the $5 admission made sense. NOW, I will also say, if $1-2 of the admission went to the Jim Thorpe project, then to me that *IS* giving something back with the admission cost.

Just my MOO

Rich

[skelly]

A few thoughts... Drove out from NJ so about an hour and a half each way. The five dollar admission, absolutely no problem. I think that it gives a show some credibility and with the dealers that were present it was justified.

1) I am guessing this was not the promotors fault, but the signage wasn't great. Easy to find the gun show... the card show not so much.

2) The lighting in the room was funky. Truthfully gave me a headache / made me dizzy ( I was completely sober. Woke up, ran three miles, had an English Muffin and a banana and then went to the show. )

3) As usual, there were a couple dealers that were a little overpriced, but really seemed to be a great show if you were looking to fill some sets / have fun in discount / dollar type boxes looking for certain players or teams. Basically something for everyone... Even though I thought his prices were high, even had a gentleman who specialized in hockey!

Dave C, David B & Glen M- Enjoyed talking with each of them. Really good guys! Glen, I've seen your stuff twice now ( Great Meadows NJ Show ) Truthfully, I think your stuff just intimidates people, it's that unique! Just to see some of your items should be worth the price of admission for the average collector.

This show is on the cusp of being mentioned in the same breath as a White Plains or Philly Show. The dealer quality was that good. I think to take the next step, having SGC & maybe a couple local auction houses would be key.

My best buy of the day... On the way home at the Blakely indoor flea market- A Bob Lilly Rookie vg/ex condition for fifteen bucks. People in the area should check this guy out. Also had 62 /63 high numbers for a buck a piece.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Scott:

Trust me, I get the whole idea of room costs. I was just curious because if you drew 100 people at $5 each, would you have done as well to draw 200 people at $3 each. I know you say you do a show with great foot traffic but not a lot of serious collector traffic.

That helps, and if you want to PM me your details, we can discuss and figure out whether the $5 admission made sense. NOW, I will also say, if $1-2 of the admission went to the Jim Thorpe project, then to me that *IS* giving something back with the admission cost.

Just my MOO

Rich

We donated $1.00 from each admission, yes.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by skelly

A few thoughts... Drove out from NJ so about an hour and a half each way. The five dollar admission, absolutely no problem. I think that it gives a show some credibility and with the dealers that were present it was justified.

1) I am guessing this was not the promotors fault, but the signage wasn't great. Easy to find the gun show... the card show not so much.

2) The lighting in the room was funky. Truthfully gave me a headache / made me dizzy ( I was completely sober. Woke up, ran three miles, had an English Muffin and a banana and then went to the show. )

3) As usual, there were a couple dealers that were a little overpriced, but really seemed to be a great show if you were looking to fill some sets / have fun in discount / dollar type boxes looking for certain players or teams. Basically something for everyone... Even though I thought his prices were high, even had a gentleman who specialized in hockey!

Dave C, David B & Glen M- Enjoyed talking with each of them. Really good guys! Glen, I've seen your stuff twice now ( Great Meadows NJ Show ) Truthfully, I think your stuff just intimidates people, it's that unique! Just to see some of your items should be worth the price of admission for the average collector.

This show is on the cusp of being mentioned in the same breath as a White Plains or Philly Show. The dealer quality was that good. I think to take the next step, having SGC & maybe a couple local auction houses would be key.

My best buy of the day... On the way home at the Blakely indoor flea market- A Bob Lilly Rookie vg/ex condition for fifteen bucks. People in the area should check this guy out. Also had 62 /63 high numbers for a buck a piece.

Thanks, I was pretty excited by the quality of dealers, glad to see a show attendee was too. did we get to talk at all? I was crazed most of the day, so probably not. The signage was something promised and not delivered by the resort. The lighting sucked, but that has to be my fault as I saw the room back when I booked. I just never thought to ask "Does it get any brighter?" because they only turned on one bank of lights so I could look at the room. Both SGC and PSA have promised me they will be ready to go if I should continue, I just got to them too late this year.

[Leon]

One of the two shows I set up at locally puts out local signage early in the morning of the show. My guess is that those signs bring in around 10% more people....It is something that HAS to be done if you want the best attendance from a newer show, imo. I always have several folks tell me they came in from the sign they saw. It doesn't hurt that the show is across the street from the Frisco Roughriders (AA) stadium.

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Thanks, I was pretty excited by the quality of dealers, glad to see a show attendee was too. did we get to talk at all? I was crazed most of the day, so probably not. The signage was something promised and not delivered by the resort. The lighting sucked, but that has to be my fault as I saw the room back when I booked. I just never thought to ask "Does it get any brighter?" because they only turned on one bank of lights so I could look at the room. Both SGC and PSA have promised me they will be ready to go if I should continue, I just got to them too late this year.

[pherbener]

Originally Posted by Leon

One of the two shows I set up at locally puts out local signage early in the morning of the show. My guess is that those signs bring in around 10% more people....It is something that HAS to be done if you want the best attendance from a newer show, imo. I always have several folks tell me they came in from the sign they saw. It doesn't hurt that the show is across the street from the Frisco Roughriders (AA) stadium.

Split Rock is well out of the way in the middle of nowhere, so I don't think local signage would help too much, but it wouldn't hurt. When I did a show near there years ago, we put signs at the I80-PA Turnpike interchange and even had a plane with a banner promoting the show fly over the Pocono Speedway. (We did the show in conjunction with the NASCAR race). The meeting room was free for me cuz I worked there at the time!

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

My problem was the lack of signage on the long and winding drive from Route 903 to the Town Center where the card show was. Couple that with staff telling people, "No it's a Gun Show" (which was also there that day) and I wonder how many people who were actually coming just gave up?

I wasn't going to mention the resort's name though.