HOF Numbers Game: The Accumulators

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I understand your point, but I would never consider Yaz an accumulator...just because of that 1967 Season! Wow! Was that something special?


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When he hit .301?

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by bbcard1

When he hit .301?

Wow! Uh, No!

He won the Triple Crown and led the Red Sox to their first pennant in 21 years.

Led the league in the following categories:

R-112; H-189; HR-44(tied); RBI- 121; BA- .326; OBP- .418; SLG- .622; OPS- 1.040; OPS+- 193; TB- 360; WAR- 12.5

His Sept/Oct slash was .417/.504/.760

Boston lost WS in 7, but Yaz's line was 24AB-10H-3HR-5RIBI .400/.500/.840

Definitely Not an Accumulator's type year.



He hit .301 the following year leading the league and also leading with 119 walks.


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[drcy]

When he was playing, I would say Brett Favre was the best quarterback active. It could be reasonably argued there were better on the field players, but Favre played every game and even an average quarterback in the game is worth more than Johnny Unitas or Dan Marino on the sideline. Plus, he was a great quarterback anyway.

So longevity and games played is itself a desirable quality to the team. Though that's not to be confused with me saying that longevity and "accumulation" make a player a HOFer. I certainly don't think Harold Baines is a HOFer, no matter how many years and games he played.

[999Tony]

Not fair to Biggio to call him an accumulator or compare him to DH Baines without a positional adjustment.

Not much below the average 2b peak or career in the HOF:
65.5 career WAR / 41.8 7yr-peak WAR / 53.7 JAWS
Average HOF 2B (out of 20):
69.5 career WAR / 44.5 7yr-peak WAR / 57.0 JAWS

[rats60]

Originally Posted by 999Tony

Not fair to Biggio to call him an accumulator or compare him to DH Baines without a positional adjustment.

Not much below the average 2b peak or career in the HOF:
65.5 career WAR / 41.8 7yr-peak WAR / 53.7 JAWS
Average HOF 2B (out of 20):
69.5 career WAR / 44.5 7yr-peak WAR / 57.0 JAWS

Baines OPS + 121 Biggio OPS + 112. If Baines is an accumulator, as most would agree, then so are those who were worse hitters. Using Baines hit total as the floor, you get

Baines 121
Pete Rose 118
Beltre 116
Jeter 115
Yount 115
Biggio 112
Sam Rice 112
Ripken 112
Frisch 110
Brock 109
Ichiro 107
Vizquel 82

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by rats60

Baines OPS + 121 Biggio OPS + 112. If Baines is an accumulator, as most would agree, then so are those who were worse hitters. Using Baines hit total as the floor, you get

Baines 121
Pete Rose 118
Beltre 116
Jeter 115
Yount 115
Biggio 112
Sam Rice 112
Ripken 112
Frisch 110
Brock 109
Ichiro 107
Vizquel 82

In defense of Yount, his first 700 games, he had an 89 OPS. He was a full-time player at age 18, long before medicine and training had guys hitting the ground running at such a young age. He didn't know if he wanted to be a baseball player, or a golfer. Once he decided, and started adding weight training to his exercise regiment, he took off. From age 24 to 34, he was a .305 hitter, and OPS +'d 135. For those ten seasons, his 162 game averages: 108 runs scored, 194 hits, 38 doubles, 10 triples, 20 home runs, 92 RBI, 17 stolen bases, .365/.485/.850. Considering, especially, that this is between 1980 and 1989, those numbers for a shortstop/center fielder are pretty exceptional.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yaz had two great years, 67 and 70. Other than those years and a pretty good year in 69 though his BA went way down, the first half of his career wasn't so spectacular either.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

In defense of Yount, his first 700 games, he had an 89 OPS. He was a full-time player at age 18, long before medicine and training had guys hitting the ground running at such a young age. He didn't know if he wanted to be a baseball player, or a golfer. Once he decided, and started adding weight training to his exercise regiment, he took off. From age 24 to 34, he was a .305 hitter, and OPS +'d 135. For those ten seasons, his 162 game averages: 108 runs scored, 194 hits, 38 doubles, 10 triples, 20 home runs, 92 RBI, 17 stolen bases, .365/.485/.850. Considering, especially, that this is between 1980 and 1989, those numbers for a shortstop/center fielder are pretty exceptional.

His first 6 years and last 4 years he was an average hitter. That is half his career. The middle 10 years he had an OPS+ of 135 3 seasons. No doubt a Hofer, but Arky Vaughan had a career OPS+ of 136 and he played 85% of his games at shortstop.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by drcy

When he was playing, I would say Brett Favre was the best quarterback active. It could be reasonably argued there were better on the field players, but Favre played every game and even an average quarterback in the game is worth more than Johnny Unitas or Dan Marino on the sideline. Plus, he was a great quarterback anyway.

So longevity and games played is itself a desirable quality to the team. Though that's not to be confused with me saying that longevity and "accumulation" make a player a HOFer. I certainly don't think Harold Baines is a HOFer, no matter how many years and games he played.

IMO, Comparing longevity in Football and Baseball is like...well...

Comparing Apples and Zagnut Bars.

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