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  #11  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:57 AM
Prince Hal Prince Hal is offline
Duncan
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It's been a while since I read Bill James book "Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame" but I seem to remember that it was his opinion that playing conditions greatly favored the hitters of that era, including Kiki Shirley, and that their offensive stats are bloated. In his mind this diminished their value and the value of the player as a HOFer.
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  #12  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:01 AM
BillyCox3 BillyCox3 is offline
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Due to his early death, Cuyler's autograph is almost never encountered on premium/oversized items. This item measures in at nearly 11X14 if I recall. This style of signature is equally rare, dating to early in his career. My research indicates he only seemed to employ this signature variation for about two years (note the formation of the K's).
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File Type: jpg cuyler, ki ki23INV (2).jpg (81.3 KB, 262 views)
File Type: jpg cuyler, ki ki23INV (1).JPG (73.3 KB, 263 views)

Last edited by BillyCox3; 10-12-2017 at 10:02 AM.
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  #13  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:19 AM
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nat nat is offline
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The 1930s were an exceptionally forgiving time for hitters. Surpassed only by 1993-2004ish. Cuyler's on-base plus slugging percentage was only about 25% better than league average. Compare to Matt Holliday at 32% better. While they are obviously very different players (Holliday isn't about to lead the league in stolen bases, which Cuyler did several times), in terms of over all value, Cuyler and Holliday are pretty similar. Cuyler was certainly a good player (so is Holliday), but he's on the weaker end of the hall of fame.

Unfortunately I don't have any Cuyler cards to show, but I liked that DeLong.
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  #14  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:54 AM
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jb217676 jb217676 is offline
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Here's a cool 1931 PV Reyes Real Photo Postcard of Kiki Cuyler.
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File Type: jpg 1931 Reyes RPPC Kiki Cuyler.jpg (56.1 KB, 239 views)
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Last edited by jb217676; 10-12-2017 at 11:55 AM.
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  #15  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:17 PM
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trdcrdkid trdcrdkid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nat View Post
The 1930s were an exceptionally forgiving time for hitters. Surpassed only by 1993-2004ish. Cuyler's on-base plus slugging percentage was only about 25% better than league average. Compare to Matt Holliday at 32% better. While they are obviously very different players (Holliday isn't about to lead the league in stolen bases, which Cuyler did several times), in terms of over all value, Cuyler and Holliday are pretty similar. Cuyler was certainly a good player (so is Holliday), but he's on the weaker end of the hall of fame.
Jay Jaffe's new book "The Cooperstown Casebook" makes the same point, which is similar to what Bill James said in his Hall of Fame book 25 years ago. I don't have Jaffe's book at hand right now, but in terms of Wins Above Replacement (WAR) as calculated on baseball-reference.com, Cuyler had a lifetime total of 46.7. That's the 223rd best lifetime WAR total among position players, tied with Roy White, just behind Tommy Leach and Gene Tenace, just ahead of Mike Cameron and Matt Williams.
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  #16  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:16 PM
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SAllen2556 SAllen2556 is offline
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We have a cottage near Harrisville, Michigan. If you're ever up there stop by Ki Cuyler's restaurant. It's across the street from Harrisville state park, which is right on the shore of Lake Huron.

ki-cuyler-s-dugout-1.jpg
ki-cuyler-s-dugout.jpg
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  #17  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:05 PM
timn1 timn1 is offline
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Default Charles Denby Cuyler

My friend Chris found this at the Natl and kindly sold it to me - one of the coolest cards I've ever seen.
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  #18  
Old 10-12-2017, 04:58 PM
ls7plus ls7plus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nat View Post
The 1930s were an exceptionally forgiving time for hitters. Surpassed only by 1993-2004ish. Cuyler's on-base plus slugging percentage was only about 25% better than league average. Compare to Matt Holliday at 32% better. While they are obviously very different players (Holliday isn't about to lead the league in stolen bases, which Cuyler did several times), in terms of over all value, Cuyler and Holliday are pretty similar. Cuyler was certainly a good player (so is Holliday), but he's on the weaker end of the hall of fame.

Unfortunately I don't have any Cuyler cards to show, but I liked that DeLong.
+1, generally. Cuyler played in the greatest hitter's era ever (runs were actually easier to score in 1927, when Ruth hit his 60 HR's, than in 1998, when McGwire hit 70, when comparing teams' runs averages per game (I was curious about this several months ago, and actually checked). Hence the somewhat deflationary effect attached to players' stats established during the 1920's to early '30's. He was, however, an outstanding player, though probably in the lowest of the three echelons of HOF'ers I usually divide them into.

Happy collecting,

Larry

Last edited by ls7plus; 10-12-2017 at 04:59 PM.
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  #19  
Old 10-12-2017, 05:15 PM
ls7plus ls7plus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trdcrdkid View Post
Jay Jaffe's new book "The Cooperstown Casebook" makes the same point, which is similar to what Bill James said in his Hall of Fame book 25 years ago. I don't have Jaffe's book at hand right now, but in terms of Wins Above Replacement (WAR) as calculated on baseball-reference.com, Cuyler had a lifetime total of 46.7. That's the 223rd best lifetime WAR total among position players, tied with Roy White, just behind Tommy Leach and Gene Tenace, just ahead of Mike Cameron and Matt Williams.
The problem with WAR is that it yields premiums attached to players who clearly do not deserve them. That is precisely how the Cubs got stuck paying Jason Heyward 184 million dollars over 8 years. Dollars to doughnuts Theo Epstein would love to unload the guy, but I highly doubt that he could even get a bag of used batting practice balls for him. When your methodology yields absurd results, the intelligent person knows to question the methodology. Bill James' runs created formula, originally generated as a means of accurately predicting the number of runs a team would score and proving to be extremely reliable, when utilized in the individual player context is much more reliable in terms of offensive stats. In addition, both OPS+ and wRC+ give more accurate results regarding true player value, although you then have to make mental adjustments for defense and baserunning.

With regard to defense, I found it most interesting that about a month ago, Ken Rosenthal, confronting the gent who is in charge of calculating "defensive runs saved" (a key component of the current WAR), got the latter to admit on MLB Now that a defensive run saved is not actually a defense run saved, because the context of the defensive play is totally ignored. An outstanding play made with two outs and the bases loaded to save a single and hence a run is counted precisely the same as the same play being made with two outs and only a runner on first. Clearly, the latter scenario involves merely a fraction of a defensive run saved, based on run probability. Much more promising is the newer Statcast "outs above average," which takes into account catch probability based on actual data, and thus does not over-inflate defensive value.

Personally, I do not believe the creation of single stat to measure overall player value in such a way that it may be compared to all other players is even possible. It is based on the premise that the "five-tool" player (one who can hit, hit with power, throw, run and field) is more valuable than one who lacks one of the five or more. This is a fallacy for two reasons: (1) all tools are not equally valuable--they never have been and never will be; and (2) the value of each of the tools varies with the player's position.

But, to each his own,

Larry

Last edited by ls7plus; 10-12-2017 at 05:18 PM.
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  #20  
Old 10-12-2017, 05:45 PM
sb1 sb1 is offline
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His middle name is his mothers maiden name, just the luck of the draw I guess.
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