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  #1  
Old 09-04-2019, 04:56 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Default Completing the t218 Master Set Checklist - Cash Reward for proof of missing cards

Hi all,

I’m trying to finish the t218 Master Set, which of course requires a complete checklist (at precisely 630 confirmed right now). The more I try to find the cards I am missing scans of to prove they exist that I had marked as existing in my original research notes from a decade+ ago, the more convinced I am that some theoretical combinations simply do not exist at all and that I made an error in marking down the Blue Johnson and series 3 track cards. I am offering a cash reward (I’ll PayPal you through F&F, PM me your PayPal email) for reasonable photographic evidence that any of the following cards exist. Separate from the reward for proof of existence, I’ll overpay well above market for any of these cards if you have and want to sell!


Likely do not exist - $25 reward
1) H.J. Handy, Hassan Factory 30 back
2) H.J. Handy, Hassan Factory 649 back
3) Jack Johnson (Green), Tolstoi
4) Jack Johnson (Green), Mecca Factory 30 (No Series 2 Notation)



Might exist - $15 reward
1) Johnny Hayes, Mecca Factory 30, “Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters” series name
2) Johnny Hayes, Mecca Factory 649, “Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters” series name
3) Jack Johnson (Blue), Hassan Factory 30 back, without series 2 notation
4) Jack Johnson (Green), Hassan Factory 30 back, with series 2 notation
5) Abel Kiviat, Mecca Factory 30, “Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters” series name
6) Gusta Ljungstrom, Mecca Factory 30, “Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters” series name
7) Gusta Ljungstrom, Mecca Factory 649, “Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters” series name
8) James Rector, Mecca Factory 30, “Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters” series name
9) Edward Payson Weston, Mecca Factory 30, “Champion Athletes & Prize Fighters” series name
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  #2  
Old 09-08-2019, 09:13 PM
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scooter729 scooter729 is offline
Scott S
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I just checked through about 40 examples of those cards with no new ones to add to your list.

Curious how you feel about C52 being part of the T218 master set. I know it's technically a different set, but I've always thought of it as something I would want for a T218 master. (Admittedly, I am not chasing a T218 master, but have a regular T218 set along with a C52 set.) The fronts are the same (albeit with a smaller checklist for the C52s), and it's really similar to just being a different ad on the back.
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Old 09-09-2019, 09:54 AM
DaveW DaveW is offline
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Scott,
I’ve always thought that the C52 cards are no different than the Tolstoi cards - same fronts and text as the T218 cards but with a different brand (or no brand for the C52s). I think they are all really just a part of the T218 group. A better question is how do we know they were put out by the Imperial Tobacco company? Do you have any info on that? There’s nothing on the card to indicate that. I think that they were probably printed by American Lithograph as a generic set and sold to smaller brands (maybe just in Canada?). And why are there just 9 of the Series 2 cards but 50 each of Series 1 and 3?
- Dave

Greg,
Those are the same 13 cards that I’ve never seen. I would put all the Johnson and Handy cards in the not likely to exist category and the Series 3 track guys in the maybe exist category (but really rare). Hopefully, somebody will cash in on your offer.
- Dave
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Old 09-09-2019, 01:30 PM
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Marslife Marslife is offline
Cliff
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Default Master Update

Hey There!

Checked my 310 cards, no reward money due to me :-(

good news for the Master Set :-)

TTYL!

Cliff
__________________
T201 Master Set F30 (49/50) F649 (50/50)
"Mecca - Perfect Satisfaction"
T206 Back Set - 34/38
T227 Series of Champions Master Set 45/48
1948 Bowman - Baseball & Football (upgrading)
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  #5  
Old 09-09-2019, 02:48 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter729 View Post
I just checked through about 40 examples of those cards with no new ones to add to your list.

Curious how you feel about C52 being part of the T218 master set. I know it's technically a different set, but I've always thought of it as something I would want for a T218 master. (Admittedly, I am not chasing a T218 master, but have a regular T218 set along with a C52 set.) The fronts are the same (albeit with a smaller checklist for the C52s), and it's really similar to just being a different ad on the back.

I've flip-flopped on this issue several times, and have struggled to identify much of any evidence about the particulars of this set beyond the checklist. I'm collecting a C52 run along with my T218 set, though I'm only at ~35 cards or so.


First, like Dave, I question whether this was even a Canadian issue. It seems to me the primary evidence it is Canadian is that A) it has card numbers (which Imperial Tobacco often did), and B) that there is no factory number on the back (as required by American law, but in no other nation), which are both very circumstantial and could lead to many other conclusions too. I know of some sourced from Canada, but some of mine have come from original collections in the American south too, mixed with Mecca backs. I'm not aware of any real evidence that the set is indeed Canadian, though it very well may be true. I don't think the evidence is enough to assume Burdick's designation as a Canadian set is true.


To me, the key points for considering it part of T218 is that it was clearly printed by American Lithographic around the time of the T218 set (most 'reprint' tobacco sets like T223, T215 etc. have much lower quality images, as the original printing stones/plates wore down), sharing the same artwork. The key evidence against is that the checklist of the first series of C52 does not align with T218.


I think it is safe to say C52 series 1 was not printed concurrently with T218. A) It is missing Handy, who was released with T218-1 during its initial Mecca run and then pulled, and B) card #1 is Jack Johnson (Green), who was not printed in the initial run of T218-1 but added to the issue part way through (though I think a preponderance of the evidence suggests this actually has nothing to do with Handy being pulled, as is often said, as, for starters, both cards are very common with a Mecca 649 back). C) The 9 T218-2 cards that appear with duplicate numbers in the first series of C52.


To me, with the evidence available, it is a separate set, but closely related cousin, like T219. T219 was printed in the same period as T218, but not at the same time, and thus, is a cousin set instead of a back variation. I think there is a separation between the 3 sets based on A) the series composition being different and B) that they were printed at different times. More evidence about the actual time of printing and how/where/why the C52 backs were issued could easily change this conclusion, in my personal opinion.
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Old 09-09-2019, 02:55 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW View Post

Greg,
Those are the same 13 cards that I’ve never seen. I would put all the Johnson and Handy cards in the not likely to exist category and the Series 3 track guys in the maybe exist category (but really rare). Hopefully, somebody will cash in on your offer.
- Dave
I've got no PM or private reports yet, but if they do exist, hoping this will draw out the proof!


I'm pretty confident on the missing green Johnsons, 100% on the Handy's I've been looking for for years. I suspect the Fact. 30 series 3 track guys that are known with a 649 back may be out there, as some of the cards with this caption are fairly common (like Sellen) and others are very scarce (like Holmer).


I did not include it, but the other theoretical card is the Cloughan error, with a Mecca 30 back. I think this is the one most likely to surface, but if it does exist, almost certainly is the rarest single card in the set.
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Old 09-09-2019, 09:07 PM
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scooter729 scooter729 is offline
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For what it's worth, the majority of my cards from my C52 set (about 70 or 75 of the cards) were purchased about 10 years ago from a Canadian seller who found the whole group in an attic. So that always helped me believe this was indeed a Canadian set.
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Old 09-09-2019, 09:21 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter729 View Post
For what it's worth, the majority of my cards from my C52 set (about 70 or 75 of the cards) were purchased about 10 years ago from a Canadian seller who found the whole group in an attic. So that always helped me believe this was indeed a Canadian set.

I have one batch that came from Virginia, from a descendant of an original child collector of the 1910 period. Another batch came came with backstamps of the name of the presumed early collector, mixed C52 and Mecca cards. 3 more came from New York, and some from Canadian sellers but I'm not sure that's where the cards actually originated and they didn't wander around in the last hundred years. 70 C52's at once is one heck of a buy!
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