How much do you think 52 mantle should be worth?

[zljones]

I hope I do not tick anyone off with this thread but personally I think the 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle is far overrated. In my opinion having an HBV of $25,000-$30,000 is rediculous. It is not even his rookie care or even all THAT rare. I know it has alot of nostalgic value, but that much money I think is not right. My personal opinion I think the HBV should be $5,000 for NM raw. I of course understand the reason why it has such a high value, simply because of demand, beckett or anyone else did not really decide that value, it was the people that did.
I was wondering if there is anyone else that thinks this card is overrated and how do you think you should pay for a 52 topps Mantle HBV. How much would it be worth to you? My figure is $5,000. So obviously I will never own one, because in lower condition I will not even pay $1,000.

[jb217676]

Beckett has never decided what any particular card is worth. Only the buyer can decide that.

[steve B]

It is overrated, but it's also a card of one of the iconic figures of 1950's baseball. And even though it's a doubleprint, it's from one of the less available series of the decade, and from what's come to be regarded as The set of the 50's.

Great player,
Great set
From a highly romanticised era
Plenty of mystique and stories about the set.
Not rare, but fairly tough to find.
Not common, but enough out there that it's not impossible in the eyes of the have it now crowd.
And widely known, few cards are known well outside of collecting circles.

All theose factors are seldom found in one card. The Wagner, maybe the Plank, 52T Mantle, maybe a couple others but I can't think of any right away.

Yes, overrated as a card, but as an iconic pop culture item it's about right.

Steve B

[taborton101]

Steve B - great points - agree they all add to the value in one way or another.

Re: the scarcity of the '52 Mantle - has anyone run a recent pop. report on the '52 Topps Mantle for grades 6+ at PSA and SGC??...I agree that finding any example of the card, regardless of grade, is relatively easy...however, finding high-end examples (6+) is not nearly as easy...

...and what I've found with this Mantle in particular is that once you're 'hooked', you're hooked for good...ie, it has kind of a 'Mona Lisa' look to it...I started with a low grade example, and as time went by, my desire for owning a better example only increased...I know other folks who have the card too, and they've got the same story.

[BearBailey]

Overrated and Over Valued. I give it credit because it is a classic card, very popular player, and very high in demand. But it is not a rare or hard to find card. I think $2,000-$2,500 would be a fair price for a NM one. It would be higher than other classic 50 and 60 rookies due to demand(Although this is not Mantle's rookie). I would think it is Mantle, Rose, Clemente, Aaron in that order for demand. But compared to high numbers in 61, 66, 67 it is easy to find. Compared to 68 3d, 69 supers, 71 greatest moments, the card is not even close to being as hard to find as several of those cards. I have always said the 1952 topps set is the last topps set I will put together because I am unwilling to spend that kind of money on a 52 Topps Mantle. I would spend more on a 1951 Bowman Mantle than I would for a 1952 Topps.

[GasHouseGang]

It's over priced but it's from a great set and a high number. But it has been misidentified forever as "Mantle's rookie card", which of course, it isn't. But it's become iconic and will always be the Mantle card to own.

[T205]

I believe it should be in the range of $2,500 to $3,000 for an NM.

[zljones]

I agree with bearbaily and edward. Because I am not willing to pay much I will probably never own one, but maybe I will get lucky and find a garage sale or someone selling it that doesn't know what it is. If I had $25,000-$30,000 to spend on cards I would probably spend some on the 49 Leaf Satchel Paige rookie card, and some other 19th century cards and early 20th century cards.

[ALR-bishop]

Since there are usually several sales of this card monthly it seems to be worth what people pay for it.This argument is made all the time, and I do not quarrel with those who say that because of it's iconic status it is over sought and over valued by part of the hobby, particularly since it was a DP. But such "over valuation" has been going on for some time now. The market is what it is for now

SCD ( 2012) now lists both variations of the card . They mention the back stitching differences, but there are also several front differences. If both are ultimately added to the master set list, that will cause a stir. I hope they do since I have mine

[HaloFan]

I think one thing you have to consider is that there is a bias among the users of this board. Since most of us are very sophisticated collectors, we can't fathom why a card that's not rare be many times valuable than much rarer cards like '61 Dice Game and '68 3Ds. The problem with the latter mentioned sets is that they're so rare, they are mostly sought after only by esoteric collectors.

I will probably argue that the '52 Mantle not being scarce is probably a factor in why it has become so iconic. I know that if I need to sell off the one I have it's not a big deal because if I have the money, I can acquire another one fairly easily. There is a guy on this board that says he's bought and sold a '52 Mantle in various conditions many times and that's because he can! If I have a card from the '61 Dice Game set, once I sell it, it's going to be much harder to replace it no matter how much money I have.

The '52 Mantle reportedly had iconic status from way back. I think Ted Z once said it was big deal in 1952, so its place in the hobby will probably stay there. On this board it may not be a big deal, but to other casual collectors and even non-collectors the card is very significant.

Craig

[ALR-bishop]

Craig---I think you make great points. I have completed the 67 Punch out set and am about done with the 67 ( scarcer than the 64s) Stand Ups. I have the two Mantle pose variations in the Punch Outs and the 67 Mantle Stand Up. I also have a set of the 67 Discs with the Mantle. All of these are much tougher than the 52 Mantle and yet I paid less for each of them than the 52s

The Punch Outs have small pictures and the discs have never been too popular, but the 67 Stand Up is a great Mantle picture. Still scarcity and lack of knowledge likely does hold down "demand"...and they are not part of an iconic set.

I do not have the 61 Dice Mantle, but have seen it sold twice for well under what a top condition 52 would get. I only have one of the Dice cards, Kaline.

I also picked up one of the Mantle Masks, listed in SCD as a 63 Topps send away. It is also really scarce ( and may not actually be a Topps product ) . I paid a lot for it, but know of one that went unsold on ebay for .99 cents due I think to to a poor description.

One of the 52 Mantles I have is ungraded, from my younger days, and might grade a 3-4. The other, which I got to get the 2nd variation is an OC 8. Almost all of my cards and sets are ungraded for album display purposes

It can be argued all day that the 52 is overpriced, but if it keeps selling at high prices even in a down economy, that is all that really counts if you want one

[smtjoy]

Nice thread, I think its a great iconic card and would love to have one in my collection and one day will buy or trade for one.

I do think its a bit overpriced but not sure it will go down at all but I just dont see it going much higher in the future other than the 9-10's which will keep rising.

The PSA pop on it is over 1000 graded with over 200 PSA 6 and above. Thats a lot of cards out there even with resubs. I dont see it as hard to get at all, anyone with the money can get one everyday, heck how many does 707 have for sale alone? Just checked ebay and there are 25 for sale today, common yes, desirable yes, expensive yes.

[glchen]

I think the card is overpriced. It's part of a great set, but not a rookie. In a way, I would compare it to a Cracker Jack Cobb card, which is a highly collected set and a highly desirable pose. It is even possible to compare it to the 1914 CJ Mathewson, which is also not a rookie, but a highly desirable pose within a popular set. I think the card should be priced at a 20% premium to a 52 Topps Mays card. That is, it deserves to be priced high, but just not that high. The card's already entered iconic status, so I doubt it'll go down much however.

[Brianruns10]

All valid points regarding scarcity (DP, twice as many made as SP highs, and he was a popular player, and more likely to be saved than lesser known highs), it is not his true rookie by any stretch, and those who would argue even Mantle as a player is overrated.

But what I think it comes down to value wise, what can't be overestimated, is the card's artistic and pop-culture importance.

Make no mistake, these cards are works of art, and the Mantle, I would wager, is one of the two or three most beautiful cards in arguably the most beautiful set of baseball cards EVER. The colors, the composition, the pose, the look in Mantle's eyes...it gives one chills.

And it is a pop culture icon of the first order. I'm talking Action Comics #1, Radio Flyer, Coca Cola. It is pure concentrated 50s nostalgia. It represents an era long gone, or perhaps one that never existed at all.

To be honest, I'm not a huge baseball fan. I hardly watch the modern stuff. But I love these cards to death, because of what they represent: kids spending their lawn mower money, racing to the drugstore to buy the new series, and trade 'em with their friends. Kids loved these cards, looked up to these players who were your older brother, the President and Greek Gods rolled up into one. Kids like my Dad, who'll tell me his stories about buying these cards, and admires that '52 Joe Adcock, or his old, beat up '53 Musial color.

These were cards, I believe, that helped in a small way to break down racial barriers. Blacks were mixed in with whites, and treated with the same reverence. Who were the first three NY players of the high series? Mantle, Robinson and Thomson. In '53 Robinson opened up the set. You can't tell me that didn't subtly indoctrinate impressionable kids to see black players as just like the white ones, and to judge them on their skills as players, rather than their skin tone.

That's what I love about these cards, and why I collect them, and why I think the Mantle card isn't so overrated, because it has a lot, lot more going for it than just baseball. He's up there with the t206 Wagner. I mean, when you think about it, who cares about Wagner? He's dead, and so are just about all the people who were around to remember him when he played. Yet people still clamber for his card, because now, they represent far more than mere populations or player stats. They are icons of Americana that transcend the hobby itself, and that's why they are so valuable.

At least, that's how I see it.

[doug.goodman]

The fact that they keep selling, proves that they aren't overpriced.

And, I don't have one.

And, I collect variations.

Doug

[Volod]

Of course, TedZ is right that the card was a big deal even in 1952. Mantle was a prized rookie and a NY Yankee, so his first Topps card, in Topps first colorized, supersized set, made it an even bigger deal. About thirty years later, when millions of 1950's kids began to recollect as the hobby exploded in the early '80's, that card again became the focus of most wantlists, whether it was warranted or not. I can recall getting back into collecting at that time and seeing the card offered in SCD in nice condition for a few hundred bucks. Just a couple of years later, it abruptly jumped into the thousands and then into the tens of thousands. So, to me, its current valuation is just a reflection of the number of collectors who surged into the hobby enmass in the 80's. Maybe the card will gradually decline in importance - and value - as those folks slowly fade away, especially since, unlike the Wagner card, there should be plentiful numbers of the Mantle card well into the future.

[zljones]

Briansruns10 that was beautifully written makes me glad I returned to this hobby last year and sold my militaria collection for cards. And even though I will not pay the asking prices for the 52 Mantle, it is still a beautiful card.

[HaloFan]

Craig---I think you make great points. I have completed the 67 Punch out set and am about done with the 67 ( scarcer than the 64s) Stand Ups. I have the two Mantle pose variations in the Punch Outs and the 67 Mantle Stand Up. I also have a set of the 67 Discs with the Mantle. All of these are much tougher than the 52 Mantle and yet I paid less for each of them than the 52s

The Punch Outs have small pictures and the discs have never been too popular, but the 67 Stand Up is a great Mantle picture. Still scarcity and lack of knowledge likely does hold down "demand"...and they are not part of an iconic set.

I do not have the 61 Dice Mantle, but have seen it sold twice for well under what a top condition 52 would get. I only have one of the Dice cards, Kaline.

I also picked up one of the Mantle Masks, listed in SCD as a 63 Topps send away. It is also really scarce ( and may not actually be a Topps product ) . I paid a lot for it, but know of one that went unsold on ebay for .99 cents due I think to to a poor description.

One of the 52 Mantles I have is ungraded, from my younger days, and might grade a 3-4. The other, which I got to get the 2nd variation is an OC 8. Almost all of my cards and sets are ungraded for album display purposes


Al--very nice.

I'm not sure the value of the '52 Mantle will drop all that much even after the older collectors are gone. There is at least one other younger person <35 on this board who acquired the card because it took him back to when he was 12 years' old and rummaging through the new Beckett to check to see its value. There are more younger admirers of Mickey Mantle then we think.

I know a girl from Mexico who when I mentioned the card, she immediately knew who Mantle was and understood its value. Granted she learned of his iconic status via Antiques Roadshow, but this shows that his legacy is not withering anytime soon.

Craig

[zljones]

Originally Posted by HaloFan

Craig---I think you make great points. I have completed the 67 Punch out set and am about done with the 67 ( scarcer than the 64s) Stand Ups. I have the two Mantle pose variations in the Punch Outs and the 67 Mantle Stand Up. I also have a set of the 67 Discs with the Mantle. All of these are much tougher than the 52 Mantle and yet I paid less for each of them than the 52s

The Punch Outs have small pictures and the discs have never been too popular, but the 67 Stand Up is a great Mantle picture. Still scarcity and lack of knowledge likely does hold down "demand"...and they are not part of an iconic set.

I do not have the 61 Dice Mantle, but have seen it sold twice for well under what a top condition 52 would get. I only have one of the Dice cards, Kaline.

I also picked up one of the Mantle Masks, listed in SCD as a 63 Topps send away. It is also really scarce ( and may not actually be a Topps product ) . I paid a lot for it, but know of one that went unsold on ebay for .99 cents due I think to to a poor description.

One of the 52 Mantles I have is ungraded, from my younger days, and might grade a 3-4. The other, which I got to get the 2nd variation is an OC 8. Almost all of my cards and sets are ungraded for album display purposes


Al--very nice.

I'm not sure the value of the '52 Mantle will drop all that much even after the older collectors are gone. There is at least one other younger person <35 on this board who acquired the card because it took him back to when he was 12 years' old and rummaging through the new Beckett to check to see its value. There are more younger admirers of Mickey Mantle then we think.

I know a girl from Mexico who when I mentioned the card, she immediately knew who Mantle was and understood its value. Granted she learned of his iconic status via Antiques Roadshow, but this shows that his legacy is not withering anytime soon.

Craig

You are correct I am 30 years old and I have always dreamed of having a Mickey mantle card now I own three. As long as the hobby remains in general then the love for the vintage cards will last. I am now a grown man and have a real job and can finally afford cards such as Mickey Mantle cards. I remember when I scraped up $35 in 1991 at the age of 10 and peddled on my bike to a local card shop and said to the shop owners "I want a Hank Aaron rookie card" they told me I could not afford it and instead they talked me into buying a 1962 Topps Warren Sphann. I knew nothing about Warren Sphann back then but I bought it because it was from 1962 and it was old, and the men running the store were persuasive even though I did not really want it. When I took it home my mother was furious with the baseball card shop for selling me a card I didn't know squat about. She drove me down to that shop and told the owners to give me my money back, I was actually hoping they would because I had the buyers remorse and just wanted to save up for a Hank Aaron rookie card, but they refused to refund her and I got stuck with a card that eventually got stolen from me 6 years later. I am glad that I now own a 1954 topps Hank Aaron, but see I remembered those cards that I dreamed about 20 years ago and I persued them.

[Theoldprofessor]

One of the best teaching opportunities of your life stands before you right now. When my son was about 10, we began going to the National every summer. (That was so long ago that "Beckett" meant the Beckett-Eckes Price Guide.) Pretty soon he was picking up cards, asking "What's this one worth?" "What's that one worth?" Easy. "Son, it's worth exactly what you can get for it, no more no less."

The '52 Topps Mantle is worth a lot because people are willing to pay that kind of money for a really good copy. In the Thirties, the T206 Wagner was worth about $50, because that's what people who bought cards were willing to pay for it. Now some Wagners are worth millions. What changed? The card? Nah. Just its notoriety. Its value is determined by how badly people want it and how much they are willing to sacrifice to get it.

This can't be hard to understand.

[vintagecpa]

Put me in on the side of people that think the 52 Mantle is overpriced also. However, every Mantle from the 50's and 60's is also overpriced IMO, but it is what it is.

I believe there are a fair number of non-baseball card collectors that own a T206 Wagner or a 1952 Mantle, much like a rich non-art person might buy a Picaso. I would speculate that a decent percentage of 1952 Mantle owners don't own a single other 1952 Topps card, and several probably don't own another baseball card, period. When you add these groups together, you have created a demand that justifies the current price level.

[ChiefBenderForever]

It's the postwar card of all cards, not overated at all in my opinion, $2500-3000 for a nrmt ? Add another 90k and you will be able to get one. Rare, no but high demand, yes !! Might not be his true RC but is his Topps RC and Topps is king just like T206..............

[ALR-bishop]

Given the ready supply, a seller who "overprices" a 52 Mantle simply won't sell it. But if people are saying those that sell are overpriced, given that sales occur weekly, they ought to publish their theory in an economics journal. Seems like wishful thinking to me. Of course the market ( demand) could go down for that card or all cards in the future. Same as could happen for stocks, bonds, gold, art or any other precious stones, metals or collectibles.

[doug.goodman]

Supply and demand. Pretty simple. I think the Mantle probably qualifies as one of the hardest cards to "overprice".

But, as with any item that is in demand, not only will there always be people asking for a price that may be defined as "too high", there will often be people willing to pay that price.

I'm pretty sure that more Mantles exist than the other 1952 high numbers, but that doesn't change the fact that the Mantle is "worth" more than the other "more rare" cards.

Too bad that I "need" both variations for my set.

Doug

[zljones]

Indeed looking at it from a supply demand/economic perspective, this card is not overpriced or overrated. I did not start this thread because I do not understand the economics of supply and demand, I simply wanted to see if I am the only one that would not pay top dollar for this card.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by zljones

Indeed looking at it from a supply demand/economic perspective, this card is not overpriced or overrated. I did not start this thread because I do not understand the economics of supply and demand, I simply wanted to see if I am the only one that would not pay top dollar for this card.

May of us won't (or in my case can't) pay top dollar for this card, that's why I'm constantly on the hunt.

I'm also hoping to stumble upon a Wagner T206 one of these days buried in a book, or something. That's how I got my Wagner M101-2, so you never know...

Doug

[zljones]

That is something I need to do. Maybe I need to hit garage sales.

[ALR-bishop]

Is that why you have been rummaging through books at the library Doug

[Volod]

When I was a starving college student, I used to spend a lot of weekends in the massive campus library, which held millions of volumes of long-forgotten lore. One night, as I was wandering through the maze of stacks on the 11th floor, I suddenly stopped and, for no reason that I was aware of, reached up and pulled down a book from the top shelf, opened it, and discovered a fifty dollar bill that someone had been using as a bookmark. So, everyone, start fishing through those musty old tomes at your local library - the mind works in bizzare directions.

[fkw]

a bit less than the 1952T Eddie Mathews

The Eddie Mathews card from the same year is a true high number and a true rookie unlike the double printed 2nd year card of Mantle.

Plus Mathews has very similar career numbers overall

If Mantle played with Pittsburgh, he would be in the same value range as Mathews or Killebrew IMO... but we all know he was in NY and that the 2 most overrated players of all time played with the NY AL team MM and DJ

[Brianruns10]

Originally Posted by fkw

a bit less than the 1952T Eddie Mathews

The Eddie Mathews card from the same year is a true high number and a true rookie unlike the double printed 2nd year card of Mantle.

Plus Mathews has very similar career numbers overall

If Mantle played with Pittsburgh, he would be in the same value range as Mathews or Killebrew IMO... but we all know he was in NY and that the 2 most overrated players of all time played with the NY AL team MM and DJ

Oh yes, I think the Matthews is the sleeper of the set, and underrated, given its scarcity, the fact it suffered the same fate as the Pafko, being one bookend in the set. And it's damn near impossible to find well centered.

It's why a few months ago I jumped at the chance to get a really gorgeous, almost dead centered Matthews in PSA 5. I paid a little more than SMR for it, and I don't regret it, because I'm convinced it will at least hold its value, and probably go up as more and more realize what a hard card it is, compared to the relatively plentiful, though financially prohibitive Mantle.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by fkw

If Mantle played with Pittsburgh, he would be in the same value range as Mathews or Killebrew IMO... but we all know he was in NY and that the 2 most overrated players of all time played with the NY AL team MM and DJ

Right, and can you imagine if Clemente had been a Yankee rookie? Given his stats and his unfortunate ending, he would probably be touted as the greatest athlete who ever lived - at least in Gommorah - I mean Gotham.

[ThoseBackPages]

Originally Posted by fkw

a bit less than the 1952T Eddie Mathews

The Eddie Mathews card from the same year is a true high number and a true rookie unlike the double printed 2nd year card of Mantle.

This is what i thought of when i opened the thread

[ls7plus]

While iconic, the Mantle card is certainly not rare, and the seemingly endless stream of them in one auction after another is to me an enormous turn-off. It is true that in ExMt or better, the card is not that easy to find, but have you noticed the trend towards (fully disclosed) card restoration lately? If that becomes the norm, owners of lower grade cards will have a realistic option to "upgrade" their own examples, thereby at least satisfying the "eye appeal" factor (although a demonstrably original in higher grade would still always be worth more, IMO). Definitely overvalued for the long-term, and in for a significant fall in value after the baby boomers have moved on.

An often discussed subject, but still a thread that makes for interesting discussion yet once more!

Larry

[zljones]

I agree I think it will drop after some years, it has not really gone up in many years, I have price guides from the 90s and it has lagged in climbing in value. Pre war cards are timeless; therefore, will continue to rise. Postwar will also be timeless but I do not think anything will be worth more than $10,000 in the future, in my opinion.

[Volod]

Geeez, Larry - "...overvalued for the long-term, and in for a significant fall in value after the baby boomers have moved on." Can we geezers get out of the way fast enough for you millennials?