Mastro Legends Auction Ended

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Posted By: Tony N

Mastro's Legends auction ended last night, and some of the lots went really low in my opinion. I understand the economy has to be factored in, but I thought the Tip Top, Brunners Bread, and PSA 8 Mantle were steals.

Some highlights with the juice:

E107 Matty - $120,000

PSA 8 Mantle 52 Topps - $78,000

D322 Tip Top Set - $48,000

M110 Sporting Life Set - $78,000

D304 Brunners Bread Set - $48,000

Tony

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Tony, your conclusion that these prices were steals is based upon looking at the prices some of these cards and sets have received in the past couple years in other auctions -- which reflect that the values had really taken off during this period. Problem is, I don't believe that many of the previoulsy-reported prices are real (and I know this with certainty in some cases). So, I can't say that the prices of some of these lots received last night were actually "steals"; they may in fact simply be the appropriate prices without any fraud factored in. That the sad recipient of weak auction prices is Mastro, of course, is hilariously ironic.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The prices the D304 and D322 went for yesterday seem about what they should be. On the other hand, the prices similar cards went for in the past made absolutely no sense to me.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

You know with certainty Jeff? Are you privy to the FBI's investigation?

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Posted By: dan mckee

Is that the same Tip Top set that Mastro sold that was found in a Baltimore Row home? I thought that set brought $100K 1st time?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan, why would I have to be privy to the FBI investigation to know with certainty that some previously reported price on card(s) were not what they were reported to be?

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Posted By: andy becker

what grade was the d304 set?

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Posted By: barrysloate

The Cobb and Wagner were both SGC 40, and the balance ranged from EX-MT to Poor, with most cards Very Good.

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Posted By: andy becker

thanks barry

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Posted By: rand

i just dont get the 52 mantle prices, when you can buy 33 goudey babe ruth cards in the same grade for much much less. the card is very liquid, not tough to find in any grade throughout the year.

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Posted By: leon

"demand".....that explains the price of the '52 Mantle

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Posted By: Rich Klein

EVERY hobby story about a collector asked them about 3 cards

T206 Wagner
1933 (34) Goudey Lajoie
1952 Topps Mantle

Those 3 cards have been for years the "holy trinity" of cards.

If you think some card(s) have replaced any of those 3 -- let's hear your opinion and why?

Rich

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Rich is correct. Many, many collectors will tell you that the 52T Mantle is the card they most aspire to own. The Mantle is second most famous baseball card after the Wagner, and is legitimately significant as the key card from Topps first full length baseball card set. I prefer Mantle's 51 Bowman, but that's just one vote.

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Posted By: Bob

A lot of card collectors in their 50's and 60's worshipped the Mick and there are a slew of us out there. In 30 years I think his card prices would plummet when we start dying off as opposed to Ruth's which should always be strong.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jeff, saying you know something with certainty presumes you have insider knowledge of what's going on with the FBI investigation...I was merely asking if you do.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Bob, my 7 year old's favorite player for a while there was Mickey Mantle...I let him watch 61* and he watched that movie over and over.

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Posted By: Anthony S.

Bob,

Potential advances in cryonics should keep the Mantle market strong.

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Posted By: barrysloate

61* is right at the top of my favorite baseball films of all-time. I was especially impressed with how Barry Pepper and Thomas Jane so resemble Roger and Mickey.

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Posted By: leon

I thought the prices realized were exactly in line with what I thought going into this auction. I only looked at the few cards, and card groups, I have knowledge of though. regards

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Don't discount the possibility of a holomickey. Holograms can get drunk (as can mechanoids, of course), but can't sign autographs.

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Posted By: Jeff Prizner

Just curious exactly which reported card prices turned out to be fake?

Doesn't surprise me at all, just wondering which lots you were referring to in particular.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

"Jeff, saying you know something with certainty presumes you have insider knowledge of what's going on with the FBI investigation...I was merely asking if you do."



Dan, I'm not sure what they're putting in the water in Nebraska but I would suggest bottled water going forward! I said I had certainty that the listed sales of a card or cards is not what it has been reported to be. How that translates into my having "insider knowledge" of the FBI investigation is one hell of a leap -- especially since last time I checked I'm not employed by the FBI or privy to the full scope of their investigations. In addition, as a defense lawyer I would never suggest that whatever the FBI collects in an investigation is information that is 100% certain.

Edited to add: to clarify a bit, I wouldn't claim that I have knowledge with 'certainty' about any fact unless I learned it firsthand. Speaking to people who witnessed something would hardly qualify for 'certain' knowledge.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

The allegations against Mastro are for shill bidding...you said "Problem is, I don't believe that many of the previoulsy-reported prices are real (and I know this with certainty in some cases)."....I took that to mean you have knowledge that the rest of us don't about the shilling charges. That's why I asked if you were privy to the FBI's investigation. It's that simple...if I misunderstood you (Which I apparently did) then I'm sorry.

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Posted By: Darren

Sloate,

I agree. Billy Crystal did a great job producing 61*. Casting was excellent. It is atop my movie lists.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

61* is a great film however some things bother me about it...Such as Bob Cerv being shown as a Yankee at the start of 1961 (He began the year with the Angels). Cerv used to live just down the street from me and I know his grandkids and they say he was not happy with how he was portrayed...sort of as a big, dumb oaf when in fact he was a college graduate and had been a teacher at different times.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dan, no problem. And who knows for certain other than the government what they are investigating regarding Mastro?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Cerv was a bit of a goofy character in the movie...but of course I have no idea what he was actually like.

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Posted By: Joe D.

Dan....



I consulted the most wise oracle I know and was given this answer...













I can shake it and ask again?

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Posted By: D. Bergin

Ok, apparently I haven't bid in a Mastro auction in awhile. I don't like to sound like a cheapskate but anybody else bothered by the $75 registration fee for the privilege of bidding in their auctions?

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Posted By: leon

Call their customer service....Just mention Net54 Vintage Baseball Card Forum and your registration will be free. All members in good standing can register for free. LMK if there is an issue and I will help out.....take care

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Posted By: D. Bergin

Great Leon. Thanks!!!!

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Posted By: Rob D.

And be sure to mention Lichtman's name when you call.

On second thought, scratch that.



Best double-play combo ever? E-mail for scans and Bump for price reduction

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Posted By: dan mckee

I love magic 8 ball Joe!

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Posted By: Jim VB

"And be sure to mention Lichtman's name when you call."


Sure. Because that gets you the $150 registration special (and no pesky catalog in the mail.)

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Posted By: leon

It's the tape...remember....the tape. Lichtman pays $75 registration and $75 for investigation-proof tape.....

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hey, I love paying that $75 registration fee which gives me the opportunity to get defrauded!

Check out this great card that was on ebay tonight, a 1916 Herpolshemier's Cobb sold by Mile High: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&it em=190270939971

Last time the card was sold at auction? October 1 -- in a Mile High auction!
http://www.milehighcardco.com/LotDetail2.aspx?lotid=11390

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Posted By: peter ullman

I used to own that cobb...they re-holdered it!

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Posted By: Jim VB

Well, this would seem to rebut any argument that the "big" auction houses command substantially higher prices.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Peter- that's the one you consigned to me, and we got $1988 for it. So the winner consigned it to Mile High, and now the "second time" it was sold it went for $38 more. Nothing like rolling over those profits.

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Posted By: Matt

Jeff - nice detective work!

Is what they did illegal?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I guess the winner of the card from Mile High in October was so impressed with Mile High's marketing in that auction that he immediately turned around and allowed Mile High to re-sell it on ebay. And lucky for that winner that a real, recent value was entered into VCP to guide all bidders last night as to the card's true value. Yeah, that's the ticket.

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Posted By: Matt

OK, let me re-phrase: Is it illegal for an auction house to say something has sold when in fact it was a house account that was the high bid?

Edited to add:
I assume this would be some kind of fraud, but then again, I also would have guessed that it would be illegal to bid from a house account without disclosing that fact to bidders.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

the Mile High winner renegged and Brian stuck it on ebay just to get rid of it. Who knows.......

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Posted By: boxingcardman

This is perhaps not the best case to shout "fraud" on:

1. State law dictates what auctioneers can do and how auctions can be run. Many states allow reserves of various formats (including in some cases hidden reserves) to be placed on lots. Depending on Colorado law and on the auction rules stated, that could have been what happened and might have been legal. The Ebay sale could have resulted from a failure to reach a hidden reserve or a house account bid to create a reserve. The consignor also might have decided to let MHCC take a shot at Ebay at a reduced price.

2. Apparently, there was a real sale of this exact card at $38 less than the auction price the month before the auction, so I don't see a buyer taken advantage of here w/r/t price manipulation. If anything, the flipper (whoever it was) is the one who got hosed after paying consignment and/or Ebay fees.

3. Setting aside the legality and ethics of the situation to focus on theory, a house account purchaser could do quite well flipping cards from auction to Ebay, depending on the deal it made with the consignor. If you figure that anywhere up to 40% of the total on the sale (including vig) goes to the house anyhow for an auction, the opportunity is there to pick up cards at a substantial dealer advantage. You could selectively bid on lots that you would like to own secure that the outcome would either be your company owning the lot at a discount or your company making money on the bidding. Whether a subsequent Ebay sale made money or not enough to make up for the listing, final value and paypal fees would depend on the deal the auctioneer had with the consignor and the auctioneer's skill in selecting which lots to chase. A side bonus would be the creation of "verifiable" transactions for VCP to report on to give the next bidders comfort that they are in the ballpark for the card. Again, not saying it's right, just pretty smart.

Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: dan mckee

Yea, what Adam said.

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Posted By: Matt

"Setting aside the legality and ethics of the situation to focus on theory..."

Is such a "business plan" legal in certain states?

That is something...not sure if smart is the word for it.